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  1. #581
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    Vanilla was awesome
    TBC was perfect
    Wrath is/was faceroll easymode.
    Cata will be? I am hoping they can top the perfection that was TBC.

    I agree totally .

    Lets hope cata brings back the good willed guild atmosphere and the tbc and vanilla community and enjoyment back into actual progress raiding not the omg we cleared all raids bar 2 bosses in 1 week and farmed hc for a year like wotlolking raiding. bar a few bosses.

  2. #582
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    While I agree with most of what you wrote OP, and think it's spot on, I'd like to add something to the following one:

    Quote Originally Posted by Italiano1 View Post
    2: The majority of the player base most likely downed less than they said they had - Most never even reached the last tier. What does that say about the playerbase at the time? Only a few guilds out of every realm ever saw the back of Naxx?
    The Vanilla raids were, at the time and probably because of inexperience as well as other factors, hard. They were also seen as harder than they perhaps were, and they took a looong time to do. Add to this that you needed 40 people for most of them, and it simply became something that most of the players didn't do.
    Thankfully, this is no longer the case, now everyone has a shot at seeing the endgame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Italiano1 View Post
    TL;DR? ... WRATH > TBC > VANILLA
    Damn straight.

  3. #583
    Honestly I didn't read the entire OP, but essentialy I agree that nostalgia has greatly exaggerated the quality of past content. Although many negative changes have been made, but as a whole the game has continued to improve and with Cataclysm that trend seems to persist.

  4. #584
    Legendary! Zecora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketbear View Post
    I think you are one of that 5% of the players that doesn't agree with that. which mainly exists out of wrath loving horrible players and players that like the smell in the morning of melting internet cables after a raid the previous night.
    Wow, way to generalise and be offensive!

    I've raided since Vanilla, and I'll gladly say it: I absolutely hated TBC. It was boring and unimaginative, and they still hadn't equalized the classes so that all tanking ones could actually, you know, tank.
    Vanilla beats TBC simpy from being fresh and new and fun because of it. But Wrath beats both hands down. Now, I could insert some general insults against people who disagree with me here, but I'll rather just say that this is my opinion. Go form your own.

  5. #585
    This thread makes me laugh.

    Of course the encounters in BWL were 'typical' Dragon encounters... because these were some of the first! BC raiding was a big step up from Vanilla, and Wrath was an... interesting (and not completely unsuccessful) experiment. But credit needs to be given to Vanilla for starting it all. The raiding experience in Vanilla was ground breaking, and is one of the reasons the game is so succesful.

    So give credit where it's due.

  6. #586
    the one thing i sincerely disagree with this guy on is the opening where he said vanilla raiders were the worst bunch. many vanilla raiders i knew had prior raiding experience with the likes of EQ. not for nothing, but EQ was a game where you either learned to play your class, or you just never got anywhere. also, if it weren't for EQ, i don't believe WoW would be here today

    anyway, we fast forward a couple years, and WoW launches with a massive following, much to blizzard's surprise. after a couple months, the first guilds start making their way through the first (and only) raid instance, MC. there were no bigwigs, dbm, deus vox, or other boss encounter tools at the time. only thing that could be monitored were debuff mechanics (living bomb, burning adrenaline, and similar). beyond that you had to pay attention to the encounter. classes, were pretty much cut and dry. you play a class that can heal, you heal. you play a warrior, you tank. you play any other class, you dps (except for warlocks who pretended to be useful with dots and shadow bolts because, let's be honest, people only wanted warlocks for the imp buff at the time)

    couple years later, TBC launches, the game evolves, hybrids (druids, paladins, shamans) are no longer relegated to healing roles, and have more options to choose from (ret paladins were still awful, however). with TBC comes the introduction of 10 man raids, 25 man raids, and heroic 5 man instances. those heroics were also quite fun in the sense you needed decently capable people to get through (mainly, i cite the shattered halls, steamvaults, shadow labs, arcatraz, and even black morass heroics). hell, you would even need to spend some time rep farming to be able to even enter heroics (initially, the rep required was revered to buy the key. later bumped down to honored). this expansion would also introduce badge vendor gear (which the following expansion would make full use of)

    couple years after TBC, we get WotLK. grind to 80, and with minimal effort, farm heroics with no requirements to meet (just be 80). none of these heroics had anything complicated about them. just anywhere from 3 to 5 bosses that you spend a total of about half an hour killing. after maybe a week or two doing that, you're ready for naxx, or os (eoe needed a key that you would get from naxx). the only things in WotLK that provided any sort of challenge were some ulduar hard modes, and probably the lich king hard mode from what i've heard (i've never done HMLK, so i can't say how hard it is or isn't)

    so now we end the WotLK expansion, and the (mostly) watered-down experience that it was. there were some cool things that happened, i will admit it. while i wasn't completely disappointed with this expansion, i can't say that it was the most impressive time i've spent playing this game. i liked ulduar, and i liked icecrown, and malygos was a fun encounter as well

    with the release of cataclysm, i'm hoping that blizzard does bring back the challenge that i've felt has been lacking in the WotLK expansion. i'm not saying that i miss vanilla, or tbc, that's not it. i like the way the game plays now. i like how the classes and talent trees have evolved. i like how stats have been prioritized according to class/spec. so no, it's not that i want vanilla back. i want the challenges that vanilla, and even TBC, provided

  7. #587
    I'm going to comment on your statement that no boss had anything special, I have only read first page, so I'm sorry if this has already been brought up. Oh and this doesn't mean that I want vanilla back, for me its Tbc->vanilla->Wotlk and from the looks of things, Cataclysm will triumph all.

    Molten Core:
    Straight forward, bosses were designed to withstand attacks for a lengthy time, resulting in fatigued minds and death from lack of healing. (oom)

    Blackwing Lair:
    Razorgore, mind control the boss to destroy eggs and have the raid handle adds until all eggs are dead, then spread out to avoid conflag-chaining.

    Vaelastrasz, debuff which kills you after some time, due to length, tanks needed to rotate. Not a big challenge, other than the fact that you couldn't taunt. And you needed 3 maybe 4 tanks, depending on how well your DPS knew their class.

    Firemaw, aoe debuff, LOS needed to clear and rotate dps.

    Chromaggus, dispell or die. Different powers every week. Will he time lapse? Hide your offtank, everyone eat time lapse to clear aggro. Frost breath? No worries, just spam heal him.

    Nefarian, defeat 42 evil adds to summon the mighty dragon. Pump him down to 20%, and in the meantime experience the different awesome class calls. Oh you forgot to unequip your bows? Well, you best melee him, hunters! All adds ressurrected sub-20%, bop+aoe\be quick on cc or die. While fighting. Maybe a class call, oh mages you say? Everyone sheeped during add phase? Die, run back and don't push him below 20% before the class call has been made.

    Temple of Ahn'Qiraj:
    Skeram, 3 tanks, 1 on each platform and a third in the middle. Dps down 25% to split him in 3, pick them up and kill them. Mind controls will happen, death might occur.

    Huhuran, meat shield needed. 15 players would need to stand in the front to soak the bolts of acid, would randomly target a group of people and put them in a dispellable sleep. But dispelling would make the target take lots of damage.

    Twin Emps, whats not unique about this fight? The two emperors will teleport to eachothers spots every 30. second. One emperor will need to be tanked by a caster, the other by a melee tank. Adds will enrage and go for the healers unless an add tank is used. (We didn't use add tank, we had them kited) Blizzard aoe on a random group, attack the wrong target and it's immune or will knock you back, doing some damage and making people mad.

    Ouro, Tank and spank, will aoe knockback and cyclone people, after some time he'll submerge and the ground will tremble. You'll die fast if you don't move. You might think, lulz, whats so hard about moving? Well, there were a 3 or 4 lines of quake if I remember correctly, and they were fast. instantly dealing damage. Sounds easy, a little tricky in the actual fight.

    C'thun, really? NO boss had any tricky abilities? 40 people, relatively 'small' room, a beam doing 3k damage on average to random person every 3 seconds, which would jump to infinite damage if made possible. (pewpew lazorz?) Summons a buttload of tentacles all throughout the fight, kill them or die. Watch out for Dark Glare, else you gon' get fried. Phase 1 done, sit down and drink fast. Phase 2 starts, Random raid members start getting eaten by C'thun, having to damage the tentacles in his stomach to weaken him. While taking a stacking damage. Meanwhile upstairs.. A massive green eye beam tentacle spawned shooting jumpinglazer on the raid, also that big bad tentacle that oneshots non-tank is on the other side, lacking a tank. While those stupid tentacles that slows you (Thse spawns more frequently in phase 1) are slowing everyone.

    Meh... Yes, I was a hardcore raider in vanilla, no I don't want vanilla back.
    Naxxramas also had some unique fights, MC on that woman lady boss in spiderwing to dispell enrage, Maexxna with her webbing shit. Heigans dance, Four horsemens placements, movement and timing. Loatheb's spores, MC on Razuvious. Kiting on gluth, Thaddius with his +\- debuffs.

    I never cleared naxx. Did alot of tries on horsemen, though. Enough to say that gear back then was poorly itemized in terms of HP\damage output from bosses. Quite a few guilds cleared it, yes. But they were also the ones we see today as the ultimate bosskillers. Some fights you only needed 20 good men, others you really needed everyone on their toes.

    We kicked bad people, and it was very clear who was bad back then. Because you died.. if you stood.. in fire.

    Don't take this the wrong way, I do respect your opinion on the game. Wotlk was not a success to me personally, however, it was a giant success for most people and definitely for Blizzard. Wotlk brought a massive influx of people, and this resulted in more active feedback, more reliable test samples conducted over the year, etc. I'm glad wotlk happened, or else I don't think all these new exciting changes would've been possible.

    I'm looking forward to the years to come, I have no intention of cancelling my subscription. This game is only going one way, and that's straight up.

    Now, if anyone wish to correct me on my examples, please do. My memory is a little vague.
    Last edited by foogy; 2010-12-04 at 07:56 PM.

  8. #588
    The Patient Tyrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italiano1 View Post
    3: No boss had a really intricate mechanic. MC? One big add you tank and spank that spawns a bunch of adds. BWL? Like any typical dragon encounter. NAXX? Majority are again tank and spank with an add or two here and there. You name me any encounter in Vanilla that even came up to the standards of some bosses in SWP or some of the Ulduar Hardmodes.
    from this quote alone i can tell you never did these bosses at level, not only were they 1000x harder but in fact the mechanics did sync together very fluidly, anyone who thinks different is a wrath baby or a BC youngster


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  9. #589
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    Because my post is going on page 30 it will be buried but I'm going to say it anyway......

    Dude you're an utter idiot. At the time with the health/mana pools of the time, those raids were a lot harder than what they were when a lvl 70 would run it in BC or even now. Run an AQ40 pug and tell me how well you did on Twin Emps. Run MC with dungeon set 1 gear with only pre-BC enchants (or unenchanted gear) and tell me how many people blow up on Baron or how long of a fight you have just clearing trash before Magmadar or how long the Sulfuron is without people who know what they're doing. Better yet, if you're Alliance try doing Magmadar with no shaman totems and no fear ward unless you run with a dwarf priest under those same conditions. Make sure you let us know how well you do with the Domo fight too without AOE'ing them all down with the ONE tank you said you need. BWL wasn't a snoozefest either. Fights had to be konwn and you actually had to farm resistance gear for multiple fights in MC, BWL, AQ, and Naxx unlike now where resistance gear doesn't mean jack crap (and why there wasn't any other resistance gear added to the game than the frost resistance sets that were released with Wrath). Ony was real fun if you had a tank that didn't have max fire resistance. Ragnros was fun for everyone who didn't have their fire resistance set on and a fire resist potion. Sapphiron was really fun without a frost resistance set. BTW Naxx was far from being mostly tank & spank fights. Infact you had many fights where there were multiple tanks and/or non-traditional tank tanks (ie priest tanks using mind control).

    You show your ignorance with every word you spoke in your first post. You know nothing about how things were back in vanilla and why only the top 2% of guilds were able to step foot in Naxx before BC hit. You are looking at dungeons you went back and experienced at lvl 70/80 with gear that is nearly 100x better with spells that do 100x more damage/healing with probably 10x the health pools people had back then with about 10x the armor people had back then with boss fights that have been nerfed beyond belief with a mentality of "round em up and AOE everything down".

  10. #590
    I am not really sure why I am even bothering to write something besides "you mad" which would pretty much sum up the whole thing. In the end it will be just a personal matter, you claim that wrath is supposed to be the "best" expansion, I don't agree - so what? It is really hard to take you serious especially if you admit that you only watched videos. Come on every boss encounter video is boring, even if I watched the paragon lkhc video it was really boring and looked liked it didn't take any effort at all although I definitely knew better because it was a good encounter.

  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiano1 View Post
    I'm going to go right ahead and say this: Vanilla raiders were/are probaly worse players than those that began in Wrath and let me explain why.

    I'm not a big fan of writing walls of texts that most people really can't be bothered to read, so i'll easily sum it all up in a few points.

    1: You watch any video of an old ''Vanilla'' Raid. You'll be watching an idiot mashing random buttons, not utilising their dps rotations in anyway (by this i mean randomly moving when totally unecessary)

    2: The majority of the player base most likely downed less than they said they had - Most never even reached the last tier. What does that say about the playerbase at the time? Only a few guilds out of every realm ever saw the back of Naxx?

    3: No boss had a really intricate mechanic. MC? One big add you tank and spank that spawns a bunch of adds. BWL? Like any typical dragon encounter. NAXX? Majority are again tank and spank with an add or two here and there. You name me any encounter in Vanilla that even came up to the standards of some bosses in SWP or some of the Ulduar Hardmodes.

    4: Most Raiders had no idea what theorycrafting is. This goes along with Dps utility i guess. Other than the fact the majority of raiders played with Basic UI's, there's barely any theorycrafting from before BC. Even in BC, there wasn't as much as there is now.

    5: There was nothing complex in balancing gear. Now days you have multiple different stats to juggle around with, meaning insightful decisions need to be made when choosing your gear sets.
    Apparently you know nothing. Did you know that the talents were alot different than they are now?
    There WAS dps rotations, you jsut dont know them because you dont know the vanilla talents or how things worked back then.

    And they are not smashing buttons, what video did you check? Nowadays we have so many skills IT IS SMASHING. Back then WHITE damage, auto attack had a meaning in damage dealing, now it barely has any cuz we just smash every god damn ability we have. Like retri paladins, they completely relied on autoattack and judgement and seal procs for dps. Now you got all the homogenization and retris have so many spells and abilities you would never be only autoattacking while dpsing.
    Majority of the players didnt see naxx because comparing to today the gear was not perfectly statsed for whatever spec you used them for.

    And bosses, tank and spank? wtf, you clearly did not know what the bosses DID and how fatal was whatever they did.
    Lets look at MC, Magmadar for example now you can solo it WOW...back then the fires that were put on the ground killed you in 5 seconds and if you were feared into them...it was pretty easy to die.
    Gehennas, rain of fire + healing reduction curse, the rain kills you as fast as fire in ToTC 25 man first boss fire's on the ground on heroic mode, without a dot however.
    And these are just the first bosses you will face in 40 man raiding dungeon.

    Naxxramas was whole other story, players were alot weaker than they were at the start of wotlk in comparison. Patchwerk was a wrecker when he frenzied. Let alone 4 horsemen.

    The raid damage taken ratio vs raid DPS was alot harder than it is now.
    Its easy to watch vanilla raid boss vids now and laugh at the people not 'utilizing' their dps rotations when all you know is Wotlk rotations which are alot more intense.

    Sure you can say vanilla dps rotations were boring as hell, but in old raids the dps was not the most important thing at all, most important thing was to cooperate...teamwork... to-have-fun.

    tho its useless to explain this to you since you will never know how it was like when there was no elitists in the game...when it was played because its fun, not because you wanna be better than everyone else.

    I dont know is it vanilla, but i can only imagine how it affected me as raider. I do not mind wipes, i dont even mind dying to stupid things in world because i have money to repair....yet every other guy ive met, in wotlk especially, are crying and leaving pug raids or even dungeons after first wipe just because "omg repairs cost alot"....
    One thing is true about vanilla, raids cost more to raiders than they do now. You needed more than 4 flasks per raid back then. Like 50 potions, battle and guardian, maybe even scrolls, then food, hunters needed alot of ammo, buffers needed reagents alot. Every wipe cost a potion or 2 and repairs, now a wipe only costs repair bill which isnt that large either when my warrior after ress sickness costs 130g and my 5000g is considered poor.
    Last edited by Otaka; 2010-12-04 at 12:58 AM.

  12. #592
    Bloodsail Admiral DownButStillOut's Avatar
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    Back ion the days of Vannilla, MMORPG's were kind of limited on what they could so for boss mechanics, but at the time, Vannilla fights were the shit.
    BeeeeeeeoooooOOOOoooooooooooooooOOOO-FFFSSSHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM!!!
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  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Truesight View Post
    People always player-hatin' on content they never experienced.

    Tell ya what:

    Take 40 of your best friends. Form a raid. Now go run an instance you've never seen anything but videos on, i.e. AQ or original Naxx.

    What, that doesn't sound too hard?

    Ok, now go do it without Deadly Boss Mods, or Clique, or Grid. Or a 30% buff. Or vendor welfare gear. Or overpowered dps.

    Right? Welcome to vanilla.
    You forgot to add:

    -HoTs did not stack
    -90% of buffs/spells were party-based and not raidwide.
    -Threat actually matters and plays a VERY LARGE role in raiding
    -Untauntable bosses
    -No AoE tanking
    -No boss timers
    -Either shamans (Horde) or Paladins (Alliance), not both
    -Bosses hit for 2/4 of the tank's health
    -Limited amount of debuffs on mobs. (I think it was 20, remember: there's 40 players!)
    -Timing in healing is crucial and had to be coordinated with the other healers (5-second rule)
    -You will go OOM if you just spam your spells
    -Most bad stuff 1-2 shots you if you do not play correctly

    Feel free to add more.

  14. #594
    Hahahahahaha...i can not believe how narrow minded some people are

    Why are you playing wow in the first place ? For the graphics ? Or for the joy of playing ?
    All tho i didnt play in vanilla i did play in TBC

    Wotlk is better in terms of graphics and the complexity of the game...
    But NOTHING can compare the the simple joy i felt when i first entered Karazhan....
    When wotlk hit live and i dinged lvl 80...got into naxx 2 days after and wasnt exited at all....I am even more exited on entering lvl 60 raid instances than wotlk ones...

    And that my friends...is why wotlk sucks...

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