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  1. #1201
    So I'm a bit of a stand still right now... I know spirit is only good to a degree then mastery takes over... Over the past 2 weeks, I raided with [a spirit 'build'] and [a mastery 'build'] and found that i put out more with spirit instead of mastery. Yes I know it allows me to cast more often because of the regen but that was without mana talents also... So, once again I'm kinda at a stand still to what I should invest my points into and out of...

    Still cant put in links -______- Go figure, but my toon is Sushî (140) on Destromath US.

    Also: Be harsh on my gear I would like to know what I can improve on (Have 4pT12H [Minus helm] and working on 2pT13[Non raid-finder]

  2. #1202
    The Patient Elveren's Avatar
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    I read this thread a few days ago and they talked a bit about if Furor and dropping spirit, or Genesis and keeping spirit was the better option.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...sible-increase

    The OP in that thread came to the conclusion that in his case (saying his case because this may vary) reforging away from spirit and keeping Furor was better. Have a look at some spreadsheet, that will give you the best answer.


    About your gear, not much I can comment on really, except that I'd replace 2 of your purple gems for +40 int (shoulders and gloves). Personally I prefer Lavawalker over a pure mastery/haste enchant on boots.

    Do you raid 10 or 25s? If you raid 10's, I'd suggest removing glyph of WG, especially if you're going to try Morchok heroic soon. If your raid splits in 2 groups for each boss, you'll be out of range for that 6th person most of the time (if not all the time).

    Oh, almost forgot. According to some tests one of the druids in Paragon did, it's not worth to replace your T12 4 set (all 391 pieces) until you get several T13 heroic pieces (I don't remember if he said 3 or 4). So I'd hold on to the 4 set.
    Last edited by Elveren; 2011-12-18 at 02:23 AM.

  3. #1203
    Yes did :-D
    In going to take from my analysis of the spreadsheet tang built... is the sheer AMOUNT of your spirit u can reforge into mastery makes up more of a HPS boost than Genesis. Especially considering Genesis is hots and SM whereas mastery is direct AND hots

  4. #1204
    Hey guys,

    I'm usually pretty resourcefull when figuring out stuff with my druid and have a very good understanding on what works well for my way of healing, am often ranked on WoL's and in a relatively successfull raid team. But have been trying to do some research on whether the 3478 break point with 5% haste & DI is worth it. Have been looking for a while now and can't seem to find any decent information regarding this particular BP.

    Soon I'll be able to hit this point without losing any vital stats but would in turn be sacrificing quite a bit of mastery. Where as if I stick to the 1573 BP (including 5% haste buff and DI) my mastery would be a lot higher and as harmony is always proc'd in my rotation, well 99% of the time, would these extra tiks be worth it or the static increase on heals be more beneficial. Understand that this situation probably hasn't been experimented with much but any advice would be helpful.

    Thanks in advance.

  5. #1205
    Quote Originally Posted by Gags View Post
    Hey guys,

    I'm usually pretty resourcefull when figuring out stuff with my druid and have a very good understanding on what works well for my way of healing, am often ranked on WoL's and in a relatively successfull raid team. But have been trying to do some research on whether the 3478 break point with 5% haste & DI is worth it. Have been looking for a while now and can't seem to find any decent information regarding this particular BP.

    Soon I'll be able to hit this point without losing any vital stats but would in turn be sacrificing quite a bit of mastery. Where as if I stick to the 1573 BP (including 5% haste buff and DI) my mastery would be a lot higher and as harmony is always proc'd in my rotation, well 99% of the time, would these extra tiks be worth it or the static increase on heals be more beneficial. Understand that this situation probably hasn't been experimented with much but any advice would be helpful.

    Thanks in advance.
    I just added Dark Intent option to my Resto spreadsheet. I'm not sure what are your exact gearing, but what I did was to enable Dark Intent on the default profile, set Haste Rating to 1573 and Ratings Delta to 1905 (to compare against 1573 + 1905 = 3478). This gives the IEP value of Haste Rating as .5027 and Mastery Rating at .4182 (for Duration/Raid model), so it does look like it would be worth reforging to 3478 haste rating for you, if you can get that high via reforging.

    If you want to get there via regemming from int gems, the theorycraft for that is slightly trickier, but doable. You'll need to check out the IEP values for the 3272 and 3478 breakpoints.

  6. #1206
    Grunt Judaa's Avatar
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    Char Name: Aduj
    Realm: Galakrond
    Raid: 10M Norm atm

    Ive been reading over this sticky for a while, reading opinions etc. on haste breakpoints, mastery, crit and trinkets and have a few questions. I understand that haste past a breakpoint is useless and from what i read the 2449 breakpoint will be unattainable until next sets. So I suppose my questions is anything past 2005 should be reforged into mastery? OR do I need to balance crit and mastery, because right now I am unbalanced: My haste is currently well past 2005 and my mastery is well below my crit rating. I am thinking I am going to reforge the extra haste into mastery (ie remove some already done reforges) and try to balance the crit and mastery at 17% each if that is even possible.

    Second question is trinkets.. I noticed when checking out the haste breakpoint tool that the petrified egg ilvl 365 is noteworthy. I do have access to:
    Petrified Egg
    Fiery Quintessence
    Jaws of Defeat
    Heart of Unliving
    Foul Gift of the Demon Lord

    I was not fortunate enough to get Eye of Blazing Power or Shard of Woe or heroic versions of what I already have. I have been switching out trinkets situationally ofc and Normally use the FGDL and Jaws for the passive intell. Im wondering if anything has been decided upon the HOU as thats a huge Spirit increase around 780 spirit vs a passive 383 intell. I would like to get thoughts on these trinkets and which ones you would use and why.

    Third question: Meta - I did read about the change to the Burning with the crit .. is it highly recommended to get this one over the Ember Shadowspirit 2% mana?

    thanks

  7. #1207
    Quote Originally Posted by Judaa View Post
    Char Name: Aduj
    Realm: Galakrond
    Raid: 10M Norm atm
    I took your character sheet stats and ran it through http://www.reforgemaster.com/?charac...Load+Character with my preferred settings for Restoration Druid:



    You would be reforging Spirit->Mastery on all your Spirit+Haste gear, then Haste->Mastery on your Cloak and Shoulders to achieve the above.

    I then entered your above stats into my spreadsheet (link in my sig), and made a copy for you into here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3U1VDVUE#gid=0
    Confirmed that Burning is still better than Ember for you despite your low crit. Also confirms that Mastery is still better than Crit despite having a lot more Mastery than Crit. Spirit vs Mastery is a lot more situational depending on the model, but I think the general consensus now is that 2.1k is probably sufficient.
    Last edited by tangedyn; 2011-12-20 at 08:25 PM.

  8. #1208
    Grunt Judaa's Avatar
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    Thank you so much for looking into my mess for me

    I was able to get a few more gear pieces last night; Mindbender lens, and Seal of the Seven Signs and will run Aduj through the optimizer you listed here to make a few necessary changes. I did change the meta to Burning already for the critical effect; changed my spec a little too adding cure in; changed ht glyph to barkskin. I am losing my DI as our warlock seems to put out more damage on his hunter We have a boomkin in our raid and a shaman; with that said, you would still suggest so much spirit to mastery? Keep in mind I heal mostly 10M. Losing so much spirit makes me nervous lol But Im up for trying anything. Thanks again for your help on this.
    Last edited by Judaa; 2011-12-21 at 08:07 PM.

  9. #1209
    If you are not comfortable with losing so much spirit for mastery there's little harm in reverting. It's more of a burst healing vs long term sustainability thing, so it's up to your preference.

  10. #1210
    Quote Originally Posted by Judaa View Post
    Thank you so much for looking into my mess for me

    I was able to get a few more gear pieces last night; Mindbender lens, and Seal of the Seven Signs and will run Aduj through the optimizer you listed here to make a few necessary changes. I did change the meta to Burning already for the critical effect; changed my spec a little too adding cure in; changed ht glyph to barkskin. I am losing my DI as our warlock seems to put out more damage on his hunter We have a boomkin in our raid and a shaman; with that said, you would still suggest so much spirit to mastery? Keep in mind I heal mostly 10M. Losing so much spirit makes me nervous lol But Im up for trying anything. Thanks again for your help on this.
    I have normal jaws and HC eye and am running with 1900 spi. It's plenty if you know when you need to heal like a maniac and when to relax

    edit: by plenty i mean its enough to last a whole fight. i'll prob need more when i get to do HCs, but that wont happen anytime soon with xmas and finals on january D:

  11. #1211
    Quote Originally Posted by Elveren View Post
    Oh, almost forgot. According to some tests one of the druids in Paragon did, it's not worth to replace your T12 4 set (all 391 pieces) until you get several T13 heroic pieces (I don't remember if he said 3 or 4). So I'd hold on to the 4 set.
    It depends. The 4pc T12 isn't that great, and isn't very high on the HPS gain list. 2pc T13 heroic + 2pc T12 is a big upgrade. Having 25% less mana cost for spells after innervate is immensely powerful!

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-22 at 05:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gags View Post
    Hey guys,

    I'm usually pretty resourcefull when figuring out stuff with my druid and have a very good understanding on what works well for my way of healing, am often ranked on WoL's and in a relatively successfull raid team. But have been trying to do some research on whether the 3478 break point with 5% haste & DI is worth it. Have been looking for a while now and can't seem to find any decent information regarding this particular BP.

    Soon I'll be able to hit this point without losing any vital stats but would in turn be sacrificing quite a bit of mastery. Where as if I stick to the 1573 BP (including 5% haste buff and DI) my mastery would be a lot higher and as harmony is always proc'd in my rotation, well 99% of the time, would these extra tiks be worth it or the static increase on heals be more beneficial. Understand that this situation probably hasn't been experimented with much but any advice would be helpful.

    Thanks in advance.
    You shouldn't bet getting DI. It would be more beneficial on a caster, and for you to be at 2005 haste. The breakpoints past that do not out-weight the amount of DPS you are potentially loosing.
    Last edited by Parkwaydrive; 2011-12-22 at 05:29 PM.

  12. #1212
    Quote Originally Posted by Parkwaydrive View Post
    It depends. The 4pc T12 isn't that great, and isn't very high on the HPS gain list. 2pc T13 heroic + 2pc T12 is a big upgrade. Having 25% less mana cost for spells after innervate is immensely powerful!

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-22 at 05:28 PM ----------



    You shouldn't bet getting DI. It would be more beneficial on a caster, and for you to be at 2005 haste. The breakpoints past that do not out-weight the amount of DPS you are potentially loosing.
    There's several instances where the 4PC has saved someone's life in DS. In fact, it's useful in EVERY SINGLE fight that does a whole lot of aoe to a whole lot of grouped people... which is 90% of them. Two swiftmends is HUGE, especially when I've never had a problem where I oom from anything but mismanagement, which the T13 2PC won't help.

    As for DI, it's a toss-up. If it's a healing intensive fight, it's just as good on a druid as anyone else and often 10 man healers get it from lack of anyone better. Who to give DI to shouldn't be a blanket statement like that.

  13. #1213
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    There's several instances where the 4PC has saved someone's life in DS. In fact, it's useful in EVERY SINGLE fight that does a whole lot of aoe to a whole lot of grouped people... which is 90% of them. Two swiftmends is HUGE, especially when I've never had a problem where I oom from anything but mismanagement, which the T13 2PC won't help.

    As for DI, it's a toss-up. If it's a healing intensive fight, it's just as good on a druid as anyone else and often 10 man healers get it from lack of anyone better. Who to give DI to shouldn't be a blanket statement like that.

    There has been lots of math stating the 4pc T12 is less desirable than what you are making it out to be. Use www.treecalcs.com, input your gear and it will tell you how minimal the 4pc really is. It's not 2 swiftmends, swiftmend gives efflo, the extra proc is just an extra heal.

    The 2pc T13 is amazing..I'm not sure if you really know what it does. It can save you so much mana, think about it..You're about to go into black phase on Heroic Zon'ozz, you're at 70% mana and power torrent just procced. You go tree-form, instant RG for Harmony, pop jaws of defeat, innervate and blanket your group with RJ for tons less mana, at the end of that intense phase, you'lll be sitting at around 80% mana. So no, you are wrong the 2pc T13 is absolutely amazing. You need to check your gearing/prioritization.

    DI really isn't a toss up. If there is no one else it can go on, fine. But on a Druid, unless you're at the haste cap for it already (I believe its 916) then it's a waste. Yay you hit a few more ticks (theincbear.com/math/resto-haste-breakpoints). Put that DI on your mage, he can reforge some haste away for crit and do more DPS. DI doesn't really help you heal more, you gain some healing ticks that aren't really important. Trying to get more haste to reach those high breakpoints will reduce your mastery, crit, and over all healing.

    If you're not doing hard modes, then it doesn't matter. Do what you want take DI from whomever you want, it will not matter.
    Source: www.elitistjerks.com

    Edit: Vanyali, when I look at your armory, spec and reforge prioritization I can tell you are on the wrong track. Please stop posting mis-guided information, and take a look at what you're doing. This forum is meant to help newcomers, and people who post wrong information confuse these people who are trying to better themselves.
    Last edited by Parkwaydrive; 2011-12-22 at 08:03 PM.

  14. #1214
    High Overlord Sherylina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkwaydrive View Post
    There has been lots of math stating the 4pc T12 is less desirable than what you are making it out to be. Use www.treecalcs.com, input your gear and it will tell you how minimal the 4pc really is. It's not 2 swiftmends, swiftmend gives efflo, the extra proc is just an extra heal.

    The 2pc T13 is amazing..I'm not sure if you really know what it does. It can save you so much mana, think about it..You're about to go into black phase on Heroic Zon'ozz, you're at 70% mana and power torrent just procced. You go tree-form, instant RG for Harmony, pop jaws of defeat, innervate and blanket your group with RJ for tons less mana, at the end of that intense phase, you'lll be sitting at around 80% mana. So no, you are wrong the 2pc T13 is absolutely amazing. You need to check your gearing/prioritization.

    DI really isn't a toss up. If there is no one else it can go on, fine. But on a Druid, unless you're at the haste cap for it already (I believe its 916) then it's a waste. Yay you hit a few more ticks (theincbear.com/math/resto-haste-breakpoints). Put that DI on your mage, he can reforge some haste away for crit and do more DPS. DI doesn't really help you heal more, you gain some healing ticks that aren't really important. Trying to get more haste to reach those high breakpoints will reduce your mastery, crit, and over all healing.

    If you're not doing hard modes, then it doesn't matter. Do what you want take DI from whomever you want, it will not matter.
    Source: www.elitistjerks.com

    Edit: Vanyali, when I look at your armory, spec and reforge prioritization I can tell you are on the wrong track. Please stop posting mis-guided information, and take a look at what you're doing. This forum is meant to help newcomers, and people who post wrong information confuse these people who are trying to better themselves.
    Equally there has also been maths provided via TreeCalcs suggesting that actually it's not worth switching away from T12 4p until you get at least 3 pieces of heroic T13.

    T12 4p is okay. Not great, but it's okay.

    In all honesty, i don't find any of the T13 set bonuses "amazing". Again, 2pc is okay but just that. Very lackluster compared to other healers 2pc.
    "I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best." — Marilyn Monroe


  15. #1215
    Quote Originally Posted by Parkwaydrive View Post
    DI really isn't a toss up. If there is no one else it can go on, fine. But on a Druid, unless you're at the haste cap for it already (I believe its 916) then it's a waste. Yay you hit a few more ticks (theincbear.com/math/resto-haste-breakpoints). Put that DI on your mage, he can reforge some haste away for crit and do more DPS. DI doesn't really help you heal more, you gain some healing ticks that aren't really important. Trying to get more haste to reach those high breakpoints will reduce your mastery, crit, and over all healing.

    If you're not doing hard modes, then it doesn't matter. Do what you want take DI from whomever you want, it will not matter.
    Source: www.elitistjerks.com
    Have you never even read the dark intent spell tooltip? 9% more healing constant doesn't help you heal more? go smoke something else, you invalidate your other arguements with your ignorance.

  16. #1216
    Quote Originally Posted by axxey View Post
    Have you never even read the dark intent spell tooltip? 9% more healing constant doesn't help you heal more? go smoke something else, you invalidate your other arguements with your ignorance.
    It's actually 3% more healing with HoTs. Don't hurt yourself facedesking now.

  17. #1217
    On the topic of the 4pT12. If you're 2manning lvl 80 instances with a tanking partner, say Naxx, Ony or Ulduar then that 4p is absolutely amazing. You usually don't have to much time to heal yourself in those instances, so that proc on yourself during a Tympathic tantrum is amazing on XT-002 and other fights with non avoidable damage. Just stand close enough to your partner to catch the proc on yourself

    Although it is slightly off topic considering this is not about 2manning old content, I really wanted to mention it, because I'm sure there are more people who like to 2man old content with a friend for kicks and giggles.

    Other than that, depending on your situation in DS, you can always swap between 4pT12 and 2T12+2pT13 if you have the gear. Some encounters have no mana requirements and you could therefore prefer some more throughput by using the 4pT12 instead of the 2 2 pieces. Morchok hc on 10 man doens't really require loads of mana, just fast enough heals. You could compensate with regrowth or just make use of this handy 4p. Although, in the end, the heroic T13 will win out over the heroic 4pT12. Watch your mana and watch the fight and judge what would help your group the most.

    And DI is mostly wasted on us. We don't spectaculairly benefit from it to give it to a resto druid over and other player, say...shadow priest. Sure, the uptime for the lock is amazing, but our output doesn't change by significant amounts that it would warrant to give DI to a resto druid over a dps class who could make better use of it.
    Last edited by Lennea; 2011-12-23 at 01:17 AM.

  18. #1218
    Quote Originally Posted by Parkwaydrive View Post
    There has been lots of math stating the 4pc T12 is less desirable than what you are making it out to be. Use www.treecalcs.com, input your gear and it will tell you how minimal the 4pc really is. It's not 2 swiftmends, swiftmend gives efflo, the extra proc is just an extra heal.

    The 2pc T13 is amazing..I'm not sure if you really know what it does. It can save you so much mana, think about it..You're about to go into black phase on Heroic Zon'ozz, you're at 70% mana and power torrent just procced. You go tree-form, instant RG for Harmony, pop jaws of defeat, innervate and blanket your group with RJ for tons less mana, at the end of that intense phase, you'lll be sitting at around 80% mana. So no, you are wrong the 2pc T13 is absolutely amazing. You need to check your gearing/prioritization.

    DI really isn't a toss up. If there is no one else it can go on, fine. But on a Druid, unless you're at the haste cap for it already (I believe its 916) then it's a waste. Yay you hit a few more ticks (theincbear.com/math/resto-haste-breakpoints). Put that DI on your mage, he can reforge some haste away for crit and do more DPS. DI doesn't really help you heal more, you gain some healing ticks that aren't really important. Trying to get more haste to reach those high breakpoints will reduce your mastery, crit, and over all healing.

    If you're not doing hard modes, then it doesn't matter. Do what you want take DI from whomever you want, it will not matter.
    Source: www.elitistjerks.com

    Edit: Vanyali, when I look at your armory, spec and reforge prioritization I can tell you are on the wrong track. Please stop posting mis-guided information, and take a look at what you're doing. This forum is meant to help newcomers, and people who post wrong information confuse these people who are trying to better themselves.
    You failed to make your point that 2t13 is worth dropping 4t12. All you did was argue that 2t13 is good, and that 4t12 isn't as good as people think. If your really going to make a comparison, then you need to compare them on terms that are comparable. One is a mana saving bonus, one is a throughput bonus. You either need to look at the mana saving value of the healing that 4t12 puts out, or the throughput gain you might have from additional spells to be cast due to mana saving from 2t13/throughput gain from being able to reforge out of more spirit.

    In other words, making a comparison is more complicated than just throwing out some scenario where 2t13 is really good - you could do that with anyones set bonus - it doesn't prove your point. Fortunately for us, other people have already done the mathematical comparison that I just described above, and determined that you need three pieces of heroic tier 13 to make the dropping of 391 t12 worthwhile. Unless you can make an argument based on concrete facts that state otherwise, saying that "they are wrong and I'm right" does nothing to serve the druid community except confuse others that might not have the knowledge to judge such arguments.

  19. #1219
    Tested 4pç t12 and 3 t13+ 2 t12 on all fights , only 2 hm tho,

    The only fights that i found 4t12 being better than 3t13+2t12 was on yorsajh heroic, but i would never go back to 4t12 , that inervate with mana reduc.(2 t13) is simply all i wanted in a long long time, and you should use it if you know to play the class .. hugs! (sory bout bad english)

    edit: 4pc 12 was realy good when our heal setup/raid in general was very messy and we couldnt thrust on the other heal.(i play 10m atm)
    Last edited by hempaa; 2011-12-23 at 05:30 PM.

  20. #1220
    Quote Originally Posted by Parkwaydrive View Post
    There has been lots of math stating the 4pc T12 is less desirable than what you are making it out to be. Use www.treecalcs.com, input your gear and it will tell you how minimal the 4pc really is. It's not 2 swiftmends, swiftmend gives efflo, the extra proc is just an extra heal.

    The 2pc T13 is amazing..I'm not sure if you really know what it does. It can save you so much mana, think about it..You're about to go into black phase on Heroic Zon'ozz, you're at 70% mana and power torrent just procced. You go tree-form, instant RG for Harmony, pop jaws of defeat, innervate and blanket your group with RJ for tons less mana, at the end of that intense phase, you'lll be sitting at around 80% mana. So no, you are wrong the 2pc T13 is absolutely amazing. You need to check your gearing/prioritization.

    DI really isn't a toss up. If there is no one else it can go on, fine. But on a Druid, unless you're at the haste cap for it already (I believe its 916) then it's a waste. Yay you hit a few more ticks (theincbear.com/math/resto-haste-breakpoints). Put that DI on your mage, he can reforge some haste away for crit and do more DPS. DI doesn't really help you heal more, you gain some healing ticks that aren't really important. Trying to get more haste to reach those high breakpoints will reduce your mastery, crit, and over all healing.

    If you're not doing hard modes, then it doesn't matter. Do what you want take DI from whomever you want, it will not matter.
    Source: www.elitistjerks.com

    Edit: Vanyali, when I look at your armory, spec and reforge prioritization I can tell you are on the wrong track. Please stop posting mis-guided information, and take a look at what you're doing. This forum is meant to help newcomers, and people who post wrong information confuse these people who are trying to better themselves.
    lol... bring on the insults, man. Sorry that I don't play exactly like you, but luckily, druid doesn't require that! Check out WoL, I do pretty fine. And if you want to comment on specs, if you still need furor that's why T13 2PC is good for you, if you think BoTG is better than genesis you haven't read the math that hard, and you don't have NS, which is stronger than the extra point in BoTG.

    As I said, on healing intensive fights and/ or 10-mans DI is fine on a druid. You may not agree, you may not like it, but it's true. That's why some druids gear around it. As for losing mastery/ crit for DI, you GAIN mastery/ crit if you forge around the 1517 point, which is what most druids are doing that get it.

    As for T13, again, I have NEVER had a fight, heroic or otherwise, where I'm oom mid-fight unless it's a horrible attempt or I screwed up. My comp simply does not let this happen easily - I have a boomie that looks after me, two-three priest hymns, and a mana tide. That's what makes druid healing so dynamic: we shift spec, gear and spell use depending on comp and trinket availability and a myriad of other things.

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