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  1. #1

    Anakin Skywalker was evil from the beginning

    Over a year ago I came across a discussion here on MMO-champion where people were discussing the Light Side/Dark Side and who was to blame for Anakins' conversion. Despite being quite a long time ago, I recently started thinking about this subject and felt like bringing it up again.

    I remember that some people claimed that the Light Side and the Jedi Order were responsible for what happened to Anakin, blaming their strict Jedi Code and saying that if Anakin didn't have to hide his love for Padmé (since Jedis' are not allowed to have relationships), he wouldn't have turned to the Dark Side. I see several fundamental flaws with this way of thinking.

    First of all, the Jedi Order has these kind of rules in order to ensure discipline. Affection, wonderful as it might be, clouds your judgement and makes it difficult to see things objectively. This is obviously not an easy way to live your life, but if a person is unwilling to adhere to this, he or she should not have become a Jedi in the first place.

    Second, Anakin had deep emotional issues, and even as a teenager it was obvious that he had a dangerous personality. A few examples from Episode II, which was before the Chancellor "befriended" him:

    - When he brings Padmé to Naboo they're lying in the grass and talking about politics. Anakin thinks a dictatorship would be the best way to rule the Republic.
    - When they capture the Bounty Hunter that tried to assassinate Padmé. Obi-Wan remains calm but Anakin is obviously upset when he shouts at her to tell them who hired her; a sign of his emotional personality that meditation failed to suppress.
    - The Sand People incidence. No explanation needed.

    I'm honestly not entirely sure why I made this thread, but I just think it's wrong to blame the Jedi Order for his mistakes. I'm curious of what you guys think though. Do you feel that the Jedi Code is too strict and that they're at fault for Anakins' betrayal?
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  2. #2
    I wouldn't say he was evil from the beginning. But he was unstable. I think their mistake was training him in the first place.

  3. #3
    I believe the Jedi Order is partly to blame for it. Especially ObiWan kept going with his "Dont worry, you are the Chosen one!". That said, Anakin was still very arrogant in a lot of things he did. Yet also very unsure.
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  4. #4
    If you follow any of the Extended Universe lore (though it may not even be considered canon now, thanks to Disney) the New Jedi Order no longer prevents emotions and relationships, things of that nature. I would be far more inclined to believe that the Jedi Code of old was simply unrealistic, and was a flaw that was supposed to be highlighted in the story. It was never a case of the Jedi being perfect and the Sith being wrong. Bringing balance to the Force essentially meant eliminating both Orders, because both were effectively wrong. Having said that, I agree that Anakin always did appear unstable, and likely would have eventually found his way to the Dark Side with or without Sidious manipulating him. But if the Jedi were more open to all sides of the Force instead of shunning Dark Side powers, even that may not have mattered.

  5. #5
    One could say that the way Anakin was presented in the movies made him look like he was evil from getgo

    But then again movies failed exceptionally in creating his character to be any sort of likeable and sensible human being
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  6. #6
    Well he was...impressionable. No one becomes evil at a whim, no one can be encouraged to become evil. Unless the seed of moral ambiguity has already been sown.

  7. #7
    i blame liam neeson for it all

  8. #8
    Nah, he was just a kid. He never grew up since he was sheltered from society, and he had enormous power both real and political backed up by what looked like divine decree. The point of the jedi order is to move people far enough away from those human aims fears and desires that they don't use their power to over come these sorts of things.

    Seriously, how bad would things have gotten if you had mind control and telekinesis at age 12.
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  9. #9
    he was destine to go dark imo. After all at the time of the prequels, the sith were all but gone and he was the one to bring balance to force, sooooo darkside needs more power thus him.
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  10. #10
    I think the Jedi themselves are inherently evil, so no matter what once Anakin came to their attention he was pretty well doomed. It was just a matter of whether he became an evil Jedi or an evil Sith.

    (Fair warning: I didn't read the books that go past the original trilogy, so refer only to the old Jedi council; the new Jedi order I see mentioned in this thread may well not be evil at all, I don't know.)

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Templar 331's Avatar
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    The Jedi way is about discipline and purity. You can't expect someone "normal" who freely expresses his/her feelings to perfectly adhere to this way of life. That's why Yoda said Anakin was too old to begin the training. He had already experienced emotional freedom.

    And with Anakin wanting a dictatorship, he was brought up as a slave. In order to survive as one he had to follow a master without incident. That can affect you subconsciously. It makes you dependent on singular authority. One master calling the shots. A dictatorship isn't necessarily evil, but it more often than not leads to corruption.

    But in the end, Anakin wasn't evil. He was just a bitch who couldn't face reality. He was so afraid to lose Padme he made a deal with his sworn enemy to save her and ended up killing all his comrades to do it. If he had been allowed to feel emotions growing up he would have learned to handle it. But because the Jedi made him repress his emotions they exploded and he couldn't do what was right.
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  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Captain Nemo's Avatar
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    The way they built up Anakin's character in the prequels was weak and overall terrible. In the original trilogy, Obi Wan always mentions what a good hearted person Anakin was and how good friends they were. How he was a shining example of a good Jedi before Palpatine swayed him to the dark side.

    They literally never showed this. All we hear about their adventures and friendship is from very minimal dialogue from them when they have some downtime. I don't recall them showing how Anakin was a good hearted person throughout the films either. He was always unstable, weird, cocky, and angry. He never even became a Jedi. So to be honest, don't really take the prequels as canon. They don't tell his story well, they don't develop his character, and they pretty much reverse a couple things that were said in the original films.

    But yes, if you're following the prequels, Yoda and the rest of the council recognized it would be bad to let Anakin train and they saw how unsure and strange he was acting. They should have kept a closer eye on him. He was a weak minded and unstable individual from the get go. Which of course drove him to being manipulated, stupidly fast, by Palpatine to give in to the dark side to save his girl. Whom he almost killed at the end...yeah I really didn't like the prequels lol.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 2015-05-17 at 03:08 AM.
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  13. #13
    Dreadlord Icaras's Avatar
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    I fully agree that ultimately he didn't have the right personality to be a Jedi, and Yoda clearly saw this, and possibly didn't fully understand himself exactly what was wrong, hence he stayed vague and didn't pull Qui Gon aside and fully explain, which is probably should have done.

    I reckon if he'd been refused as a Jedi, he'd have ended up as a republic pilot or something similar, and led a much happier life...hell, the Star Wars universe in general would have been happier, as there would be no angry emo young jedis for Palpatine to corrupt(maybe, lol)

    I also suspect as a pilot/solider/whatever he could either just go and buy his mum and family back(I doubt her value as a slave on a shithole like tattoine would take long for a pro solider/pilot to save up for)...or just get some republic trooper and pilot mates and on a rostered day off just go and get his mum and family. I doubt the floaty bastard(Watto?) has the connections or funds to find Anakin if he did grab his mum and go back to Corsucant, let alone do anything if he did manage to find him. On the capital he'd prolly be chucked in jail if he admitted to owning slaves .

    Thinking about it...Anakin was kind of a dick to never go and save his mum. Given he was friends with a queen and council member, surely he could have said not long after episode 1 "Can you hire some grunts to go save my family and bring them here? You know, them still being slaves and all..."
    Or even just sent some jedi to save her, I'm willing to cut Qui Gon some slack for not saving her given the events and that he dies at the end, but surely they'd have been willing to send a few jedi to save the family of their newest member. Otherwise Yoda and Mace Windu would be massive douches.
    Last edited by Icaras; 2015-05-17 at 03:58 AM.
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  14. #14
    You guys aren't thinking of the prophecy. Everything that Anakin was is what he needed to be. Palpatine was going to take over regardless if Anakin was there or not and he would of unlocked the secret of living forever. Vader was there to kill Palpatine in the end whereas if he hadn't of been brought on to train as a jedi he wouldn't of been.

  15. #15
    He shouldnt have been trained to be a jedi, he was to old, to emotional. Besides what does it matter, he is a far cry from the most powerfull sith, nor did he even come close to killing as many people as other sith lords did. In the end he was a puppet for sidious plain and simple.

  16. #16
    He wasn't evil from the beginning, He was always a "Do what needs to be done" sort of person. Palpatine used that trait to turn him in the end. Since he found out Padme was going to die and everything he ever did was to keep his closest loved ones Alive.

    He only truly became "Evil" when he stopped Palpatine from being killed by Mace Windu so that he didn't lose Palpatines Knowledge of Saving Padme.
    Once that happened Palpatine made him believe the Jedi were the evil ones and after Having himself Cut up and left to burn on Mustafa, Padme dying and the Jedi being slaughtered with Order 66 I think he just decided to go with the flow. Until he Saved Luke from Palpatine and redeemed himself by killing the Emperor.

    Anakin in the Clone Wars series really shows the struggles he had since he always tried to do Good, but would sometimes come under influence of the Dark for "The Greater Good" i.e: Interrogating someone, Killing someone, Disregarding Orders to save people he had "attachments" to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronius View Post
    - When he brings Padmé to Naboo they're lying in the grass and talking about politics. Anakin thinks a dictatorship would be the best way to rule the Republic.
    - When they capture the Bounty Hunter that tried to assassinate Padmé. Obi-Wan remains calm but Anakin is obviously upset when he shouts at her to tell them who hired her; a sign of his emotional personality that meditation failed to suppress.
    - The Sand People incidence. No explanation needed.
    1) He thinks a dictatorship would actually Help since he thinks thousands of Senators constantly stalling to make decisions was a bad thing, Wouldn't say it is Evil just differing Ideologies.
    2)The Bounty hunter which just tried to kill the love of his life, Once again not evil I'm sure most people would react that way.
    3)They Killed his mother, he took revenge. Not really Evil again. Punisher did the same in Marvel yet he is not "evil"
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  17. #17
    Elemental Lord Mall Security's Avatar
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    Anakin was evil from the beginning no amount if hugs or compassion or circumstances would change it. It was his destiny thus already written.
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  18. #18
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    I don't understand the viewpoint some people take that the Jedi order being "too rigid" made it evil. Like Anakin himself said in Attack of the Clones - the Jedis merely forbid attachment. They don't forbid emotion, they don't forbid love, they don't forbid relationship (though they forbid being "in a relationship), they don't forbid intimacy. Unfortunately, people can't see how you hold both these ideals at the same time (detachment versus love), and have never studied the Greek philosophers and the notion of agapic love.

  19. #19
    The Jedi code was ridiculous and completely stupid. They also should have done a better job of monitoring their "chosen one" and making sure he wasn't being manipulated and whatnot. That said they also really shouldn't have even trained him in the first place. I'd say the majority of the blame falls on Qui gon Jinn for pushing so hard for his training. Then I'd blame Obi-Wan for continuing his training, and finally I'd say the Jedi order (particularly Yoda as the head) are the least at blame since they did say it was too dangerous but still caved to Obi-Wan and Qui gon's wishes.

    I don't think you can blame Anakin at all for this one. He was a child when he joined the order and he basically had two options. He could remain a slave and have a miserable life or he could go off and become a Star Wars superhero. As an 8 year old boy which would you choose? Oh, and don't forget that Palpatine is the one who corrupted him in the first place. Now, I guess you could say that Anakin should have resisted more, and you'd be right, but I think there are a lot more people to throw blame on before we start blaming him.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Icaras View Post
    Otherwise Yoda and Mace Windu would be massive douches.
    I think the prequels do a pretty good job of establishing that this is, in fact, correct. Especially WRT Mace, whose only scene where he's portrayed as sympathetic was cut for time. But then, he's pretty much a Dark Jedi based on his lightsaber style, so you can't expect too much. Still, they control the Council and the Jedi won't do anything about the galactic slave trade as a direct result of their non-interventionist policy. Qui-gon could have made everyone's life a lot easier if he had just decapitated Watto when he got uppity, no one would have missed one junk dealer on a lawless dump like Tattooine anyway. I suppose this informed Obi-Wan's decision to just cut down the criminals in the Cantina when they badgered Luke decades later, though.
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