Vengeance

[konaman]

link to blue post http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...th-a-vengeance

I know this is old news to all of us tanks but I was tanking ICC 10 on my paladin yesterday with a druid and I was having a few threat problems. So first off because vengeance is related to your total health that means that bear tanks are getting a bit more ap then an equally geared tank of another class doesn't it? Secondly I was having problems on fights where we needed to taunt off each other for example during saurfang. Since the druid went first he had built up most of his vengeance already and once it was my turn to taunt I was having a lot of trouble holding top threat which is something I do not have a problem doing with other tank classes. Some of this has to do with the fact that he was in full 264-277 gear where as I'm in a mix of 251-264 but even still I found the amount of threat is was pulling was insane compared to mine. So I wanted to suggest another mechanic to vengeance and wanted to see what you guy/girls think about it. How about some sort of shared vengeance mechanic similar to the blood link mechanic for blood queen where if two tanks were on a boss they would each generate the same percentage of vengeance even if only one of them was taking damage.

[Elunetrain]

Bears have 10% more HP I believe. Savage Defense was nerfed because veng was too op.

Threat is stupid now. In toc25H/icc I have to wait 30 seconds in before I can start dpsing because my threat and damage are absurd compared to tanks threat. Bear mangle coupled with the glyph of berserk and berserking does a ridiculous amount of damage to grab threat. my 2c

[marrakoosh]

Bears have 10% more HP I believe. Savage Defense was nerfed because veng was too op.

Threat is stupid now. In toc25H/icc I have to wait 30 seconds in before I can start dpsing because my threat and damage are absurd compared to tanks threat. Bear mangle coupled with the glyph of berserk and berserking does a ridiculous amount of damage to grab threat. my 2c

Something you should get used to for Cata.

[Asur]

So you actually have to watch your aggro? oh noes!

[Deleted]

So you actually have to watch your aggro? oh noes!

Yeah, it sure is hard doing nothing for the first 20 seconds and than don't care about threat for the rest of the whole fight...

[Tradu]

Bears have 10% more HP I believe. Savage Defense was nerfed because veng was too op.

Threat is stupid now. In toc25H/icc I have to wait 30 seconds in before I can start dpsing because my threat and damage are absurd compared to tanks threat. Bear mangle coupled with the glyph of berserk and berserking does a ridiculous amount of damage to grab threat. my 2c

Druids have more HP than other tanks? That got changed, druids have no advantages anymore.

And every single tank I've had the pleasure to raid with lately has had extremely low TPS, as a cat druid, I used Cower on cooldown, and was still way too close to pulling for my taste.
My server has lots of bad tanks, true, but even the really good ones, with awesome gear(DPSd altruns of the 2 best guilds on the server, with one of their main-team members tanking both of them, and I was very close to pulling, especially from the DK when we were at Saurfang25. The warrior from the best guild was a bit ahead, but I still had to use Cower now and then.
That isn't threat management, that's removing my ability to do my job, while many other classes get way better threat reduction spells. I realize that warriors are worse off than me, but still.

[shadowkras]

Druids have more HP than other tanks? That got changed, druids have no advantages anymore.

They still have 10% more, dks have 4 or 6% more, and paladins/warriors have same stamina.
Bears and DKs also have more armor, to balance the lower avoidance.

[Soul Hermit]

Get used to watch your aggro in Cataclysm.
Happy Trigger DPS will come to know this in the hard way

[Mirishka]

Without meaning to sound like a special snowflake, I play a warrior tank and aren't experiencing any issues with threat in pulls that are executed properly (e.g. I'm the one pulling, not the mage). I did a heroic gauntlet early yesterday morning to get some BOA items for my druid, and was complimented several times on my threat (and dps in some pulls).

In ICC? I'm pulling 8-10k dps on some bosses and can do 17k+ dps on some trash pulls. Blood and Thunder + slow weapon ftw.

On beta, threat wasn't an issue in 85 heroics, but getting killed sure was! XD

[Arlee]

Well it is actually not a good comparison to use dps threat vs tank threat right now. As with the other pre-expansion patches the lvl that dps in general can put out and the lvl of threat a tank can get initially is unbalanced. This should right itself in cata though paying attention to your aggro especially in the beginning of a fight is never a bad idea.

@Mirishka: I would say your dps probably respects your tanking and doesn't start nuking as you are pulling. In most cases if equally geared tank and dps attack at the same time it will be hard for a tank to keep the mob.

[konaman]

Why is everyone responding with So you actually have to watch your aggro? oh noes! this is not a problem with me out aggroing the tank because I am the tank the problem is that in taunting boss fights whichever tank picks up the boss first has the vengeance advantage and I find that it can be difficult taunting off them when they now have so much extra ap.

[arel00]

I really don't see where all these threat problems come from...
Ok, I realize *that* mage doing a gazilion DPS may have problem, but problems between tanks? Really...

Next time I'll hear you don't break 20k TPS inside ICC :P
Oh, and this comes from someone who tanks with all 4 classes. Indeed.

[Kiryia]

I know this is old news to all of us tanks but I was tanking ICC 10 on my paladin yesterday with a druid and I was having a few threat problems. So first off because vengeance is related to your total health that means that bear tanks are getting a bit more ap then an equally geared tank of another class doesn't it? Secondly I was having problems on fights where we needed to taunt off each other for example during saurfang. Since the druid went first he had built up most of his vengeance already and once it was my turn to taunt I was having a lot of trouble holding top threat which is something I do not have a problem doing with other tank classes. Some of this has to do with the fact that he was in full 264-277 gear where as I'm in a mix of 251-264 but even still I found the amount of threat is was pulling was insane compared to mine. So I wanted to suggest another mechanic to vengeance and wanted to see what you guy/girls think about it. How about some sort of shared vengeance mechanic similar to the blood link mechanic for blood queen where if two tanks were on a boss they would each generate the same percentage of vengeance even if only one of them was taking damage.

Not only do DPS have to watch threat but in the situation you described your OT should be watching it to. If it's a fight like Saurfang it's probally safer to have the previous tank just stop attacking until you get a decent lead because of his/her vengeance stacks. Also the shared vengeance is already semi implemented with warriors and their Vigilance ability. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if before to long all tanks have some form of this since it seems they are stream lining all tanks to be about the same. There is no more AoE tanks and single target tanks.

---------- Post added 2010-12-03 at 12:10 PM ----------

Bears have 10% more HP I believe. Savage Defense was nerfed because veng was too op.

Threat is stupid now. In toc25H/icc I have to wait 30 seconds in before I can start dpsing because my threat and damage are absurd compared to tanks threat. Bear mangle coupled with the glyph of berserk and berserking does a ridiculous amount of damage to grab threat. my 2c

Any tank that makes you have to wait 30 seconds should probably review his/her spec and rotation again. My main is a tank but I aslo play a frost mage which has potentially the highest burst threat in game at the moment. The longest I ever have to wait is about 8 seconds then I pop off two 100k deep freeze crits back to back. Tanks have no problem holding threat even on that.

[Tharkkun]

Why is everyone responding with So you actually have to watch your aggro? oh noes! this is not a problem with me out aggroing the tank because I am the tank the problem is that in taunting boss fights whichever tank picks up the boss first has the vengeance advantage and I find that it can be difficult taunting off them when they now have so much extra ap.

In those situations the tank who was taunted off of needs to just stop doing things for a few seconds. I ran into this problem on Saurfang and Putricide even before vengeance was added. Tricks/MD's going off during a swap can kick the mob right back to the other tank if they are still attacking.

[rabbimojo]

They still have 10% more, dks have 4 or 6% more, and paladins/warriors have same stamina.
Bears and DKs also have more armor, to balance the lower avoidance.

Just to note:
Bears: 10% from Bear Form, 6% from HotW, total multiplier: 1.166x
Wars: 15% from Sentinel, total multiplier: 1.15x
Pals: 15% from TbtL, total multiplier: 1.15x
DKs: 9% from VotTW, 2% Runeforge, 8% from presence, total multiplier: ~1.2007x

The differences aren't all that large.