1. #13561
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanotical View Post
    water produces lower temps because with a larger surface area in a radiator it is more efficient at transferring heat into the air, the result is that watercooling will in fact make your room warmer than an air heatsink because its more efficient at transferring heat to the air, so over time, more heat gets transferred into the air, and your CPU temp drops
    What? no. The temp of your system will rise until it reaches an equilibrium at which point it will always be dissipating the same Watts regardless of what you strap to it. Just because it gets hotter does not mean it is dissipating less heat, it just means it is less effective at doing so. The bigger the temp difference, the quicker the heat transfer, hence you will always reach an equilibrium not heat something up until it catches fire. You correctly stated that then contradicted yourself?

    As to whether it "feels" hotter or colder, probably just comes down to air speed and area of dissipation rather than actual watts being dissipated. My 35w laptop feels like a toaster. Small fan, small exhaust port. All makes sense, Megahalems feels like ambient air no matter the conditions and it is on top of 130w.

  2. #13562
    I am Murloc! Cyanotical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,510
    Quote Originally Posted by Afrospinach View Post
    What? no. The temp of your system will rise until it reaches an equilibrium at which point it will always be dissipating the same Watts regardless of what you strap to it. Just because it gets hotter does not mean it is dissipating less heat, it just means it is less effective at doing so. The bigger the temp difference, the quicker the heat transfer, hence you will always reach an equilibrium not heat something up until it catches fire. You correctly stated that then contradicted yourself?

    As to whether it "feels" hotter or colder, probably just comes down to air speed and area of dissipation rather than actual watts being dissipated. My 35w laptop feels like a toaster. Small fan, small exhaust port. All makes sense, Megahalems feels like ambient air no matter the conditions and it is on top of 130w.
    you can't get cooler than ambient, but the reason water traditionally is better at cooling is because a radiator has more surface area to transfer heat to the air, this means that there is less heat in the system, and more heat in the air, resulting in lower CPU temps and higher ambient temps (in a closed system), keep a window open or something and you'll be fine, this is the same concept btw that makes passive oil cooling crap

    essentially, water puts more heat into the ambient air faster, that energy is now sitting in the air, making your room warmer (and raising the delta)

    i7-4790K | Z97 Class. | 16GB DDR3-2400 | GTX-980 | RAIDR | 512GB Samsung 830 | SuperNOVA 1Kw P2 | RV05
    Dell U3415w | Ducky Shine3 YoS | Zowie ZA11 | Xonar Essence One | Tannoy Reveal 402

  3. #13563
    Epic! Ghâzh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    1,622
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanotical View Post
    you can't get cooler than ambient, but the reason water traditionally is better at cooling is because a radiator has more surface area to transfer heat to the air, this means that there is less heat in the system, and more heat in the air, resulting in lower CPU temps and higher ambient temps (in a closed system), keep a window open or something and you'll be fine, this is the same concept btw that makes passive oil cooling crap

    essentially, water puts more heat into the ambient air faster, that energy is now sitting in the air, making your room warmer (and raising the delta)
    If by closed system you mean the pc case would be sealed so good that zero heath gets out apart from the exhaust. In which case your hypothesis would be correct. That's not true though the heat is getting out one way or another unless we are talking about purely theoretical situations.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    WoW has been a CPU-bound game for much of its lifetime.

  4. #13564
    I am Murloc! Cyanotical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,510
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghâzh View Post
    If by closed system you mean the pc case would be sealed so good that zero heath gets out apart from the exhaust. In which case your hypothesis would be correct. That's not true though the heat is getting out one way or another unless we are talking about purely theoretical situations.
    assuming your computer is in a room with no airflow, watercooling will heat it up faster (first hand experience, not theory), but most people (as in not my brother) just open a window or door, or have AC, or some other means to remove the heat

    i7-4790K | Z97 Class. | 16GB DDR3-2400 | GTX-980 | RAIDR | 512GB Samsung 830 | SuperNOVA 1Kw P2 | RV05
    Dell U3415w | Ducky Shine3 YoS | Zowie ZA11 | Xonar Essence One | Tannoy Reveal 402

  5. #13565
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanotical View Post
    you can't get cooler than ambient, but the reason water traditionally is better at cooling is because a radiator has more surface area to transfer heat to the air, this means that there is less heat in the system, and more heat in the air, resulting in lower CPU temps and higher ambient temps (in a closed system), keep a window open or something and you'll be fine, this is the same concept btw that makes passive oil cooling crap

    essentially, water puts more heat into the ambient air faster, that energy is now sitting in the air, making your room warmer (and raising the delta)
    That right there is a short term thing though. If you were to do an experiment by running WC vs say a stock cooler, and you let them run a particular test of set length they will both produce the same result for ambient air. The stock cooler will just have a lag because it has greater thermal capacitance, it will have to reach a higher temp before it can dissipate the required wattage at which point they will be identical. Once the temp is stable watts in = watts out. Just as the water cooler will never get so hot, the stock cooler will have to cool down after a burn so you are all square in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanotical View Post
    assuming your computer is in a room with no airflow, watercooling will heat it up faster (first hand experience, not theory), but most people (as in not my brother) just open a window or door, or have AC, or some other means to remove the heat
    Are you sure you are not just overclocking the bejeebus out of said system because you have WC?
    Last edited by Afrospinach; 2014-06-10 at 05:49 PM.

  6. #13566
    Epic! Ghâzh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    1,622
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanotical View Post
    assuming your computer is in a room with no airflow, watercooling will heat it up faster (first hand experience, not theory), but most people (as in not my brother) just open a window or door, or have AC, or some other means to remove the heat
    Faster but not warmer which is what you said initially. Given enough time both systems will be equally warm because the heat flow between the two must be constant in order to the energy source not to start warming up infinitely. Although how much faster is another question which I have no idea about but I would imagine it becoming irrelevant pretty fast after you had had the PC on for even slightly longer periods of time.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    WoW has been a CPU-bound game for much of its lifetime.

  7. #13567
    I am Murloc! Cyanotical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,510
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghâzh View Post
    Faster but not warmer which is what you said initially. Given enough time both systems will be equally warm because the heat flow between the two must be constant in order to the energy source not to start warming up infinitely. Although how much faster is another question which I have no idea about but I would imagine it becoming irrelevant pretty fast after you had had the PC on for even slightly longer periods of time.
    im not really looking at heat potential, just the fact that when you use watercooling, the reason your CPU has a lower temp is that more heat is being drawn away, and that has to go into the ambient air, so more energy in the air means warmer ambient air temp overall, we're splitting hairs though, i just wanted to point out that your room can actually get warmer with watercooling

    i7-4790K | Z97 Class. | 16GB DDR3-2400 | GTX-980 | RAIDR | 512GB Samsung 830 | SuperNOVA 1Kw P2 | RV05
    Dell U3415w | Ducky Shine3 YoS | Zowie ZA11 | Xonar Essence One | Tannoy Reveal 402

  8. #13568
    My setup is:
    ASUS P8Z77-V
    i5-3570k
    Noctua NH-D14
    Sapphire Radeon 7970 Dual-X
    Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600MHz 8GB CL8
    Corsair 600T
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD
    Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB
    Corsair HX 750W

    Gonna be changed soon cause of TC: The Division

  9. #13569
    Epic! Ghâzh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    1,622
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanotical View Post
    im not really looking at heat potential, just the fact that when you use watercooling, the reason your CPU has a lower temp is that more heat is being drawn away, and that has to go into the ambient air, so more energy in the air means warmer ambient air temp overall, we're splitting hairs though, i just wanted to point out that your room can actually get warmer with watercooling
    No we aren't really. There's a fundamental flaw in what you're saying. There won't be more energy in the air if the power consumption of both air and water cooled systems are equal. Exactly the same amount of heat has to be exhausted from the system in both examples, resulting in the same room temperatures. Water cooled system will just reach the peak temperature faster.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    WoW has been a CPU-bound game for much of its lifetime.

  10. #13570
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Illinois, USA
    Posts
    16,373
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghâzh View Post
    No we aren't really. There's a fundamental flaw in what you're saying. There won't be more energy in the air if the power consumption of both air and water cooled systems are equal. Exactly the same amount of heat has to be exhausted from the system in both examples, resulting in the same room temperatures. Water cooled system will just reach the peak temperature faster.
    A water cooled system is going to draw more electricity, if perhaps a minute amount, than an air cooled system, to be fair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    Online dating turned into circumcision discussion. Good job MMO-C, it only took 25 pages.
    My Ridiculous Computer Setup

    MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL: Beer, Games, Opinions
    | CPU Overclocking Thread | GPU Overclocking Thread

  11. #13571
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghâzh View Post
    No we aren't really. There's a fundamental flaw in what you're saying. There won't be more energy in the air if the power consumption of both air and water cooled systems are equal. Exactly the same amount of heat has to be exhausted from the system in both examples, resulting in the same room temperatures. Water cooled system will just reach the peak temperature faster.
    It's sort of a queue.

    Minute 1 : 49° (water)
    Minute 1: 45° (air)
    Minute 2: 50° (water)
    Minute 2: 46° (air)

    Etc etc. In the end you shut the system off, whats heat thats left in the heatsinks/chips are going to go out at some point where as with watercooling most of it is already out.
    3930K@NH-U12s | Asus R4E | 16GB (4x4GB 1600MHz) Dominator Platinum | 2x Asus gtx 780 DC2OC SLI | Evga Supernova 1000 P2 | S27A750D

  12. #13572
    I am Murloc! Cyanotical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,510
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghâzh View Post
    No we aren't really. There's a fundamental flaw in what you're saying. There won't be more energy in the air if the power consumption of both air and water cooled systems are equal. Exactly the same amount of heat has to be exhausted from the system in both examples, resulting in the same room temperatures. Water cooled system will just reach the peak temperature faster.
    but that is assuming that both water and air are drawing the same amount of heat from the CPU, they don't always, a large dual tower heatsink can keep up with water, but take a stock cooler, the reason your CPU runs hotter is because the heatsink is not drawing as much heat away from the cpu and transferring it to air (i honestly didn't think i would have to explain this)

    i7-4790K | Z97 Class. | 16GB DDR3-2400 | GTX-980 | RAIDR | 512GB Samsung 830 | SuperNOVA 1Kw P2 | RV05
    Dell U3415w | Ducky Shine3 YoS | Zowie ZA11 | Xonar Essence One | Tannoy Reveal 402

  13. #13573
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanotical View Post
    but that is assuming that both water and air are drawing the same amount of heat from the CPU, they don't always, a large dual tower heatsink can keep up with water, but take a stock cooler, the reason your CPU runs hotter is because the heatsink is not drawing as much heat away from the cpu and transferring it to air (i honestly didn't think i would have to explain this)
    This will be my absolute last post on this I promise as it is OT

    If you boil a cup of water and the let it cool, taking the temp every minute, it will lose more heat in the first min than any other and subsequently less every minute after. This is because the great the temp difference between two materials the greater the energy transfer.

    In this way you can see why your much more effective cooler with a larger surface area that is more effective at dispersing heat will have a lower peak temperature than a stock cooler. It can dissipate more watts at a given temperature. If it cannot radiate enough watts it is heating up hence greater peak temps for stock, but eventually it will be dumping all the heat being put in. The only thing that can affect your wattage is what you are actually doing with your CPU. What you are suggesting is that somehow heat is getting lost and destroyed which is just impossible. The heat must be either radiated into your room or stored in the system, but as long as you are still using your cpu and the temperature is stable it *must* be radiating every watt being produced no matter what cooling solution you are using. It is fundamental conservation of energy.

  14. #13574
    Epic! Ghâzh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    1,622
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanotical View Post
    but that is assuming that both water and air are drawing the same amount of heat from the CPU, they don't always, a large dual tower heatsink can keep up with water, but take a stock cooler, the reason your CPU runs hotter is because the heatsink is not drawing as much heat away from the cpu and transferring it to air (i honestly didn't think i would have to explain this)
    I might be just bad at explaining myself but let me try one more time.

    Take two computers with exactly the same hardware apart from the coolers. Other has random stock cooler with crap fan, let's call this setup A. The other has top of the line water cooler, let's call this B.

    Now if we don't count in the power drawn by the different cooling systems we can agree that both setups with the same hardware consume the same amount of power. If the example A is using 100 watts of energy on it's CPU per second we can also agree that this energy after turned in to heat must be moved away from the CPU area to keep it's temperature stable (this is assuming that the cooler can actually achieve this). Now regardless of the CPU temperature all that 100 watts of energy must be moved away because if let's say only 95 watts was exhausted it would mean that 5 watts of that energy would be stored somewhere inside the CPU every second and the CPU temperature would keep rising linearly higher and higher. Because it's staying stable at the same temperature we must agree that the cooler is actually getting all that 100 watts out.

    Comparing this to the example B we should also be able to work out that because it's CPU temperature is also staying stable (albeit at lower point) we must agree that it's also getting rid off all that 100 watts of energy. Now if your hypothesis of drawing more heat out would be correct it would mean that the cooler must be able to transfer more then 100 watts which is impossible given the stable power consumption of the CPU. If this was happening it would actually mean that the CPU temperature would start falling linearly.

    If we can agree that all this is true it's obvious that the same amount of heat must be transferred in to the room air eventually. Only defining difference is the time it takes for example A to start transferring as much heat to the room as example B. In the example A there's more resistance in the heatsink material so it takes more time to move the energy from the CPU to the air. Now because there's more resistance it means that in the example A the CPU temperature starts rising to a certain point until it stabilizes and stays there. This time "X" it takes to do this is longer then in example B. When this time has passed and both examples have their CPU temperatures stable both systems will be outputting as much heat. Very simply put it's only this "overhead" that is the difference between water and air. It is true that the example A has more energy temporarily stored inside it's system and hence the higher temperature but the amount of heat put out per second is the same in both cases.

    If you want to look at more of the factors included you also need to account in the fact that water coolers are also most of the time exhausting the hot air straight in the room air, whereas something like stock cooler would exhaust inside the case, meaning that this introduces addition overhead when everything else inside your computer has to heat up before the heat can be transferred onward.

    When you start including additional stuff like airflow patterns and fan setups it gets extremely complicated to calculate exactly how must faster the room heats up to it's peak temperature but all things considered that temperature will be exactly the same once certain amount of time has passed.
    Last edited by Ghâzh; 2014-06-12 at 03:32 PM. Reason: Pardon me for off-topic. Did not remember what thread we were on. Please don't smother me while I sleep mods.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    WoW has been a CPU-bound game for much of its lifetime.

  15. #13575
    I am Murloc! Cyanotical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,510
    the problem is that you can't say a CPU is outputting 100watts, it need an output over time, so lets say 100 watts per hour

    lets also say for ease of discussion that at a rate of 100w/h the CPU reaches a temp of 100C, 1w/h per 1c (not accurate)

    now lets put a stock heatsink on and it dropps the temp down to 80C, that means 20w/h is being drawn from the CPU and transferred to the air

    now compare that to water, where the CPU temp drops to 50C, meaning 50w/h is being removed and transfered to the air

    if the CPU only had 100 watts of thermal energy, then the air temp would equalize over time, however, since entropy is cancled out by the fact that the CPU continues to generate 100w/h a waterloop will continuously output 30w/h more into the air than the heatsink will

    this means that if your air is closed off, your room will heat up approximately 30w/h faster with a waterloop than with a heatsink, but your CPU will be cooler, that is until the potential difference between the radiator and the air is eliminated and the rad stops transferring energy (pretty much impossible)

    with an additional 30w/h of thermal energy in your room vs a heatsink, it gets warmer and you get uncomfortable :P

    Ghâzh:
    if the CPU was a closed system and only contained 100 watts of energy total, and did not generate more, then the same amount of energy would be transfered to air and the only difference would be in how fast it is transfered, but a CPU is not a closed system, so the 3rd law of thermodynamics does not apply
    Last edited by Cyanotical; 2014-06-12 at 03:45 PM.

    i7-4790K | Z97 Class. | 16GB DDR3-2400 | GTX-980 | RAIDR | 512GB Samsung 830 | SuperNOVA 1Kw P2 | RV05
    Dell U3415w | Ducky Shine3 YoS | Zowie ZA11 | Xonar Essence One | Tannoy Reveal 402

  16. #13576
    Epic! Ghâzh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    1,622
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanotical View Post
    the problem is that you can't say a CPU is outputting 100watts, it need an output over time, so lets say 100 watts per hour
    This was a mistake on my part. I incorrectly stated that the CPU would consume 100 watts of energy per second, which is obviously not realistic. I should have said 100 watts per hour which is about 0.028 watts / hour. All my really simple calculations still hold true though.

    lets also say for ease of discussion that at a rate of 100w/h the CPU reaches a temp of 100C, 1w/h per 1c (not accurate)

    now lets put a stock heatsink on and it dropps the temp down to 80C, that means 20w/h is being drawn from the CPU and transferred to the air

    now compare that to water, where the CPU temp drops to 50C, meaning 50w/h is being removed and transfered to the air
    This is wrong. CPU consuming 100w/h means that's it's putting out about (slightly less then) 100w/h of heat all the time. All of this heat must be drawn away and transferred to the air, not just 20w/h or 50w/h like in your examples. If the amount of heat moved away was less then what the system was putting out it would over heat infinitely.

    if the CPU only had 100 watts of thermal energy, then the air temp would equalize over time, however, since entropy is cancled out by the fact that the CPU continues to generate 100w/h a waterloop will continuously output 30w/h more into the air than the heatsink will

    this means that if your air is closed off, your room will heat up approximately 30w/h faster with a waterloop than with a heatsink, but your CPU will be cooler, that is until the potential difference between the radiator and the air is eliminated and the rad stops transferring energy (pretty much impossible)

    with an additional 30w/h of thermal energy in your room vs a heatsink, it gets warmer and you get uncomfortable
    This just doesn't make any sense. If the computer was running for 2 hours it would have 160 watts of thermal energy stored inside the system if the air cooler only removed 20w/h. In 3 hours there would be 240 watts left and in 4 hours 320 watts. See where this is going?

    if the CPU was a closed system and only contained 100 watts of energy total, and did not generate more, then the same amount of energy would be transfered to air and the only difference would be in how fast it is transfered, but a CPU is not a closed system, so the 3rd law of thermodynamics does not apply
    Why the hell not? And for that matter, explain to me how third law of thermodynamics would even apply on our layman napkin math conversation of the subject?
    Last edited by Ghâzh; 2014-06-12 at 04:35 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    WoW has been a CPU-bound game for much of its lifetime.

  17. #13577
    Scarab Lord Kostattoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hellas
    Posts
    4,052
    Good thermodynamic rebate but would like to see more pc-build pictures in here pls
    Armory
    FD Mini R2 |Asus Maximus VI Gene | i5 4670k @4.4Ghz | Corsair H100i | Corsair Vengeance Pro 2x4GB 1866 | GA GTX770 4gb| RM650W | Corsair Neutron GTX 240GB | WD Caviar Black 1TB

  18. #13578
    I am Murloc! Cyanotical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,510
    moved to chat thread

    i7-4790K | Z97 Class. | 16GB DDR3-2400 | GTX-980 | RAIDR | 512GB Samsung 830 | SuperNOVA 1Kw P2 | RV05
    Dell U3415w | Ducky Shine3 YoS | Zowie ZA11 | Xonar Essence One | Tannoy Reveal 402

  19. #13579
    Quote Originally Posted by Kostattoo View Post
    but would like to see more pc-build pictures in here pls
    I can do that, but it ain't pretty.
    edit : Old case



    It gets the job done though, finally got a better processor in there(had a 2.7Ghz 235e) and the funny thing is my old processor sells for almost as much as my new one does, so i'll get most of my money back

    ~Specs~
    AMD Athlon X2 280 @ 3.6Ghz
    ECS MCP61PM-GM Rev 2.4
    6GB DDR2 @ 800Mhz
    300GB WD Blue(boot drive) and 700GB Seagate Barracuda
    EVGA Geforce GTX 460 768mb
    Ultra LSP 550W PSU
    Asus Xonar DG 5.1
    Bitfenix Shinobi

    ~Peripherals~

    Inland 2.1 speaker system
    Turtle Beach Ear Force X4s
    Rosewill Jet Gaming Mouse
    Logitech Wave K350 wireless keyboard
    Samsung Syncmaster 2343bwx @ 2048x1152
    Last edited by tielknight; 2014-07-04 at 06:46 AM.
    If you must insist on using a non-sanctioned sitting apparatus, please consider the tensile strength
    of the materials present in the object in question in comparison to your own mass volumetric density.

    In other words, stop breaking shit with your fat ass.

  20. #13580
    Scarab Lord Kostattoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hellas
    Posts
    4,052
    Damn man, you need to upgrade/buy a new build ><
    Unless you dont game all that much.
    Armory
    FD Mini R2 |Asus Maximus VI Gene | i5 4670k @4.4Ghz | Corsair H100i | Corsair Vengeance Pro 2x4GB 1866 | GA GTX770 4gb| RM650W | Corsair Neutron GTX 240GB | WD Caviar Black 1TB

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •