1. #13561
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghâzh View Post
    No we aren't really. There's a fundamental flaw in what you're saying. There won't be more energy in the air if the power consumption of both air and water cooled systems are equal. Exactly the same amount of heat has to be exhausted from the system in both examples, resulting in the same room temperatures. Water cooled system will just reach the peak temperature faster.
    A water cooled system is going to draw more electricity, if perhaps a minute amount, than an air cooled system, to be fair.
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  2. #13562
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghâzh View Post
    No we aren't really. There's a fundamental flaw in what you're saying. There won't be more energy in the air if the power consumption of both air and water cooled systems are equal. Exactly the same amount of heat has to be exhausted from the system in both examples, resulting in the same room temperatures. Water cooled system will just reach the peak temperature faster.
    It's sort of a queue.

    Minute 1 : 49° (water)
    Minute 1: 45° (air)
    Minute 2: 50° (water)
    Minute 2: 46° (air)

    Etc etc. In the end you shut the system off, whats heat thats left in the heatsinks/chips are going to go out at some point where as with watercooling most of it is already out.
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  3. #13563
    I am Murloc! Cyanotical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghâzh View Post
    No we aren't really. There's a fundamental flaw in what you're saying. There won't be more energy in the air if the power consumption of both air and water cooled systems are equal. Exactly the same amount of heat has to be exhausted from the system in both examples, resulting in the same room temperatures. Water cooled system will just reach the peak temperature faster.
    but that is assuming that both water and air are drawing the same amount of heat from the CPU, they don't always, a large dual tower heatsink can keep up with water, but take a stock cooler, the reason your CPU runs hotter is because the heatsink is not drawing as much heat away from the cpu and transferring it to air (i honestly didn't think i would have to explain this)

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  4. #13564
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanotical View Post
    but that is assuming that both water and air are drawing the same amount of heat from the CPU, they don't always, a large dual tower heatsink can keep up with water, but take a stock cooler, the reason your CPU runs hotter is because the heatsink is not drawing as much heat away from the cpu and transferring it to air (i honestly didn't think i would have to explain this)
    This will be my absolute last post on this I promise as it is OT

    If you boil a cup of water and the let it cool, taking the temp every minute, it will lose more heat in the first min than any other and subsequently less every minute after. This is because the great the temp difference between two materials the greater the energy transfer.

    In this way you can see why your much more effective cooler with a larger surface area that is more effective at dispersing heat will have a lower peak temperature than a stock cooler. It can dissipate more watts at a given temperature. If it cannot radiate enough watts it is heating up hence greater peak temps for stock, but eventually it will be dumping all the heat being put in. The only thing that can affect your wattage is what you are actually doing with your CPU. What you are suggesting is that somehow heat is getting lost and destroyed which is just impossible. The heat must be either radiated into your room or stored in the system, but as long as you are still using your cpu and the temperature is stable it *must* be radiating every watt being produced no matter what cooling solution you are using. It is fundamental conservation of energy.

  5. #13565
    Warchief Ghâzh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanotical View Post
    but that is assuming that both water and air are drawing the same amount of heat from the CPU, they don't always, a large dual tower heatsink can keep up with water, but take a stock cooler, the reason your CPU runs hotter is because the heatsink is not drawing as much heat away from the cpu and transferring it to air (i honestly didn't think i would have to explain this)
    I might be just bad at explaining myself but let me try one more time.

    Take two computers with exactly the same hardware apart from the coolers. Other has random stock cooler with crap fan, let's call this setup A. The other has top of the line water cooler, let's call this B.

    Now if we don't count in the power drawn by the different cooling systems we can agree that both setups with the same hardware consume the same amount of power. If the example A is using 100 watts of energy on it's CPU per second we can also agree that this energy after turned in to heat must be moved away from the CPU area to keep it's temperature stable (this is assuming that the cooler can actually achieve this). Now regardless of the CPU temperature all that 100 watts of energy must be moved away because if let's say only 95 watts was exhausted it would mean that 5 watts of that energy would be stored somewhere inside the CPU every second and the CPU temperature would keep rising linearly higher and higher. Because it's staying stable at the same temperature we must agree that the cooler is actually getting all that 100 watts out.

    Comparing this to the example B we should also be able to work out that because it's CPU temperature is also staying stable (albeit at lower point) we must agree that it's also getting rid off all that 100 watts of energy. Now if your hypothesis of drawing more heat out would be correct it would mean that the cooler must be able to transfer more then 100 watts which is impossible given the stable power consumption of the CPU. If this was happening it would actually mean that the CPU temperature would start falling linearly.

    If we can agree that all this is true it's obvious that the same amount of heat must be transferred in to the room air eventually. Only defining difference is the time it takes for example A to start transferring as much heat to the room as example B. In the example A there's more resistance in the heatsink material so it takes more time to move the energy from the CPU to the air. Now because there's more resistance it means that in the example A the CPU temperature starts rising to a certain point until it stabilizes and stays there. This time "X" it takes to do this is longer then in example B. When this time has passed and both examples have their CPU temperatures stable both systems will be outputting as much heat. Very simply put it's only this "overhead" that is the difference between water and air. It is true that the example A has more energy temporarily stored inside it's system and hence the higher temperature but the amount of heat put out per second is the same in both cases.

    If you want to look at more of the factors included you also need to account in the fact that water coolers are also most of the time exhausting the hot air straight in the room air, whereas something like stock cooler would exhaust inside the case, meaning that this introduces addition overhead when everything else inside your computer has to heat up before the heat can be transferred onward.

    When you start including additional stuff like airflow patterns and fan setups it gets extremely complicated to calculate exactly how must faster the room heats up to it's peak temperature but all things considered that temperature will be exactly the same once certain amount of time has passed.
    Last edited by Ghâzh; 2014-06-12 at 03:32 PM. Reason: Pardon me for off-topic. Did not remember what thread we were on. Please don't smother me while I sleep mods.

  6. #13566
    I am Murloc! Cyanotical's Avatar
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    the problem is that you can't say a CPU is outputting 100watts, it need an output over time, so lets say 100 watts per hour

    lets also say for ease of discussion that at a rate of 100w/h the CPU reaches a temp of 100C, 1w/h per 1c (not accurate)

    now lets put a stock heatsink on and it dropps the temp down to 80C, that means 20w/h is being drawn from the CPU and transferred to the air

    now compare that to water, where the CPU temp drops to 50C, meaning 50w/h is being removed and transfered to the air

    if the CPU only had 100 watts of thermal energy, then the air temp would equalize over time, however, since entropy is cancled out by the fact that the CPU continues to generate 100w/h a waterloop will continuously output 30w/h more into the air than the heatsink will

    this means that if your air is closed off, your room will heat up approximately 30w/h faster with a waterloop than with a heatsink, but your CPU will be cooler, that is until the potential difference between the radiator and the air is eliminated and the rad stops transferring energy (pretty much impossible)

    with an additional 30w/h of thermal energy in your room vs a heatsink, it gets warmer and you get uncomfortable :P

    Ghâzh:
    if the CPU was a closed system and only contained 100 watts of energy total, and did not generate more, then the same amount of energy would be transfered to air and the only difference would be in how fast it is transfered, but a CPU is not a closed system, so the 3rd law of thermodynamics does not apply
    Last edited by Cyanotical; 2014-06-12 at 03:45 PM.

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  7. #13567
    Warchief Ghâzh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanotical View Post
    the problem is that you can't say a CPU is outputting 100watts, it need an output over time, so lets say 100 watts per hour
    This was a mistake on my part. I incorrectly stated that the CPU would consume 100 watts of energy per second, which is obviously not realistic. I should have said 100 watts per hour which is about 0.028 watts / hour. All my really simple calculations still hold true though.

    lets also say for ease of discussion that at a rate of 100w/h the CPU reaches a temp of 100C, 1w/h per 1c (not accurate)

    now lets put a stock heatsink on and it dropps the temp down to 80C, that means 20w/h is being drawn from the CPU and transferred to the air

    now compare that to water, where the CPU temp drops to 50C, meaning 50w/h is being removed and transfered to the air
    This is wrong. CPU consuming 100w/h means that's it's putting out about (slightly less then) 100w/h of heat all the time. All of this heat must be drawn away and transferred to the air, not just 20w/h or 50w/h like in your examples. If the amount of heat moved away was less then what the system was putting out it would over heat infinitely.

    if the CPU only had 100 watts of thermal energy, then the air temp would equalize over time, however, since entropy is cancled out by the fact that the CPU continues to generate 100w/h a waterloop will continuously output 30w/h more into the air than the heatsink will

    this means that if your air is closed off, your room will heat up approximately 30w/h faster with a waterloop than with a heatsink, but your CPU will be cooler, that is until the potential difference between the radiator and the air is eliminated and the rad stops transferring energy (pretty much impossible)

    with an additional 30w/h of thermal energy in your room vs a heatsink, it gets warmer and you get uncomfortable
    This just doesn't make any sense. If the computer was running for 2 hours it would have 160 watts of thermal energy stored inside the system if the air cooler only removed 20w/h. In 3 hours there would be 240 watts left and in 4 hours 320 watts. See where this is going?

    if the CPU was a closed system and only contained 100 watts of energy total, and did not generate more, then the same amount of energy would be transfered to air and the only difference would be in how fast it is transfered, but a CPU is not a closed system, so the 3rd law of thermodynamics does not apply
    Why the hell not? And for that matter, explain to me how third law of thermodynamics would even apply on our layman napkin math conversation of the subject?
    Last edited by Ghâzh; 2014-06-12 at 04:35 PM.

  8. #13568
    Scarab Lord Kostattoo's Avatar
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    Good thermodynamic rebate but would like to see more pc-build pictures in here pls
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  9. #13569
    I am Murloc! Cyanotical's Avatar
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    moved to chat thread

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  10. #13570
    Quote Originally Posted by Kostattoo View Post
    but would like to see more pc-build pictures in here pls
    I can do that, but it ain't pretty.
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    Last edited by tielknight; 2014-07-04 at 06:46 AM.
    If you must insist on using a non-sanctioned sitting apparatus, please consider the tensile strength
    of the materials present in the object in question in comparison to your own mass volumetric density.

    In other words, stop breaking shit with your fat ass.

  11. #13571
    Scarab Lord Kostattoo's Avatar
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    Damn man, you need to upgrade/buy a new build ><
    Unless you dont game all that much.
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  12. #13572
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  13. #13573
    Quote Originally Posted by Kostattoo View Post
    Damn man, you need to upgrade/buy a new build ><
    Unless you dont game all that much.
    Upgrading costs money, I don't have much so I get to get a part here and a part there when I can. And I do game alot, i'm just broke 99% of the time


    Quote Originally Posted by Notarget View Post
    Beast system Tiel
    Indeed! It managed to get ~25fps in Watch Dogs at 1600x900!
    If you must insist on using a non-sanctioned sitting apparatus, please consider the tensile strength
    of the materials present in the object in question in comparison to your own mass volumetric density.

    In other words, stop breaking shit with your fat ass.

  14. #13574
    Scarab Lord Kostattoo's Avatar
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    That headset seems good, alright
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  15. #13575
    The Lightbringer CheezusCrust's Avatar
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    Picked up a Playseat w/ a G25

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    inb4 "Dat cable management!"

    Last edited by CheezusCrust; 2014-06-15 at 12:49 AM.
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  16. #13576
    Quote Originally Posted by Kostattoo View Post
    That headset seems good, alright
    Indeed! Got it from a friend that broke the connector that goes from the headset to the xbox controller, so i just got a soundcard and a cable and voila, awesome gaming headset.

    Quote Originally Posted by CheezusCrust View Post
    Picked up a Playseat w/ a G25

    Eurotruck Simulator Mustard Race.

    inb4 "Dat cable management!"
    I love Eurotruck, even if it's just with M&KB. Something to sit back and relax with and eventually nick the corner of a building and go into a incoherent rage because your run was going perfect before that point
    If you must insist on using a non-sanctioned sitting apparatus, please consider the tensile strength
    of the materials present in the object in question in comparison to your own mass volumetric density.

    In other words, stop breaking shit with your fat ass.

  17. #13577
    The Lightbringer CheezusCrust's Avatar
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    Seems like this thread is getting buried, we're 4 pages in the computer forum as of now.



    Also, switched to the Moto G from the G2

    Last edited by CheezusCrust; 2014-06-21 at 04:42 PM.
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  18. #13578
    damn that must've set you back a few hundreds all those noctua's
    love em tho, best fans ever

  19. #13579
    Scarab Lord Kostattoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheezusCrust View Post
    Seems like this thread is getting buried, we're 4 pages in the computer forum as of now.
    Is that for your room during summer ?
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  20. #13580
    The Lightbringer CheezusCrust's Avatar
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    My room is still a little chilly during summer, so no :P

    I plan to use the poop brown fans for my upcoming server, and the PPC (Black) for my NCASE M1 rig
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