Feral vs. Rogue in PVP - a 20 points side by side comparison

[Deleted]

Well, if it's not the same, then it's a bug and will be fixed. Blizzard have clearly stated that they want rogues and ferals with the improved stealth and resto, balance with the weak stealth.
I'll check the numbers though, looks interesting.

It's not a bug. Those values are simply the ones used when you first learn the spell and rogues get stealth five levels before druids get prowl. The value for both are the same for a given level.

[Deleted]

1) Pounce - 4sec stun
2) Maim(5cp) - 5sec stun
3) Cyclone x2 - 6 and 4sec not sure about the second cyclone if it is 4 or 3sec.
4) Bash(bear) - 5sec stun

Furthermore, Pounce and Maim don't share diminishing returns as Cheap shot and Kidney Shot do. The myth feral druids can't lock healers dates from the time when ferals didn't have a spell interrupt.

From my experience since 4.0.3 ferals are the most effective melee class against holy paladins and disc priests. Resto druid is a different story though - the hots neutralize the bleeds most of the time.

One addition: Pounce+Maim+Cyclone(x2) is an amazing lockout combo - maybe the longest in game, but to be sure it will work (the two cyclones will not be resisted) the druid must gem at least some basic spell penetration, which is a little counterintuitive for feral. Personally I find gemming 2 spell penetration blues acceptable. The new chaotic skyflare diamond socket bonus requires more blue than red anyway.

[Rudy]

Pretty much good posts, you aren t saying omg go rogue omg go feral, don t listen to all that are saying spple vs orange. You listed a lot of facts comparing 2 similar classes. Helping decide what character use for pvp or for an arena comp to those that are undecided

[Deleted]

good subject but i think feral are the most UP pvpers

[Deleted]

Pretty much good posts, you aren t saying omg go rogue omg go feral, don t listen to all that are saying spple vs orange. You listed a lot of facts comparing 2 similar classes. Helping decide what character use for pvp or for an arena comp to those that are undecided

Thank you
I also consider rogues and feral druids to be similar enough (stealth+combo points+energy), but different enough too, so in my opinion it's not "apples vs oranges". The reason behind this post was that I had seen many starting players ask questions like "Feral can do all rogue can do but also heal, why play rogue" or "Feral is a bad version of a rogue, why play feral". Now I think both classes are finally equally useful and interesting to play, which is very good, because for the most part of wow feral was too constrained and got a bad reputation.

[arcon]

Didn't see it mentioned but ferals also have a talent within the feral tree increasing stealth further http://www.wowhead.com/spell=16949.

[Shifthappens]

Now all ferals goto do is stack bleeds and interupt/stun a healer, u can put massive pressure on a healer while they just bleed to death, yes we can lockdown a healer just as good as a rog now. seen it, done it myself.

I think that feral dmg is better then rogues now in PVP, especially out of stealth, be it a light target or plate, once again just stack bleeds, generate CPs for stuns and interupt when needed.

if nobody mentioned this yet: At the moment its enough for my 2 dots to kill someone twice over, they will not survive unless they r healing class or a tank that can shieldwall.
this is how powerfull bleeds are atm and without mastery gems, but our direct dmg really sucks. it makes up for it


ALSO: i had no idea they removed all rogues talents that increased stealth

[Deleted]

Didn't see it mentioned but ferals also have a talent within the feral tree increasing stealth further.

This is the one that ferals get for free for speccing feral. This talent makes their stealth equal to rogues' stealth.

[Deleted]

One addition: Pounce+Maim+Cyclone(x2) is an amazing lockout combo - maybe the longest in game, but to be sure it will work (the two cyclones will not be resisted) the druid must gem at least some basic spell penetration, which is a little counterintuitive for feral. Personally I find gemming 2 spell penetration blues acceptable.

With three blue gems you can get 75 spell penetration, which cancel out the nature resistance of most people, which is 65 and comes from motw or BoK. Night elves have an additional racial resistance to nature, with motw I'm at 80 resistance. So you still have a small chance they will resist cyclone.

The new chaotic skyflare diamond socket bonus requires more blue than red anyway.

It will be changed back in the next patch, a blue confirmed it.

[arcon]

This is the one that ferals get for free for speccing feral. This talent makes their stealth equal to rogues' stealth.

Prowl http://www.wowhead.com/spell=5215
Apply Aura: Stealth
Value: 50

Feral Instinct
Apply Aura: Mod Stealth Effectiveness
Value: 15

vs

Stealth http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1784
Apply Aura: Stealth
Value: 40

Seemed like baseline is already superior and FI is the icing on the cake. Guess they haven't updated the data on wowhead yet.

[Deleted]

Seemed like baseline is already superior

It increases with level and wowhead only shows the value at the lowest level you can get prowl and stealth. And rogues get stealth 5 levels before druids get prowl, which explain the difference. They should have the same value at the levels where they are both available.

and FI is the icing on the cake. Guess they haven't updated the data on wowhead yet.

From what I've read somewhere, supposedly rogues now have the same stealth bonus as feral instinct (the old master of deception talent) as a passive bonus for all specs. I guess it doesn't show in wowhead, though.

[candyass]

it should be noted you are comparing an entire class to a spec of another class.

not exactly apples and oranges.

[Williee]

ya well currently as of 4.0.3a
feral and their bleeds just trump most classes atm
but with the lv 85 and gear changes upcoming, things will definitely change

[Woogs]

2. Healing debuff - 50/50
The "mortal strike" debuff is now only 10%. Rogue provides it by reducing healing by 10%, feral provides it by increasing mana cost of spells by 10% (which will matter soon). The interesting thing here is that the feral ability stacks with other mortal strike effects - meaning you can have healing reduced by 10% and mana cost increased by 10% at the same time, giving an overall 20% healing effectiveness reduction over a long period of time.

I would say Rogues have the advantage on this one. A Feral's 'healing debuff' costs resources to apply, can't be applied to more than one target at a time, must always be applied to the healer, and only has an equal effect as the Rogue's healing debuff if the healer's entire mana pool is used.

[Sylar Hao]

18. Slowing the enemy - rogue
Rogues have the advantage with Crippling poison (70%) against Infected wounds (50%), the second however is physical to make up to an extent. Both are reapplied by the normal attack cycle and don't require wasting energy to do so.

Infected Wounds is not a a physical effect but a Disease. So both slow effects are dispellable. But Rogues have talents to apply the slow effect much much better than ferals:
- Deadly Brew: While still is a poison it's almost impossible to no apply it on autoattack. So dispelling it to a target being attacked by an Assassination Rogue is just a waste of GCD and mana.
- Blade Twisting: Not sure how well this effect is as I haven't played this spec, but it's a physical effect, so I guess only trinket, Hand of Freedom and Hand of Protection protects against it.
- Waylay: This is probably the best of all three talents as it's physical, lasts longer and is accesible for all three specs. It's, of course, better for Subtlety.

In addition, the 3 talents lets the rogue not depend at all on Crippling Poison, so they can choose their favourite poison combo.

Feral on the other side applies it just by generating combo points or by tanking when needed with their more used attacks.

[Leinie]

It's 100% verified and certain that bleeds don't benefit from mastery if you're not in cat form. This includes bear form, caster form or dead. Just notice how once you die your bleeds start ticking for less on the enemy. And after all, if you could switch to bear and benefit from both your cat mastery and bear mastery would be overpowered.

Rejoice! This was fixed in a hotfix yesterday. Blue tracker link.

Rake is now dealing the same damage outside of Cat Form when the druid has the Razor Claws mastery. Rake damage also stays consistent when modified by Mangle as a druid shifts out of Cat Form.

It only specifically mentions Rake, however. I have yet to test it in game.

[Deleted]

Rejoice! This was fixed in a hotfix yesterday. [/URL].




It only specifically mentions Rake, however. I have yet to test it in game.

It seems that EU servers have not been updated yet. I just tried it ingame (11:30 Paris-Berlin-Rome time), and Rake loses mastery bonus outside of cat form. I'll check later this evening again.

[Leinie]

It seems that EU servers have not been updated yet. I just tried it ingame (11:30 Paris-Berlin-Rome time), and Rake loses mastery bonus outside of cat form. I'll check later this evening again.

I just tested it (my realm has been restarted), and yes, both Rip and Rake tick for the same in and out of cat.

[Kokomala]

8. Silences - rogue
Rogues have garrote and improved kick, ferals don't have any silences.

Ferals have Skull Bash

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=80965

You charge and skull bash the target, interrupting spellcasting and preventing any spell in that school from being cast for 5 sec.

[DaTank25]

Skull bash interrupts a spell and prevents any spells from that SCHOOL to be cast. So it only works if a spell is cast.

Garrote and Imp kick silence ALL spells whether or not they were casting anything.

FYI