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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by glebluk View Post
    ^ This! It should be a loading screen Tip
    This^ +1
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  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by Nexxia View Post
    Where does this type of player appear from on our horizon? This new and exciting individual. That says it will be the same as every release, even though every release has been utterly different. They predict the expac will fail even though its not even released. Its like they want wow to fail yet continue to play. I just... cant... Oh wait its an elitist, nvm.
    Actually, I find that such players are just confused about what "good" and "bad" are. "Good" players are the ones who know what to expect. They're the ones who can look at a warrior doing low dps and say, "I need you to to get off the keyboard and start using your mouse and strafing keys for movement because you're OOR for 43% of your white damage swings. If you don't have that all set up, do it now and we'll go duel outside so you can test it out, because these other 23 people would rather wait 10 minutes than wipe again." The "bad" players are the ones who say, "WTF low dps fail!!"

    The good players in cataclysm are going to be the people who can coach the people who forgot what CC was in Wrath. I can't count the number of LFD groups doing Flamelash for the pre-Cata event had at least one death if not a wipe because not standing in the fire was a new concept to them. They expected the healer to just push through it because they were so used to so completely out-gearing everything that that was a reasonable response. In some cases, they're not even bad players, just players who have forgotten that the environment can pose a challenge.
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  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymos View Post
    o.O

    this is a game, each one want something like the REAL LIFE. you CAN'T push your will or your wisdom to someone else.

    For ME, this is what is about this topic, teaching things that for some is basic and for others is the first step to be a excelent raider.

    Good luck guys that want keep talking about "i did it and you dont", "i'm better then you", "you are a noob and i kill HLK before the release to beta", "it's my ball, and if i dont play, no one will!"

    EDIT: sorry about the WALL TEXT OF DOOM =X
    I agree with this guy entirely. Any comment made becomes and excuse to throw poop. Needless to say I will enjoy this unfolding immensely over the next months, alot of ppls artificially inflated epeen is going to get snapped off. The OP had alot of insight into the issues that will affect players in cata, it would do well to not ignore, unless you want to be floorsauce. As for people overpowering the heroic dungeon level content even, at the last stages of beta they gave premades full t11 and they still were wiping all over the heroics and the raids arent easier than the heroic btw, so I wonder when we will get this game changing OP gear (over a year will be my guess).

  4. #724
    Mechagnome champ3000's Avatar
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    People forget that the majority of the player-base aren't hardcore raiders. Like my sister, who farms herbs all day and levels alts. The hardcore raiders may get the gear and the glory, but the casuals, baddies, and questers keep the servers running. You can believe that.

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    6.) You are NOT the master of the group. Many tanks in WotLK have become rude and overconfident due largely to their short queue times. I can be guilty of this as well. Many have a tendency to treat the other members of their groups with the expectation that whatever THEY says goes, because the group cannon function without them. Please, I beg of you, if you are one of these tanks, remember that you cannot solo this content. You need your group as much as they need you.
    This.

    People are (IMO) misinterpreting this part here. Read this as: YOU ARE NOT GOD'S GIFT TO THE GROUP. Yes, the role of the tank is to traditionally handle pulling, rest breaks, marking, deciding what mobs you want CC'd, etc... That's fine. It was even mentioned above. That's not what this comment is referring to. Do all that, it'll help make the group run smoother.

    This one is to not act all high and mighty and elitist because you are the tank. Saying whatever you want to everyone and generally being a dick. Rolling Need on everything because "Fuck it, I'm the tank and I do what I want." Personally, I *will* be voting off tanks who act like dickheads. You can perform your role as a tank without acting like a douchebag. Tanks who pull 10 groups without the healer, die, and then bitch. Or don't wait for healer mana. It's primarily saying that you are NOT the king of those in your group. You are replaceable like anyone else. And, just because you are the tank, it doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want and act like a child.

    There's the opposite to this too, the healer who pulls mobs because they don't like the tank's pace. The pally who bubbles and charges into a room to pull so the tank has to scramble and pick up the mobs off them. The hunters with misdirect pulls onto the tank before the tank is ready.

    I'm sick of people that act like tools in groups, and with the new dungeons, I can see a lot of people used to the current situation nerdraging.

    TL;DR - Above Quote = You don't have to be *nice*, just don't be an asshole, not that you're not in control of your group in regards to pulling/marking/deciding cc.

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by champ3000 View Post
    People forget that the majority of the player-base aren't hardcore raiders. Like my sister, who farms herbs all day and levels alts. The hardcore raiders may get the gear and the glory, but the casuals, baddies, and questers keep the servers running. You can believe that.
    And they always will, as long as wow is online. They always have, some dont even care about end game just want to quest as a boredom killer. Making the game easier doesnt help blizzard, making the game so it has content for people looking for a challenge and also for people just looking for a light diversion is the hard part. If either side were to quit playing it would cripple wow.

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by glebluk View Post
    7.) You are more than just “big numbers!” Simply because your role or spec is “dps” doesn’t mean you can’t throw out a heal, a dispel, or a cleanse, or even pick up a stray add. Did the healer just die? Does your class have some healing spells? Well, you’d BETTER have those on your bar, because it’s time to show what you’re made of. Pick up the healing and save your group!

    ^ This! It should be a loading screen Tip
    No, that should be the splash-screen. And it should roar. Loudly.

    When I'm dpsing and we wipe, my first thought is usually, "how did that happen?" if I don't know already (usually I do). My second thought is, "why didn't I prevent it?" My third thought is, "I wonder if that loudmouth DPSer who's complaining that it's the tank or healer's fault is wondering the same thing... probably not." Hint: don't like long queue times? Solve problems rather than annoying the tank or healer to the point that they put you on ignore. Every time they do, your queue times go up a little bit.

    But you'll get a lot of arrogance around these topics. You saw it early on in Wrath with lots of people suddenly convinced that raiding was a cake-walk, and completely forgetting that it wasn't. Then they tried to do hard-modes in Ulduar and it got real quiet all of a sudden. Now you look around and they're back. It's just a long-term memory deficiency. They're convinced that a fight is "easy" if they out-gear it rather than recalling that it was actually hard in the appropriate gear. The ones my hat goes off to are the guys that were doing everything they could in ilvl 200 blues. They can speak to what encounters are well-tuned and require hard work vs. those that don't.
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  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by Deepone View Post
    Actually, I find that such players are just confused about what "good" and "bad" are. "Good" players are the ones who know what to expect. They're the ones who can look at a warrior doing low dps and say, "I need you to to get off the keyboard and start using your mouse and strafing keys for movement because you're OOR for 43% of your white damage swings. If you don't have that all set up, do it now and we'll go duel outside so you can test it out, because these other 23 people would rather wait 10 minutes than wipe again." The "bad" players are the ones who say, "WTF low dps fail!

    That may be the most retarded thing i have ever read.... i dont know ANYONE who wants to put off raiding to wait for some baddie to learn his class. They should already know their class before stepping into a raid. It is what test dummies are for...isnt it? Why the hell should I waste the time of 24 other people because he cant figure out his class? Cause WoW is so hard right? i have yet to play a class that i couldnt figure out in like 10 min.

    And as for knowing what to expect... did you even read my first post? That is exactly what it referred to. People should know to expect that bads are going to stay bad. I wasn't saying cata was going to fail...i was saying players are going to fail, like they always have. Keyboard turners are gonna keyboard turn, people with shitty video cards are gonna stand in shit (and even people with good ones), etc etc etc...

    :-) why dont you come to BR and spend some time with the guy in question? Hmm? if you're so willing to do it, step up. Don't talk about it, be about it.

    Also...dueling outside a raid instance....TOTALLY a good idea... TOTALLY safe.
    Last edited by Sinnaa; 2010-11-29 at 07:10 PM.

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  9. #729
    The only thing that really matters is if Cata 5-mans remain some sort of challenge for the new or undergeared, as that's really the only purpose should serve. Wrath Heroics were easy for competent players even in T6 gear.

    Cata 5-mans are going to be rendered obsolete with time and gear; 5-mans have always been that way. BC Heroics were a joke with any geared group by the time Sunwell came around. I hope Blizzard repeats the Sunwell strategy and introduces a new 5-man well-tuned for the current gear level with each new major content patch. By T6 only Magister's Terrace offered a challenge, and that got some nerfs quickly if I recall correctly.

    Cataclysm's real strength will be the polish of the Heroic mode feature in raids; people looking for a massive new bump in difficulty in 5-mans are going to be disappointed by reality. They'll challenge you until you're geared (like they're supposed to) and stop challenging you when you outgear them (like they're supposed to).

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by ihateyouall View Post
    Yes, the role of the tank is to traditionally handle pulling, rest breaks, marking, deciding what mobs you want CC'd, etc... That's fine.
    Actually, back in TBC when CC was required, it usually wasn't the tank that was marking. Sometimes it was, but more often than not, it was the CCers who knew what they were supposed to be doing on the 7-pulls in HSlabs or HSP, and would offer to mark appropriately and usually were taken up on it.

    You can perform your role as a tank without acting like a douchebag.
    No, I think being a douchebag is different from being an arrogant tank. Arrogant tanks are the ones who don't think about the risks they're taking and blame someone else when those risks don't pay off. A great example, again from leveling recently, was where a tank cleared only half of the mobs leading up to the last boss and then ran ahead with the healer at half-mana. Sure, that's probably not going to be an issue, but if someone gets too close to that other group, you're going to have a problem. As it was, I was the healer and I died because exactly that happened. We had a dpser who was a guidlie of mine and we were on Mumble. I asked him to pick up heals and he did. The rest of the party lived, but when I pointed out that this was not the best way to do this, the tank started berating the dpser that got too close instead of acknowledging that they'd made a bet that failed to pay off and a good dpser had saved them from a wipe.

    It's not about his being rude, it's about failing to consider the nature of the content and the level of play being exhibited around them. Simply treating everyone as a die-hard veteran and then chewing them out when they're not is inexcusably bad. It's a tank's job not to be that bad and to instead have an understanding of the level of risk they can take at any given time and how it will pay off or not.
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  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Aestu View Post
    No, actually, he's right - and that sort of patience and hands-on instruction was much more common in Vanilla and to a lesser extent in TBC when people didn't just grab replacements from trade or recruit some guy cross-server. Guilds went to war with the armies they had - and worked to improve them the rest of the time.

    Why that ceased to be the case is a complex question I won't attempt to answer here. Blizzard is trying to force that sort of commitment through guild mechanics, and I think it's a bad idea because it doesn't address the root causes of the problem - what changed so that players don't feel compelled to teach each other.

    But Deepone is fundamentally right that sort of observation and insight and ability to judge skill in others is itself a major part of skill.

    I agree and disagree.... yes, people need to be more willing to help each other. However, they don't need to be doing it in a raid. Do it in a town, before raid, etc. Don't waste other peoples time because you cant figure shit out IMO.

    I have helped a lot of people out by working with them, sometimes for hours (this shit isnt that hard that it should take that long), and I am usually willing to do that now... but not in a raid.

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  12. #732
    I don't care how people play alone but when they come into a Group Situation, their performance has a direct impact on the group and all members of the group. Likewise, the attitude of the experienced players matters as well, sometimes much more than one weak player.

    People don't need to be the best player in the world in order to Group, however out of respect and common courtesy for the other people in the group, they should at a minimum, come prepared to learn/improve their skills.

    Obviously, the more experienced people in the group should recipricate and not be assholes and offer that help in as kindly a way as possible.



    I have no issue with somebody learning.
    I have issues with the people who have no idea what they are doing and who instantly dig in and refuse all help and in the process hurt the group.
    I also have issues with joe-superstar that thinks the group should be going Mach10 and acts like a retard in his attempts to "quicken the group".

    For the former, I have no problem going slower and taking double or triple the time to do an instance and wiping a dozen times.
    For the two laters, I just dont have the patients anymore and either leave or kick them.

  13. #733
    Field Marshal cathedra's Avatar
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    We can only hope that Blizz won't cave like they did in BC
    I was absent a lot of WoTLK cause it was just a grind and dps-fest. I was bored with it all - no challenge.
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  14. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    It's a good post, don't get me wrong. It's just labeled wrong. It applies to every expansion Blizz ever released, not just Wrath. And yeah, I didn't kill LK HM pre 15% or 20%. Not many guilds in the world did. I'm still happy with our kill and where it landed. I'm not a wannabe elitist. I am an elitist ;D
    This is awesome lol.....

  15. #735
    Very nice and helpful content here. Thx for the time you invested mate.

  16. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnaa View Post
    That may be the most retarded thing i have ever read....
    Welcome to the Internet, I hope you decide to stay after you discover how high your expectations actually are ;-)

    i dont know ANYONE who wants to put off raiding to wait for some baddie to learn his class.
    That. That, right there is the arrogance and failure to understand tradeoffs that leads to frustration and doom. You can wipe and complain later or you can wait a short time while a problem gets solved. You opt for the former because the latter means waiting NOW and the former can be arm-waved away with misguided expectations. I've seen people go from OORing nearly half of their white damage to being one of the best raiders a guild had. I've seen reasonably competent raiders never improve. I'd rather have the former.

    They should already know their class before stepping into a raid.
    I have never seen this happen. Any new raiding member is either already experienced from raiding elsewhere or doesn't know half of what they think they do, and what they think they know isn't even enough.

    It is what test dummies are for...isnt it?
    And there we have it. You're one of those players that would have to be taken under-wing and taught that training dummies are now mostly useless in an environment where the difference between sub-par and acceptable is entirely based around reactive abilities, many of which trigger on conditions that can't be fulfilled by a training dummy. Certainly for the example I gave, you can't learn on a dummy since they never move.

    Why the hell should I waste the time of 24 other people because he cant figure out his class? Cause WoW is so hard right?
    Hard and complex are different things. I have a minimum of 6 macros (usually many more) per class and spec and a minimum of 10 abilities I need to use consistently with an extra 3-8 situational abilities depending on the class. On top of that, I need to handle movement, situational awareness and build a model for how everyone around me is going to behave and what their capabilities are. I need to worry about latency, gearing, enchanting, gemming, tokens, points, factions, caps and what's on fire under my feet.

    WoW is an order of magnitude more complex than my day job. But hard? No, it's not really very hard most of the time. That doesn't mean that someone who hasn't learned all of the above is "bad."
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  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Tykus View Post
    Very nice and helpful content here. Thx for the time you invested mate.
    same ...hope Cata will be hard with no early nerfs if peps start to QQ for many wiping
    ____________
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  18. #738
    Correct usage would be:

    What's crackin?'
    The apostrophe goes outside the punctuation. SICK.

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Deepone View Post
    Welcome to the Internet, I hope you decide to stay after you discover how high your expectations actually are ;-)



    That. That, right there is the arrogance and failure to understand tradeoffs that leads to frustration and doom. You can wipe and complain later or you can wait a short time while a problem gets solved. You opt for the former because the latter means waiting NOW and the former can be arm-waved away with misguided expectations. I've seen people go from OORing nearly half of their white damage to being one of the best raiders a guild had. I've seen reasonably competent raiders never improve. I'd rather have the former.



    I have never seen this happen. Any new raiding member is either already experienced from raiding elsewhere or doesn't know half of what they think they do, and what they think they know isn't even enough.



    And there we have it. You're one of those players that would have to be taken under-wing and taught that training dummies are now mostly useless in an environment where the difference between sub-par and acceptable is entirely based around reactive abilities, many of which trigger on conditions that can't be fulfilled by a training dummy. Certainly for the example I gave, you can't learn on a dummy since they never move.



    Hard and complex are different things. I have a minimum of 6 macros (usually many more) per class and spec and a minimum of 10 abilities I need to use consistently with an extra 3-8 situational abilities depending on the class. On top of that, I need to handle movement, situational awareness and build a model for how everyone around me is going to behave and what their capabilities are. I need to worry about latency, gearing, enchanting, gemming, tokens, points, factions, caps and what's on fire under my feet.

    WoW is an order of magnitude more complex than my day job. But hard? No, it's not really very hard most of the time. That doesn't mean that someone who hasn't learned all of the above is "bad."
    ROFL at everything you just said...seriously... rofl...
    1.) no shit the internet full of retarded things, just wanted to point out that it was one of them
    2.)its not arrogance at all... people dont want to, its a simple fact. go ask around how many people want to wait for some tard to learn to play while they are trying to raid on a limited time budget.... most will say screw that. Why? because if they couldnt learn it in 80 levels, basic gearing through heroics, etc. then they arent going to learn it in the next 10 min while you go outside and duel...
    3.) you are telling me that you can't learn a class in 80 levels? you cant learn a class in heroics? you cant learn a class by sitting on dummies to build a fundamental rotation??? really? are you that bad? I have 5 80's.... i knew how to play each and every one of them WELL before i stepped into a raid. Maybe youre a baddie who didnt take the time to learn your own class, but most the people worth raiding with probably did. And sure, some people got taught in raids, but they didnt do it with groups going for 6-10 hardmodes and a 12/12 clear i bet.
    4.) seriously with the stupidity again??? test dummies have a lot of value for learning your rotation and fundamentals. No they don't give you a dynamic environmental, but most people who fail dont even know what the hell they should be pushing and when. learn your rotation before you try to perform your rotation while dodging shit. After you learn it on the dummy...USE HEROICS to learn how to use it on the fly... build groups that are all shit geared as well so you actually have a chance to do something..... dont step into ICC with blue gear maybe? maybe go use them in naxx...then uld....then toc... then icc??? People need to know they are bad so that maybe they will step it into gear and figure shit out....which we all know they really wont.
    We were also talking about a shadowmourne user here.... he has OBVIOUSLY spent a lot of time learning the fights and shouldnt really be figuring out the dynamic environment....
    5.) you just made wow sounds a lot harder than it really is.... its really just this for a dps... dodge shit, stand behind boss, spam buttons...thats really all it is. Yes, you need a little more to go from good to great... but most people arent even good that i am referring too.
    and it really does mean that they are bad. it takes 10 min to google a class and find a decent post about them... another 10-20 min to read that post and figure it out. And where the hell do you work that wow is more complex than your job???
    6.) i would MAYBE listen to you if you had a half decent character linked at the bottom of your page, but im pretty sure my worst alt is better than that.

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  20. #740
    After I read about how Cata dungeons will be like TBC with the CCing, I'm happy and sad at the same time. It's nice to be back to using strategy for each mob pulls which means it's hard again. But during all my TBC runs, I was the tank, an uber tank too. As much as I like tanking and using strategy, I'm NOT looking forward to marking the mobs again. It just became a burden for me and too much work after doing it for a long time. Tanked all the way from beginning of TBC to the end of WOTLK. Also, when you groupped back in TBC, the lead role was automatically passed to you so you could mark. Now everyone could mark and hopefully they don't expect me to do it all the time, if so, I'm going dps this time.

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