Titans and Old Gods

[Wickedwookie]

First of all, I'm a new poster on these forums (even though I've been actively reading them since they came online), and I hope I haven't misplaced my thread here.

Now, I'm a big fan of the Warcraft lore, and apart from the last 2 novels I've read all of them and the additional story info found in game manuals, wowwiki, wowpedia and the official site.

Now I'll sum up a few facts the general community here seems to know about the lore (for confirmation).

The Pantheon is at war with the Old Gods (many are still in the universe, 4-5 have been imprisoned beneath Azeroth).
Obviously, the Pantheon are the shapers of worlds and generally the "good guys". Old Gods play the role of "bad guys".
Old Gods and Titans are more or less evenly matched depending on their individual strength, considering the Pantheon almost had to use their full power to be able to imprison the Old Gods beneath Azeroth.
Slaying them was out of the question, it would destroy all life on Azeroth because of the Curse of Flesh that took hold of all life in the Pantheon's absence.

These were the facts, which I think I formed correctly from what I know about the lore (I know I also skipped a lot of side info but it's irrelevant).

Now, here's what I'm wondering:
The heroes of Azeroth (those of us who raid among us) have already slain 2 Old Gods and Arthas as a Death Knight has slain 1.
The first one was slain in the underground Nerubian Empire in WC3's expansion the Frozen Throne by Arthas as a Death Knight (just before he became the Lich King), the second one was C'thun in Ahn'Qiraj, the third one being Yogg-Saron in Ulduar. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we more or less killing ourselves if we keep this up?
Supposedly we'll be fighting another Old God in one of the Cataclysm raids, that makes 4 Old Gods dead and only 1 keeping us alive (their presence keeps the Curse of Flesh alive on Azeroth, thus it's inhabitants as it was explained by the lore).

Also, if Old Gods are supposed to have a more or less equal power to the Titans, why is Azeroth so "scared" of Sargeras and his Burning Legion?
Sargeras has already lost some of his power by infusing Aegwynn with part of his own essennce to take control of Medivh (who also died in the meantime essentialy "vaporizing" Sargeras' essence trapped within him). Of course he has an "infinite" amount of minions, but they were beaten in the War of the Ancients as well, right? And now we have more mortal races than back then (Orcs, Humans, Worgen, Draenei, Forsaken, Goblins etc didn't exist yet) and we can also call upon the Naaru, the most pure Holy beings capable of incinerating Demons who just come close to them.

In short, why do we kill Old Gods? We know they're evil, but taking them down isn't exactly getting us anywhere either. I can easily see a solution in the lore where the heroes team up with the Mages of Dalaran and the Order of the Tirisfalen to strengthen the prisons which contain the Old Gods and banishing their influence to the mortal races.

And Sargeras hardly seems like the epic bad guy he used to bbe if heroes are already capable of slaying Old Gods.

I might be wrong in some of my claims, and I'd like to be corrected if I am, but I'd also like to hear MMO-Champ's thoughts on this.

Edit: Fixed my claim on Sargeras being corrupted by Old Gods, had a mindfart and linked the wrong bits together...

[Abstieg]

The Forgotten One wasn't an Old God, and we're not slaying them, more "defeating" them.

[Powerogue]

when you put it that way, sargeras sounds like a pansy. only reason we haven't killed him yet is he's still banished off somewhere recuperating from all the times we owned him.

[Torne]

It was never stated that we "kill" the old gods.
In fact, it is stated (in the comic) that at least C´thun is still "alive" in some form or plane of existence.

Plus, there is no proof that Azeroth will truely be destroyed when the Old gods are dead, neiter is there proof of the curse of flesh being removed upon their deaths. And even if this is the fact, how should our characters know that? They have no access to Wowwiki

[Deleted]

Sargeras was not turned by the whisperings of the Old Gods, but the Nathrezim instead. There is another group of Demons whose corruption may have influenced Sargeras, however the Old Gods did not play a part in his eventual Downfall.

[Deleted]

Slaying them was out of the question, it would destroy all life on Azeroth because of the Curse of Flesh that took hold of all life in the Pantheon's absence.
Sargeras was even corrupted by the Old God's whisperings and went rogue, forming the Burning Legion..

wrong...Sargeras was corrupted by Nathrezim (Dreadlords), not by Old god whispering

edit: damn too late

[Wickedwookie]

At Torne:
Yeah that's partially my lack of knowledge, I haven't read the comics (but I really want to) so I assumed the Old Gods we defeat we actually kill.
Seeing as they have a whole death animation and they don't just disappear but they actually become corpses. Also the Pantheon wage physical war with powers and abilities, and it had already been stated in the lore that the Pantheon had discovered the Curse of Flesh had nested too deeply, and killing the Old Gods would annihilate Azeroth, this is a given fact.
That's why the Pantheon imprisoned the Old Gods and didn't outright kill the Old Gods themselves when they had the chance.
So to continue from that, I thought it was safe to say that killing Old Gods = removal of Curse of Flesh = death of Azeroth

But of course as you say, our heroes don't have access to wowwiki, but thanks to Brann we do have access to the Titan Libraries within Azeroth which might very well contain that information, and giving us the chance to prevent killing any more Old Gods and working on ways to contain them instead.

Edit: My bad, I know he had been corrupted by the Nathrezim but for some reason my mind insisted I type it, mindfart sorry guys.

[Renowned]

I haven't read up on the Old God lore in a while, but I was under the impression that after being imprisoned they went dormant/were essentially banished from the physical realm and had to be resummoned by the Twilight cultists/forgotten ones, etc. I assume that we are merely repeating that same act. Also, as for Sargeras' power, I think he was initially much stronger than the other Titans, and perhaps is still much stronger even after losing some of his power. Even if he isn't, he certainly has a huge army of demons helping him.

[Qprah]

The Pantheon is at war with the Old Gods.
- Yes, The Pantheon represent Order, The Old Gods represent Chaos.

Obviously, the Pantheon are the shapers of worlds and generally the "good guys". Old Gods play the role of "bad guys".
- Yes and No. The Pantheon are shapers of worlds, but if i'm not mistaken, Azeroth was not created by the Pantheon. Azeroth was a world of chaos, controlled by the Old Gods and the Elemental Lords that served them (Ragnaros etc).
When the Pantheon first visited Azeroth, they banished the Elemental Lords to the Elemental Plane, and created order, they then set up the Earthen, Vrykrul, Giants and Mechagnomes into shaping the world. After they left for the first time, the Old Gods came out and undid a lot of their work, unleashing the curse of flesh on many of the Pantheon's minions.
When the Pantheon came back the second time, They fought and defeated the Old Gods, imprisoning them beneath the earth. They also set up the Dragon Aspects to watch over the 5 major aspects of Azeroth (Earth, Life, Magic, Time, Dream).

Old Gods and Titans are more or less evenly matched depending on their individual strength, considering the Pantheon almost had to use their full power to be able to imprison the Old Gods beneath Azeroth.
- It would seem as if the Pantheon were in some way more powerful, if only barely. But its all speculative as we have no real information about it, other than the Pantheon won and the Old Gods lost.

Slaying them was out of the question, it would destroy all life on Azeroth because of the Curse of Flesh that took hold of all life in the Pantheon's absence.
- Not quite, The Old Gods are like parasitic symbiotic organisms, they have merged so far into Azeroth, that they cannot be removed without Azeroth being destroyed along with them. However their physical form can be 'defeated' as they have a strong connection to other planes of existance, similar to that of the Elemental Lords and the Elemental Plane.

Sargeras was even corrupted by the Old God's whisperings and went rogue, forming the Burning Legion.
- Incorrect. Sargaras was corrupted by the dreadlord species of demon, as well as many other forms of demons. He never actually took part in the fight for Azeroth, as he has been corrupted and left the Pantheon long before the Titans even visited Azeroth.


The heroes of Azeroth (those of us who raid among us) have already slain 2 Old Gods and Arthas as a Death Knight has slain 1.
The first one was slain in the underground Nerubian Empire in WC3's expansion the Frozen Throne by Arthas as a Death Knight (just before he became the Lich King), the second one was C'thun in Ahn'Qiraj, the third one being Yogg-Saron in Ulduar. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we more or less killing ourselves if we keep this up?
Supposedly we'll be fighting another Old God in one of the Cataclysm raids, that makes 4 Old Gods dead and only 1 keeping us alive (their presence keeps the Curse of Flesh alive on Azeroth, thus it's inhabitants as it was explained by the lore).

- The 'Old God' that Arthas defeated in the Nerubian Empire was not an Old God at all, merely one of their more powerful minions, similar to the Soggoth(SP?) in Darkshore.
- C'thun and Yogg'Saron were not killed, they were merely 'defeated', Old Gods cannot be killed without also killing Azeroth.
- The Curse of Flesh has nothing to do with the survival of Azeroth, as I explained above.

Also, if Old Gods are supposed to have a more or less equal power to the Titans, why is Azeroth so "scared" of Sargeras and his Burning Legion?
Sargeras has already lost some of his power by becoming infected by the Curse of Flesh himself, and losing some of his power by infusing Aegwynn with part of his own essennce to take control of Medivh (who also died in the meantime essentialy "vaporizing" Sargeras' essence trapped within him).

- Sargaras has an army of trillions upon billions upon millions of demons at his back, he was also the most powerful of all the Pantheon before going off on his own.
- Sargaras was never infected with the Curse of Flesh, he was never on Azeroth (not completely anyway, WotA)
- Aeywynn killed and was infused with the power of the Avatar of Sargaras, which isn't his real form, just a mere shade of himself, for all we know the Avatar could have had 1/1000000th of Sargaras' power, and still been enough to do what he did with Aegwynn and Medivh.

In short, why do we kill Old Gods? We know they're evil, but taking them down isn't exactly getting us anywhere either. I can easily see a solution in the lore where the heroes team up with the Mages of Dalaran and the Order of the Tirisfalen to strengthen the prisons which contain the Old Gods and banishing their influence to the mortal races.

- We dont kill Old Gods, we defeat them and their armies. C'thun had amassed an army of Silithid as well as Qiraji and was preparing to unleash it on Azeroth, by preparing our own army, and hitting the gong when we were ready, and not waiting for them to come to us. We prevented C'thun's army from wiping out the entire planet. Yogg'Saron did the same with the Iron Dwarves, Iron Vrykrul, Iron Giants and Titan Contructs, we just beat him to it like we did C'thun.
- We aren't aiming to kill them, just to eliminate the immediate threat they pose, and to force them back into the earth.. so to speak.

I hope this clears a few things up.

[Wickedwookie]

At Qprah
Awesome, this is the kind of info I was looking for!
Also, I did clear up I was mixing up Neltharion and Sargeras a bit (big lore, I'm only human ) but thanks though.

And yeah, I had it in the back of my mind as well that we were merely defeating physical manifestations rather than actually killing the Old Gods, however I never found information directly confirming this (or contradicting this) so it was an assumption on my part.

I might've confused you with my statement though, when I said "The Pantheon are the shapers of worlds..." I actually meant they seed and structure already existing worlds, I know they don't create the physical worlds themselves but I agree it looked rather confusing the way I typed it, I apologise.

About the WC3 Old God, I was never 100% sure on this before as I found almost no information regarding this being but considering the location and form of the being it must've been one of Yogg-Saron's lieutenants then. Also thanks for pointing out the Darkshire one, I haven't visited that place in a long time and I'm glad they finally did something with it, definitely checking that place out soon.

About the final note, yeah this does make more sense rather than my earlier point of view. I considered it briefly but didn't give it enoough thought.

Thanks a lot for a constructive post, much appreciated and I learned a few things!
I still wonder what we'll do about the Burning Legion though, we beat back Kil'jaeden and all, but it seems unlikely he's biding his time for so long when his master demands Azeroth be taken (merely a setback?).

[Antares]

Sargeras is still a Titan. Like the Old Gods, he can't ever really be destroyed, but he can be defeated. As Powerogue posted, he is currently MIA recuperating from his wounds. He'll probably pull a Deathwing and show up next Expansion.

Sargeras is pretty powerful - I wouldn't underestimate him.

[Qprah]

At Qprah

Yeah sorry about doubling over things that were already said, I started writing it when you first made the post and didnt bother to update it to only include the info that wasn't already stated by others in the time i was writing.

Sargaras like the Titans is still killable, just like the Titans are. The Old Gods are only 'unkillable' because of their connection to Azeroth, they are killable, but at the cost of everyone else dying as well.

Kil'jaeden was only defeated, he'll be back and I have a feeling the next time we see him he wont be playing around. The thing with Elementals and Demons is that you can't really kill them completely on Azeroth, you have to go to their home plane and kill them there, or they will just reform in the home plane and come back again later.
This is seen with Ragnaros, he was kill in our world, Molten Core, and not in the Firelands, so he came back because of that.

Elementals regenerate in the Elemental Plane, you have to kill them there to kill them completely.
And to the same note Demons can only really be killed in the Twisted Nether, otherwise the same thing happens for them. Although I'm sure its not quite that clean cut, different races of demons probably work in different ways.

But the whole Sargaras and Kil'jaeden thing is where its all going in the next expansion or two, you can count on it. (probably the second one after South Seas)

[Wickedwookie]

I really do wonder how the story will go from the point after Cataclysm though.
The thing about Cataclysm is, it feels like the most breathtaking events have already taken place, we pretty much know how it's going to end unless Blizzard gives a good twist we didn't see coming (which I'm hoping for).

I'm not a roleplayer, but a good background story is more or less fundamental for me to like an MMO and this one's great.

Here and there a few things are sketchy though, or misunderstood by most of the community which results in awkward attitudes towards other characters, like Garrosh for instance. He's actually the perfect Orc Warchief in my eyes, he has his flaws but upholds the values the Orcish race stands for like no other does.
He does have a social problem towards other Horde races, but that's how his character is developped and I like it (Sylvanas is also quite a b***h in her own right, to everyone).

[Qprah]

The main issue everyone has with Garrosh is that he was developed poorly. He was given the spotlight long before we were told why he got it, or even how he got it.

I personally dislike him firstly for that reason, It's left a bad taste in my mouth for Garrosh. But secondly because he doesn't know a thing about diplomacy and I personally think it is going to hurt him in the long run.

But then again, that damage is part of what makes a story good, because he isn't perfect.

[Antares]

The main issue everyone has with Garrosh is that he was developed poorly. He was given the spotlight long before we were told why he got it, or even how he got it.

I personally dislike him firstly for that reason, It's left a bad taste in my mouth for Garrosh. But secondly because he doesn't know a thing about diplomacy and I personally think it is going to hurt him in the long run.

But then again, that damage is part of what makes a story good, because he isn't perfect.

Have to admit, I like what he's done for Orgrimmar - Visually.