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  1. #1241
    If you spec for throughput and end the fight with mana to spare, your raid is simply not taking enough damage to challenge you, and you would most probably have beaten the fight anyway if you had specced for sustainability instead.

    If you spec for sustainability and ended the fight with zero mana, you would probably have wiped if you had specced for throughput instead.

  2. #1242
    You are treading in a dangerous path assuming that your spec is the definitive spec, that anyone with a different opinion are all "relegated to the lol-pile". All it takes is a few counter-examples to show that your 'definitive spec' may not be as definitive as you think it is. I picked the first three resto druids that I can find from guilds that have killed H Madness of Deathwing, let's check out how they are specced:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...talent/primary
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...talent/primary
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lent/secondary

    Hmm... all three of them have 3 in Moonglow and 2 in Furor.

    I then checked out your armory and WoL parses. So you're 7/8 10N DS, then I see that your raid group is not only 3-healing every single fight, but you are all ilevel ~390, outgearing Normal DS! Well, of course in this case YOU will not have mana issues.

    You screwed up royally by taking your own experiences healing content that you outgear with more healers than is really required, and assume that everyone, up to and including those doing Heroic Madness will experience the exact same thing.

    BTW, good luck with Normal Madness. It's a 15 minute fight.
    Last edited by tangedyn; 2011-12-31 at 09:23 PM.

  3. #1243
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    People are way too stuck on FL. FL you could drop most regen and be fine. Besides HM Rag really, you could run with a full throughput spec if you played with a good guild.

    DS isn't FL. Don't make assumptions off reg modes 1st off. Regs mean nothing. People are pugging and clearing regs with terrible players with only madness really giving them any trouble. Especially 10s. I've pugged 7/8 10 DS on my alt with a bunch of mediocre players.

    In FL, you could spam pretty much anything with no mana problems. Throughput > regen because you just didn't need it. If you went full throughput, even with blanket RJing you really didn't have problems.

    After the WG nurf, blanket RJing is pretty common. We're having to use more spells to keep at the same level of throughput we put out before. In DS, it's pretty pointless to run anything outside of 2/3 furor 3/3 MG unless your guild is casual and stuck in regs forever. In that case, it doesn't matter what you run...

    So yes, this tier in HMs using full regen is better than dropping it for throughput on the majority of fights, which is what you build your spec on. T11 wasn't T12. T12 isn't T13. You can't base things off what you did last tier, because shit changes. The amount of spells we have to use now, the length of fights, the type of dmg/mechanics going out, and our niche makes more regen better.

    Once everyone is way overgeared for the fights, this may change. But as of now, it's not the case.

  4. #1244
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    Again, you are looking at it from a very narrow point of view. You are telling people to spec out of furor/MG when for the majority of people, they need to stay in it. Those are both pretty mandatory points for anyone in HMs, which is where pretty much anyone reading a guide like this should be at since norms can be facerolled through.

    You are having no mana problems because you run too many healers. In 10s I can make it to the last platform with 100% mana because nothing but the last platform is even remotely hard. Last platform + p2 is where you actually start healing and people start taking real dmg. Furor is not an awful talent. As said again, in the past regen(and yes, furor ends up equaling to regen) wasn't as important and throughput. The extra healing from Gen ended up outweighing the extra regen from furor. this is not the case anymore.

    You are debating your own evidence from 7/8 normal 10s as fact against numbers and actual logs from players 7/8 and 8/8 HMs. When actually looking at hard fights(madness, HMs) until you are overgeared which even top players aren't yet, the regen is more important.


    You also state
    Like most end tier fights, you will probably have a spec just for progressing on it.
    then
    Oh, and by the way, two of the three armories you linked are putting points in blessing of the grove. Quick, go tell them how horrible they are.
    /facepalm
    ...


    I understand a lot of the time when min/maxing it can get confusing. Some things seems good or correct when they aren't and when looking at them makes no sense. But you are arguing with real numbers against how you feel when you are playing through faceroll content with an extra healer.

    Most if not all top players are playing with both regen talents through HM DS. Not just Madness, but all of the fights. YOU may not need it, or think you don't need it. But giving advice based off that will get people arguing with you. You are giving people bad advice.

  5. #1245
    Yes, it is wrong and they probably should put that point into Living Seed instead, but you are then using this mistake to imply that they don't know anything about mana regen and therefore their choice to take Moonglow and Furor must be wrong too. This is a classic Strawman argument which isn't really going to fool anyone here. In reality, the loss of throughput taking BotG over LS is small and unnoticeable. The effects of losing Moonglow and Furor, however, is definitely noticeable.

    From my spreadsheet, 2 points in Furor gives about 50MPS averaged over the entire fight. For a 15 minutes fight this will be about 45k mana.

    Again, if you are overgeared for a fight, you are going to beat it whether you are specced for throughput or for sustainability. You've been trying to imply that throughput is the only way to go, which is really laughable.

    Just because your spec works for you doesn't mean it is the best spec. Especially not when you don't really have the experience.

  6. #1246
    If you don't like my spreadsheet, that's fine. Fortunately, not everyone shares your opinion.
    You see, when people look around for credible advice, they will either look for someone whose advice is backed up by sold maths, or by solid experience.
    I can offer the former. Unfortunately, you can offer neither.

  7. #1247
    Out of curiosity, midazolam, have you raided any of the heroic t13 content at all?

    It's kind of moot to argue about apples when others are talking about oranges. You can run with whatever spec you want in Normals and be able to clear it. Hard modes are a little less forgiving and are a little more dangerous...

    It's fine and dandy that you like your spec and that it works for you. Your spec and what you do won't work for those working on hard mode content.

  8. #1248
    High Overlord Sherylina's Avatar
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    8/0/33 is a great talent build, there's no doubt about that. I use it myself and have used it throughout Firelands including heroic rag with 3 healers and for most of T11 content as well. That said, i think it is more a spec you aim to get the regen from gear to be comfortable enough to be in than the spec to start out in.

    Normals are very easy and can easily be healed by pretty much any setup and it doesn't matter whether you have points in Furor or LS as you most likely would have killed it anyway. My guild disbanded at the end of Firelands so i haven't raided any heroics this tier and i realise this disqualifies me to be telling other people what spec they should raid as and it should be the same for you.

    If you can kill lots of heroic content using the above spec then hats off to you and your point would be viable but if you haven't then you don't really have a leg to stand on tbh :P

    I'm not having a pop at you but thats just my two cents. Nice BIS list btw.
    "I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best." — Marilyn Monroe


  9. #1249
    Quote Originally Posted by midazolam View Post
    And you really think that 45,000 mana over a 15 minute fight is worth 2 talent points? That's 50 mp5... 25 mp5 per talent point... REALLY? You think that's a good trade off? That's the equivalent of 35 spirit per talent point (at my current int level). And for that whopping 70 spirit gain, I loose 4% on all my hots and on swiftmend (and of course double duty on efflorescence).
    1. I said 50 MPS. That would be the equivalent to 250 MP5.
    2. Genesis gives less than 2% per talent point because of additive stacking. Assuming 15% buff Harmony (a low estimate), you get at most ~1.21% per talent point for Rejuv, and ~1.43% per talent point for the other HoTs
    3. Efflorescence is not considered a HoT and does not benefit from Genesis, so it does not double-dip into Genesis.

    So all in all you get about ~2.5% more healing from HoTs with 2 points in Genesis. The 50 MPS you get from 2 points in Furor is on top of 1130 MPS for a ~390 iLevel and this includes all form of mana regen from Innervate, Int+Spi, Replenishment, Revitalize and Mana Spring Totem (or equivalents), representing a ~4.4% increase in mana regeneration.
    Last edited by tangedyn; 2012-01-01 at 11:47 AM.

  10. #1250
    Saying that healing spreadsheets are useless and furor is garbage talent is silly. Arguing about genesis vs furor is fine, but seems like midazolam preferes being rude and relegating others to the lol-pile rather than actually make arguments.

  11. #1251
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by midazolam View Post
    You really couldn't notice the sarcasm there? I was laying it on pretty thick... in one post he talks about how horrible this talent is, then links armories to show what good players do... and 2/3 have previously mentioned horrible talent...

    Really? You didn't pick up on the sarcasm?

    How much mana would you say Furor grants you over the course of a fight? Say a long fight, say 15 minutes.
    lol, you were just proving yourself wrong more than somehow proving him wrong.


    This statement is just silly. This is a basic how-to guide (A good one, I might add). This is the kind of thing a new player will be reading, not just those working on hard modes... in fact, I would bet that more new players read guides like this, as more experienced ones already know how they like to do things.
    The actual guide completely explains when or when not to use botg, furor, LS, NS, MG, Gen, any of the random talents. Pretty much no one outside low end regs should be using 8/0/33. It's just not really viable this tier, which was the point. LS's healing may outdo what BotG will do in pretty much any DS fight, but not the extra RJs, WGs, RGs, or anything else you can throw out with furor/MG.


    Again like I said, you are arguing with mathematical evidence not taken from theory, but when analyzing actual numbers verse
    Now... I aint no math-a-magician but that don't sound too great to me.
    It doesn't sound good, doesn't mean it's not. BotG sounds great when it's utter shit.

    People who shit on spreadsheets are those who don't understand them or the math proves them wrong and they don't like it. There are a few instances when spreadsheets can't predict everything that happens in a fight, they are still useful, but shouldn't be taken as 100% fact. This is not one of those cases. This is not guessing what happens over a fight, this is actually looking at logs from a fight and seeing it's the case.

    When everyone disagrees with you there is a reason. But since you have gone towards insulting everyone I guess you are finally seeing why. Please don't try and give advice on my guide that's incorrect if you are just going to say 'spreadsheets are shit'. All the the info you think is good has been proven by spreadsheets... I understand WoW math is frustrating because like I said, most of it doesn't make sense. But if somethings been proven by multiple theorcrafters(and we druids have some of the most solid theorycrafters in the game) it's probably time to trust it and assume what we assume without math but just feeling may not be correct.

    I used to fight spreadsheets all the time, until I finally realized my ingame testing was pretty much on dot with their spreadsheet testing. And if it wasn't, I switched it up to theirs and ended up with more throughput, hps, stability, whatever it was about.

  12. #1252
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    Most restos haven't needed furor since T11 and have been speccing out of moonglow since early T12. I ran with 1-2 points in moonglow long before having 2PC T12
    I'm clearly not one of them. I can recall only Sinestra being the encounter I specced out of Furor, but that was because of the gimmick p3.

    Those so-called 'throughput specs' actually provide you less throughput than so-called 'regen specs'. It's suspicious that some people here care so little about their mana, that they decide not only to spec out of Furor, but also out of Moonglow. Even on short encounters like FL ones, I find myself strained on mana. The only explanation to your 'no mana issues' will be running a comp with too many healers or simply you playing bad.

    As to BotG vs LS debate, I think that you are missing on Perseverance and Nature's Swiftness there. It really should look like BotG vs LS vs Pers vs NS. I find both BotG and LS pretty subpar talents. Also, I don't like generalisations in talent specs. One should make a spec for each serious or semi-serious encounter he is doing. Cookie-cutter specs might be good on one encounter and absolutely terrible on another one.

    1. Living Seed.
    At the moment there isn't a single encounter in t12 and t13 where druid is doing any worthwhile tank healing or your tank healing will matter on tank survivability in the slightest, unless you are doing some weird tactic or you are solohealing one of the tanks on Alysrazor. Most tank deaths happen in less than 1 second window. You won't even be able to react to majority of these cases. Tanks either don't get sufficient damage for them to die ever or die from someone's screw-up on cooldowning hard-hittting ability. Living Seed is not a helper here, just meter-padding tool via stealing heals from pre-assigned tank healer.
    2. Blessing of the Grove.
    It just provides terrible increase. Try speccing in and out of it for the same boss multiple times. You will be surprised how it affects your total hps. It's even worse, that what spreadsheet is showing, because of overhealing you occasionaly get here and there.
    3. Nature's Swiftness.
    This one is really situational (at least for me). I decide to not spec into it, because I rarely need that minor difference in heal landing compared to usual Regrowth for the cost of 1 talent point. So far I've found only 2 places for it to be really usefull: Yorsahj (well, maybe not anymore after the nerf) and Spine. On Yorsahj you basically get a free 50% increase for the same amount of stacks. On Spine it can be a life-saver to someone being affected by debuff+grip.
    4. Perseverance.
    Apart from the cases stated above, I prefer taking 2 points in this one. Additional survivability during progression on an encounter is just THAT awesome. I will most likely have 2 points in it even on farm.
    Tortie - Night Elf Druid - The Maelstrom EU

  13. #1253
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    I agree 100%

    Pers has always been pretty debated. On one hand, taking less dmg is always good. On the other, with the amount of cross aoe healing going out unless there is a fight where mechanics can take you close to death often(something like nef or chim aoe) it really doesn't end up helping a whole lot, just adding to overheal. Some fights it's pretty valuable, other not.

    But, it's the same way with LS/NS. Some fights, if you use NS and it saves lives, it's great. Some fights if you get a lot of CC, or you direct heal spam a lot for some reason, or in 10s in general, LS can be pretty powerful. Some fights it's almost completely worthless.

    When people are stuck progressing on any fight I always try and convince them to spec for that fight specifically. But in general, for people not stuck on a certain fight the healing from LS/NS outweighs the dmg reduction from pers. It's a small amount of healing, but pers is just adding more overheal. Pers doesn't do enough to make it so someone isn't going to cast a heal on you if you take dmg or change the choice of that heal to save mana. So if choosing your spec on the best for the majority of fights, pers would probably fall behind LS.

  14. #1254
    I remember someone did the math a while back and found that you gain a net healing increase by speccing into furor and reforging out of spirit. Your only real viable option for dropping furor is genesis, and you gain more throughput by dropping whatever amount of spirit furor would equate to and reforging it to throughput stats compared to what you would get for genesis.

    In other words, not getting furor is almost always a bad idea unless you have already dropped all of the spirit you possibly can and still have "too much regen." And I really can't imagine what content you are doing if you are in that sort of a situation. Anyone that claims that healers don't worry about mana anymore (and I still see a lot of people trying to say this) obviously aren't doing heroics, so their point is useless.

    The only fight I dropped furor in is hm ultraxion, and that is only because the last 30 seconds is so awful on healing I needed every bit I could squeeze. And yes, that even means picking up BotG too. While this resulted in lower overall numbers since I had to be more conservative for the earlier part of the fight and rely more on the paladin, the net result was that I got more output when the fight really required it.

    Basically my point is furor is one of the last places you want to look when dropping regen because it has a lower marginal cost of throughput than spirit or genesis (or any talent you could get in the resto tree for that matter).

    Making any blanket statement about how x talent is better than y is really just simplifying something that isn't so simple. Your better off just knowing the true value of your talents and picking what is appropriate for the fight your working on.

  15. #1255
    Mechagnome SkyBlueAri's Avatar
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    I think Pers is one of the last places you want to look for spec improvements as a resto druid. Pers doesnt stop people from needing to cast a heal on you as frequently as it needs to to be a viable spec choice.

    As for the rest, I think you guys are overthinking it a little bit. If your struggling on a fight its probably not because your spec is wrong for the fight, sure a slight change may increase the ease of the fight marginally, but in DS it really does seem that execution is supreme to any amount of throughput min/maxing that would come from a spec change. Obvisouly for most fights check your spec / strat and see if there are any derp talents you've chosen / havent chosen and fix them.

    Im still seeing no point to spec into LS, Pers, more Furor then 1, not speccing into NS. Gens is still one of the best talents for DS. No doubt about that. Now im still only almost full 391 gear with maybe 5 pieces of 397 (not including heroic rag gear which for me is only staff). No two set and I seem to be doing well at 5/8h. We havent really put much progression into boatship since we hav only had 2 raid nights a week since holidays n stuffs. Just use ur brain wen speccing, if something is not going well and the problem isnt execution (9/10 it will be though) then look into your spec. But even then, most of the time, if you change your spec for a fight it will be like speccing into Pers: Sure it will help, but it wont help enough to fix certain issues.

    Ofc there is that other RNG issue we all hav to deal with that may effect the outcome of a fight - other players.
    Last edited by SkyBlueAri; 2012-01-02 at 01:47 PM.
    "There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs." - George R.R. Martin, A Storm of Swords

  16. #1256
    Quote Originally Posted by cleotaurus View Post
    I remember someone did the math a while back and found that you gain a net healing increase by speccing into furor and reforging out of spirit. Your only real viable option for dropping furor is genesis, and you gain more throughput by dropping whatever amount of spirit furor would equate to and reforging it to throughput stats compared to what you would get for genesis.
    I think Hamlet worked it out before, but I can derive the same result using my spreadsheet. Currently it's set to the profile of a iLevel 394 Resto Druid who has done 2/8 HM and is probably working on HM Yor'sahj hence the 10 min duration, and these are the IEP Values for the relevant stats and talents for Duration/Raid model and Burst/Raid model.

    Duration/Raid Sustainable HPS Model:
    Spirit = .4624, Mastery = .4322, Furor = 118.9986, Genesis = 100.2056

    Burst/Raid Burst HPS Modle:
    Sprit = 0, Mastery = .6538, Furor = 0, Genesis = 161.3896

    So switching from Furor to Genesis is a BHPS gain equivalent to 2 * 161.3896 = 322.7792 IEP. To gain the same amount of BHPS by reforging Spirit to Mastery, you need to reforge 322.7792 / .6538 = 493.70 Spirit to Mastery

    By reforging 493.70 Spirit to Mastery, you lose 246.85 * (.4624 - .4322) = 14.91 IEP worth of SHPS
    By switching 2 talent points from Furor to Genesis, you lose 2 * (118.9986 - 100.2056) = 37.586 IEP worth of SHPS

    TLDR: if you need more burst HPS, get it by reforging Spirit to Mastery because switching from Furor to Genesis loses 2.52 times more SHPS than switching spirit to mastery.

    The only fight I dropped furor in is hm ultraxion, and that is only because the last 30 seconds is so awful on healing I needed every bit I could squeeze. And yes, that even means picking up BotG too. While this resulted in lower overall numbers since I had to be more conservative for the earlier part of the fight and rely more on the paladin, the net result was that I got more output when the fight really required it.
    Changing the fight duration to 6 minutes makes Furor even stronger for SHPS because the ratio of starting mana to regenerated mana is larger. Meanwhile the SHPS IEP values of Mastery and Spirit are now almost equal, you don't lose any SHPS reforging all your Spirit to Mastery. I agree that it may be desirable to take BOTG and Genesis for this fight, but I think you should prioritize reforging for Mastery first before seeing if it is necessary to take those two talents.
    Last edited by tangedyn; 2012-01-02 at 04:39 PM.

  17. #1257
    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBlueAri View Post
    I think Pers is one of the last places you want to look for spec improvements as a resto druid. Pers doesnt stop people from needing to cast a heal on you as frequently as it needs to to be a viable spec choice.
    Perseverance can be those 2-3% damage that save you from death. There's quite a big difference between having 100 hp and 0 hp. Much more than 100 hp. I can tell you that I've survived on <500 hp on pre-nerf Yorsahj more than 10 times in one worth of attempts.
    As for the rest, I think you guys are overthinking it a little bit. If your struggling on a fight its probably not because your spec is wrong for the fight, sure a slight change may increase the ease of the fight marginally, but in DS it really does seem that execution is supreme to any amount of throughput min/maxing that would come from a spec change. Obvisouly for most fights check your spec / strat and see if there are any derp talents you've chosen / havent chosen and fix them.
    25 people making 0.5% difference in effectiveness in their specs is what makes it a kill instead of a wipe.

    The most notable wipes I had are Ascendant Council 40k hp wipe, Ultraxion 70k, Valiona 250k, Nefarian 400k and Yorsahj 300k. I don't want to be the reason we wipe like this, because I was too lazy to spend 66g on respec.
    Tortie - Night Elf Druid - The Maelstrom EU

  18. #1258
    Mechagnome SkyBlueAri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torty View Post
    Perseverance can be those 2-3% damage that save you from death. There's quite a big difference between having 100 hp and 0 hp. Much more than 100 hp. I can tell you that I've survived on <500 hp on pre-nerf Yorsahj more than 10 times in one worth of attempts.
    The fights arent designed for you to be cutting it that close. There is obviously an issue with your execution if you are going as low as 500 hp for a fight like that. Even on heroic your throughput as a druid outweighs the small % of damage reduc that pers would giv u. Even without pers u would still require a heal with your health at that low percentage. It is more likely that you can execute your strat better then hav to rely on that small % of damage reduc on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torty View Post
    The most notable wipes I had are Ascendant Council 40k hp wipe, Ultraxion 70k, Valiona 250k, Nefarian 400k and Yorsahj 300k. I don't want to be the reason we wipe like this, because I was too lazy to spend 66g on respec.
    And I hav to say your really getting my point wrong if you think its about being lazy or broke to respec. If your wiping at 70k for Ultratxion then your dps arent trying hard enough or your not healing well enough. For Ascendant Council your extra healing that you hav taken out of to put into Pers just lost you that amount of healing over the raid that would hav gotten you the kill. For Valiona im just going to lol at because that fight done correctly was just so easy even before it was nerfed. Nef is the same, all you need is for your healers / tanks / dps to be playing properly and for you to execute your strat in order for a kill. Your less then a % spell damage reduc did not wipe you or prevent you from killing boss with less then 500k health.

    There are plenty of ways you can avoid dying if its getting cut that close just dont be derp.

    Also speccing into Pers is like taking one step forward and two and a half steps bak, its not worth it 99% of the time.
    Last edited by SkyBlueAri; 2012-01-03 at 03:03 AM.
    "There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs." - George R.R. Martin, A Storm of Swords

  19. #1259
    One fight that you might consider speccing into perseverance is hm warmaster. With barkskin only its pretty much a gamble whether or not you can soak the swirly solo, however the talent gives you that wiggle room to do it with relative safety.

    Perseverance is a utility talent. If you look at it from a pure numbers perspective, yes the damage mitigated is far worse than the damage you could heal if you had other talents, but its usefulness comes from having it when its needed, and winning the fight because its there. Its like not picking up the dispel talent just because you have other healers that can dispel. I think a lot of people in this thread are too focused on the numbers and are looking at the healer role too much like they view a dps role. Evaluating talents such as living seed, perserverence, natures bounty, etc in purely hps terms are evaluating them in a vacuum which really has no merit in the thick of things. This is why many druids are sticking with 4t12 for so long because the double swiftmend is such a valuable tool its really hard to give up even if mathmatically some x amount of intellect gain is a more "overall benefit."

    As far as the viability of pers on ultraxion, I would say a spec like http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0hfbZZrfdhd0ru0uo would be optimal for the fight, as long as you can effectively manage your mana so that you have enough. This spec will provide you the strongest firepower for the last minute of the fight which is the hardest for healers, especially if your doing 10 man where the enrage is generally before people die rather than before the boss enrages.
    Last edited by cleotaurus; 2012-01-03 at 11:24 AM.

  20. #1260
    Mechagnome SkyBlueAri's Avatar
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    I dont think hm warmaster is viable tbh. Druids arent the only ones who can soak. Im in a 10m guild and we hav plenty of people who can soak solo or with a partner very easily. I dont consider Pers even remotely viable for hm Warmaster since your throughput overall is largely supreme to being able to soak a couple swirlies.

    Ive never had it in all of Cataclysm and Ive killed every progression fight prenerf as Resto bar Sinestra / Warmaster / Spine / Madness.
    Last edited by SkyBlueAri; 2012-01-03 at 02:08 PM.
    "There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs." - George R.R. Martin, A Storm of Swords

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