Alliance Leaders receiving little developement.

[Kellorkleft]

faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnn booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooyy

I was wondering when the trolls would arrive. Good to know they're not even attempting to show a strand of intelligence.

[Wildberry]

I always get confused.. Even those connect the dots with numbers and colored dots are just.. so hard.

I find it remarkable how you don't see what a tool he is, but then, I guess your the reason blizz find it so easy to stear the plot the way it is now.

Pre-BC:

Alright, so first we will look at Garrosh before we ever encounter him, right after the second war when the Alliance Expedition is trying to stop Ner'Zhul From entering other worlds. Garrosh Hellscream was a mere child here, not in charge of anything yet, and suffering from the Red Pox. Kargath Bladefist Enters Garadar and Demands reinforcements to fight off the Alliance Expedition, Greatmother Geyah, the Orc Matron in charge of Garadar, told him no, utterly disgusted at what the Horde had done. It is then that Garrosh asks Kargath about his dad, Grom, and also asks to fight alongside him, at first Kargath ignores him, and then Kargath proceeds to call the Mag'har Weaklings, and not Orcs anymore. This places the idea in Garrosh's Head that he and the rest of the Mag'har are somehow less than other orcs, keep this in mind because we'll adress it later. Later on, Garrosh asks Geyah about Grom and she tells him that Grom was a monster, and that he Damned the Orcish Race.

The Burning Crusade:

Now when we see Garrosh in game for the first time, his depression has gotten worse, and he's now one of the important chiefs among the Mag'har, and we also see that the Mag'har are under attack by the ogres, and also, that Greatmother Geyah has fallen extremely ill. Now we see Garrosh doing nothing about this, and this isn't because he doesn't know what to do, but rather, he's afraid to do it. I say this, because the Garrosh we see in Nagrand is the SAME Garrosh we see in Warsong Hold. Only while in Nagrand, Garrosh isn't doing anything, and although he wants to go send in the mag'har to crush the ogres, he doesn't because he knows it's something Grom would've done, and therefore makes it the wrong thing to do. This is why he hasn't done anything, because he always notices the similarities between his actions and Grom's actions, and that makes it wrong, atleast in his eyes. On top of all of that His depression has gotten worse because he knows Greatmother Geyah is close to death and he realizes that once she's gone he will have to lead his people, and he feels unfit for the job because he's terrified of messing up and hurting his people, like his father did. Fortunately, when to Garrosh, all seems lost, Thrall arrives and after his conversation with Greatmother Geyah, he speaks to Garrosh and tells him that his father was a hero and saved the orcish race. Unfortunately he makes one mistake there, he completely glossed over all of Grom's faults and didn't tell Garrosh things like, how Grom Battled the blood curse, and how Grom didn't give in to his bloodlust but rather, controlled it and honed it into a weapon. so we now see Garrosh Embrace being a Hellscream and also embrace the Bloodlust he feels.

Wrath Of The Lich King:

Fast forward to Warsong Hold, All of Garrosh's actions right now, have shown him to be impulsive, hotheaded, and reckless, and right now this is true, for two reason. The first is that he is letting his bloodlust and rage control him, instead of Controlling it, like Grom did, and also because he's trying to live up to the expectations of the Horde, to be a true orc (Remember what Kargath said about the Mag'har) because so far he's heard tales of war and glory about the horde, so he's just trying to follow what he believes the Horde to be. Unfortunately, Thrall made another mistake, he made him commander of the Warsong expedition, when so far, Garrosh doesn't have any experience at leading ANYTHING. So we see Garrosh put in this position, and he pretty much has to learn on the job. Now the reason we don't see him learning faster than he does, is because his brutal tactics have either worked or Saurfang cleaned up the mess, fortunately Garrosh does learn how to lead armies at the end of the campaign against the Lich King. Now let's go to his Dialogue with Saurfang, Basically you have Saurfang, who knows the, what he feels to be atrocities, that the Old Horde Commited, and Garrosh who has heard about the Horde being this bloodthirsty, vicious, yet honorable War Machine. So we see these two conflicting ideas, the one held by Thrall and some of the older veterans, and the one held by Garrosh and some of the Younger orcs of the Horde. This dialogue leads players to view Garrosh as a Bloodthirsty, Child Murdering, Lunatic, And while nothing comes out of the dialogue at the beginning, most likely because Garrosh sees Saurfang as an old fool, he ponders his conversation with the venerable orc, throughout Northrend, and it is at the Very end, that we see these wise words sink in. So in Icecrown Citadel, once Garrosh recognizes the wisdom Saurfang has to offer, takes these words to heart: "Honor, no matter how dire the battle, NEVER forsake it."

Cataclysm:

This is where we see Garrosh when he has not only matured, but actually learned about the horde while in Northrend, instead of assuming that it was some vicious war machine. And although Garrosh is still unwilling to think about peace with the alliance (Who since the return of Wrynn, interestingly enough the ONLY alliance Garrosh has ever seen, have proven to be nothing but a threat to the Horde) yet honorable and competant enough, for Thrall to choose him to be Warchief. Thrall does this because he has seen that Garrosh has Grown alot since they first met, and that he is the Orc his people want, yet honorable enough to lead with wisdom.

[Miles Tails Prower]

I was being sarcastic, but your post was very enlightening. I personally have no qualms with Garrosh. He even petted me once and said he likes foxes. Anyone who says that are A-O-K in my book!

[drulz]

Oh yeah you Alliance guys are really missing out! I mean there is nothing more awesome than Horde leaders being all like "HAY GAIZ DERS ALLIENSE WE HAS TO FITE WIT DEM LOLROFL!11!!"

Also, with the exception of Magni, who is no longer around, the Alliance racial leaders are a bunch of nerds and tools. Actually all of the racial leaders are nerds and tools. Except for Magni.

[Wildberry]

I was being sarcastic, but your post was very enlightening. I personally have no qualms with Garrosh. He even petted me once and said he likes foxes. Anyone who says that are A-O-K in my book!

Fair enough, Sorry I don't do well with sarcasm in text >.>

[Miles Tails Prower]

Fair enough, Sorry I don't do well with sarcasm in text >.>

Me neither. That's why Sonic says I should stick to building planes..

[Deleted]

I'd like to see Anduin on the business end of a sharp, pointy object.

The Shattering just showed how different he and his father really are. Varian is the type of leader the Horde would follow. A strong warrior who stands up to them, which is why they hate him. Anduin is the type of leader the Horde wants the Alliance to have. Someone who will bend over and bow down to them, give them whatever they want and make excuses for whatever action they do.

Anduin is also the type of leader that knows what Alliance means. Varian is breaking apart that very meaning by basically turning his faction into some sort of second war Horde. The keywords being 'second war', as in still mostly a bunch of dishonorable bastards with a single leader.

But then, maybe the Alliance is just happy they got a Warchief now. *Shrug*

[Ahova]

Nice, informative wall of text.

You say that Garrosh doesn't control his Bloodlust like his father did, but, forgive me if I am mistaken but aren't the Mag'har untouched by the blood curse?

[Kellorkleft]

Anduin is also the type of leader that knows what Alliance means. Varian is breaking apart that very meaning by basically turning his faction into some sort of second war Horde.

But then, maybe the Alliance is just happy they got a Warchief now. *Shrug*

I hope I speak for most when I say, "I like Varian as a person, but he's being a pretty lame leader right now."

[Deleted]

You say that Garrosh doesn't control his Bloodlust like his father did, but, forgive me if I am mistaken but aren't the Mag'har untouched by the blood curse?

Grom was pretty savage before the blood curse though. Actually, pretty much all the Warsong were.

---------- Post added 2010-11-30 at 06:18 AM ----------

I hope I speak for most when I say, "I like Varian as a person, but he's being a pretty lame leader right now."

Dunno, he's a massive hypocrite... meh, that's an issue for another time.

Anyhow, what he's doing is grinding the very essence of being Alliance into the dirt. When Garrosh does it, he's a monster. When Varian does it, he's praised as a hero. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

[Rainbow Thunder]

that's called Garrosh Reaching Maturity, I really don't see how you can't connect the dots.

fun fact orcs finish puberty at the age of 40

[Deleted]

fun fact orcs finish puberty at the age of 40

Orcs are of age to fight at 12, so I doubt they'd take that long... besides, that would mean Thrall's still well into puberty.

[Negrido]

Anduin is also the type of leader that knows what Alliance means. Varian is breaking apart that very meaning by basically turning his faction into some sort of second war Horde. The keywords being 'second war', as in still mostly a bunch of dishonorable bastards with a single leader.

But then, maybe the Alliance is just happy they got a Warchief now. *Shrug*

To be fair, Varian did fix the Moira thing. Without even having to kill her!

[Kellorkleft]

Grom was pretty savage before the blood curse though. Actually, pretty much all the Warsong were.

---------- Post added 2010-11-30 at 06:18 AM ----------



Dunno, he's a massive hypocrite... meh, that's an issue for another time.

Anyhow, what he's doing is grinding the very essence of being Alliance into the dirt. When Garrosh does it, he's a monster. When Varian does it, he's praised as a hero. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

Mostly due to the mentality of Alliance being on the defensive end of the war, against the tyranny of De Fuhrer Hellscream. Always being the victim, always seeking justice and the good traits of a sophisticated society of which we can relate to. I wouldn't mind Varian's pigheaded behavior if there was a bit more depth to it, which is my complaint. I've yet to see a major lore piece to define the other "half" of Varian.

[Wildberry]

You say that Garrosh doesn't control his Bloodlust like his father did, but, forgive me if I am mistaken but aren't the Mag'har untouched by the blood curse?

They're untouched by the Bloodcurse but that doesn't mean they can't succumb to Bloodlust every now and then.

[Kellorkleft]

To be fair, Varian did fix the Moira thing. Without even having to kill her!

With Anduin's guidance. Without it, he would have, and would have started a civil war between the dwarves.

[Deleted]

To be fair, Varian did fix the Moira thing. Without even having to kill her!

Thus forcing some 'puppet leaders' into a position of power within Ironforge, and sneaking in to assassinate her.

Let's see, autonomy compromised? Check. Honor thrown aside? Check.

Mostly due to the mentality of Alliance being on the defensive end of the war, against the tyranny of De Fuhrer Hellscream. Always being the victim, always seeking justice and the good traits of a sophisticated society of which we can relate to. I wouldn't mind Varian's pigheaded behavior if there was a bit more depth to it, which is my complaint. I've yet to see a major lore piece to define the other "half" of Varian.

In the end you have to ask yourself, is turning into your enemy really worth it?

Maybe I just read too much Pratchett... that's one of the major points of pretty much every book starring Watch Commander Vimes.

[Kellorkleft]

They're untouched by the Bloodcurse but that doesn't mean they can't succumb to Bloodlust every now and then.

This. A race doesn't evolve into a brutish physique like that without senselessly bashing some heads in.

EDIT: I need to stop thinknig I can reply quick enough to add to my own post before someone else posts.

[Phenomina]

Anduin is also the type of leader that knows what Alliance means. Varian is breaking apart that very meaning by basically turning his faction into some sort of second war Horde. The keywords being 'second war', as in still mostly a bunch of dishonorable bastards with a single leader.

But then, maybe the Alliance is just happy they got a Warchief now. *Shrug*

Anduin is optimistic because he is young and naieve and doesn't know any better. Even if somehow he was put into power it would only make the Alliance seem more weak and feeble as the Horde warmachine continues to roll through our land with a 13 year boy who couldn't fight back if he wanted too.

Anduin: Hey Garrosh I'm in power now, so let's talk pro peace! "
Garrosh: Lok'tar Ogar pothetic Human, peace is for cowards
* Garrosh beheads Anduin *
Random Human: Well.. that worked well for us... =\

Also no matter what action's Varian takes ( and I think your greatly over-hyping them eg. second war Horde ) they will always be less brutal and ruthless then the Horde and that still holds true in Cataclysm.

[Deleted]

Also no matter what action's Varian takes ( and I think your greatly over-hyping them eg. second war Horde ) they will always be less brutal and ruthless then the Horde and that still holds true in Cataclysm.

Southern Barrens.