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  1. #1261
    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBlueAri View Post
    The fights arent designed for you to be cutting it that close. There is obviously an issue with your execution if you are going as low as 500 hp for a fight like that. Even on heroic your throughput as a druid outweighs the small % of damage reduc that pers would giv u. Even without pers u would still require a heal with your health at that low percentage. It is more likely that you can execute your strat better then hav to rely on that small % of damage reduc on you.
    Yes, these fights are designed to be that close. I had to do 1 mil+ dmg on first Ultraxion kills, I had to squeeze every little dps on pre-nerf Yorsahj as a healer too (I assume you didn't kill it pre-nerf, because everyone who did is now at 6/8 heroic).
    And I hav to say your really getting my point wrong if you think its about being lazy or broke to respec. If your wiping at 70k for Ultratxion then your dps arent trying hard enough or your not healing well enough. For Ascendant Council your extra healing that you hav taken out of to put into Pers just lost you that amount of healing over the raid that would hav gotten you the kill. For Valiona im just going to lol at because that fight done correctly was just so easy even before it was nerfed. Nef is the same, all you need is for your healers / tanks / dps to be playing properly and for you to execute your strat in order for a kill. Your less then a % spell damage reduc did not wipe you or prevent you from killing boss with less then 500k health.

    There are plenty of ways you can avoid dying if its getting cut that close just dont be derp.

    Also speccing into Pers is like taking one step forward and two and a half steps bak, its not worth it 99% of the time.
    You, sir, have clearly not done any of these fights when they were hard (e.g. when you had relatively bad gear). Saying 'the fight is easy because all you need is to play properly and execute the strat' without armory link just makes you look like a YT hero, nothing more, and also makes all your arguments to be something comming from a player who is used to outgear content or do it when tons of tactics are around.


    The poster above basically summed it up for me. You are looking too much at the numbers. When they might be good, sometimes they are not that one tool to evaluate a healer. How do you evaluate a dispel? Nature's Swiftness? You can't. Same deal with Perseverance. You prefer to take mediocre (at best) throughput talents over utility and back it up with numbers. How is that even working, please explain?
    Tortie - Night Elf Druid - The Maelstrom EU

  2. #1262
    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBlueAri View Post
    I dont think hm warmaster is viable tbh. Druids arent the only ones who can soak. Im in a 10m guild and we hav plenty of people who can soak solo or with a partner very easily. I dont consider Pers even remotely viable for hm Warmaster since your throughput overall is largely supreme to being able to soak a couple swirlies.

    Ive never had it in all of Cataclysm and Ive killed every progression fight prenerf as Resto bar Sinestra / Warmaster / Spine / Madness.
    If you make do without it more power to you then. However, blanket statements such as "its useless 99% of the time" because of your anecdotal experience is not a valid argument and does nothing to back up your point, nor does saying "someone else can do it" really support your argument either. Refusing to play a role that your spec allows makes you liability to your team, and when your talking about progression everyones contribution counts. Not every druid runs with a guild that has 9 players that can solo soak or a 24 players that trivializes the mechanic entirely. What if your team is melee heavy? What if your the only player around when one is incoming? "Well someone else should have been there" - these are the kinds of things that separate good players from great players. Being a great player is doing everything you can do succeed in the fight rather than pigeonholing yourself into some narrowly defined role where you can only do one thing. I mean if you want to consider it in terms of numbers - think about how much dps your raid gains by not forcing someone else to have to move into a swirly because you can safely take it alone?

    I would argue that blackhorn is actually one of the fights that really doesn't demand extremely high healing and you can get away with taking utility talents like perseverance - and, unless every player on your team is a goblin priest with glyphed dispersion and rocket boots, your going to find that pers has a lot of usefulness for that fight.

  3. #1263

    furor vs moonglow question

    So I was looking at some of the top druids today and noticed that vodka's top resto druid is currently rolling with 3/3 furor and 2/3 moonglow. I know conventional wisdom is that moonglow is better for the vast majority of situations, with the exception of very short fights. Granted maybe their guild at the time was working on a shorter heroic fight.

    Since furor is based off of max mana, I'm also wondering if the int levels on gear for this tier are giving such high mana levels, that furor's value has increased. So maybe know instead of furor being better if fight is less than 4 minutes (or whatever the rule of thumb was), maybe all the extra int has furor better than moonglow now for fights less than 8 minutes (for example, have no clue of actual number).

    Is anyone aware of any testing on these two talents based on current gear levels. The sentiment still seems to favor moonglow, but I haven't seen any actual numbers of comparison based on current int levels. I'm sure for the much longer fights like madness that moonglow would still greatly outweigh furor, but who knows. eventually int levels could be so high that the extra regen from replenishment and innervate will outpace the mana savings from moonglow.

    Thanks in advance!

  4. #1264
    Quote Originally Posted by Druover View Post
    So I was looking at some of the top druids today and noticed that vodka's top resto druid is currently rolling with 3/3 furor and 2/3 moonglow. I know conventional wisdom is that moonglow is better for the vast majority of situations, with the exception of very short fights. Granted maybe their guild at the time was working on a shorter heroic fight.

    Since furor is based off of max mana, I'm also wondering if the int levels on gear for this tier are giving such high mana levels, that furor's value has increased. So maybe know instead of furor being better if fight is less than 4 minutes (or whatever the rule of thumb was), maybe all the extra int has furor better than moonglow now for fights less than 8 minutes (for example, have no clue of actual number).

    Is anyone aware of any testing on these two talents based on current gear levels. The sentiment still seems to favor moonglow, but I haven't seen any actual numbers of comparison based on current int levels. I'm sure for the much longer fights like madness that moonglow would still greatly outweigh furor, but who knows. eventually int levels could be so high that the extra regen from replenishment and innervate will outpace the mana savings from moonglow.
    Because I'm no longer needed to have a resto OS for my raid, my resto spreadsheet default profile instead tracks a particular druid through her gear progression. I don't know her, but her profile was recommended to me by Lissanna, so every so often I update the spreadsheet as she updates her gear. I've noticed that the crossover point in encounter duration where Moonglow overtakes Furor in value can vary quite wildly, depending on Intellect and Spirit ratio, and bonuses like 2T12. At the start of Tier 11, most profiles would have the crossover point at 3 minutes, but at times I've seen it go as high as 7.5 minutes with profiles a few weeks back.

    So there really isn't any rule that works for everyone. My recommendation would be to use my spreadsheet, enter your stats, set Furor and Moonglow to 2, then look at the IEP values for Furor and Moonglow for the Duration/Raid (or Duration/MT if you are one of the rare resto MT healers). Mess around with the encounter duration to see how the IEP values are affected.

  5. #1265
    Quote Originally Posted by Druover View Post
    Since furor is based off of max mana, I'm also wondering if the int levels on gear for this tier are giving such high mana levels, that furor's value has increased. So maybe know instead of furor being better if fight is less than 4 minutes (or whatever the rule of thumb was), maybe all the extra int has furor better than moonglow now for fights less than 8 minutes (for example, have no clue of actual number).
    It all depends on how many spells you cast on average in a given time window. On a fight like ultraxion, moonglow may be superior if it takes you more than 4 minutes to kill a boss, whereas a fight like spine moonglow might only overtake furor by the 8 or 9 minute mark. I run with 3/3 furor and 2/3 moonglow because given my spellcasting tendencies, furor is better up until about the 7 minute mark, on average. Theres a lot of really awkward math behind it though, since the more spells you cast the more valuable moonglow becomes, and if you aren't casting enough spells then you don't need the mana anyways.

    The way I've been looking at it, assuming you are working on heroics, is anything under 6 minutes at a 395ish + gear level you are almost guaranteed to get more out of furor.

    Morchok doesn't take 6 minutes to kill, even with 4 healers.
    Yor'sahj gets iffy between the two, since you always have replenishment/revitalize ticking, but the fight can be close to 10 minutes depending on dps. I'd say furor is the winner here too, since healing is far from spammy to make moonglow better, but it could be debated.
    Zon'ozz enrages at 6, so furor.
    Hagara has an 8 minute enrage, but you don't really cast a bunch of heals during the ice phase, and the only part where healing is rough is lightning phase which goes super quick. Again, I'd vote furor, but debatable.
    Ultraxion - 6 minute enrage, but very spammy healing nature. Which one will benefit you more depends on your cohealer. If you are filling every gcd for the last 3 minutes of the fight, you'll definitely want moonglow.

    I haven't done warmaster/spine/madness on heroic, but I'd imagine the length of spine/madness put moonglow ahead. Warmaster would be debatable, but moonglow is probably the winner there too.

    10 man raider, not sure about numbers on 25's.
    Last edited by Catokot; 2012-01-08 at 02:26 AM.

  6. #1266
    Running 3/3 Furor 2/3 Moonglow in 25's.

    I've not done any maths, but for most fights I just prefer furor and the larger mana pools. I probably should swap into Genesis as I usually have 2 MTT's and 2 Hymns to play with, but meh if it isn't broken I don't worry too much about it. 6/8 25m HM's for fwiw.
    Gertrude of Aurora, possibly the best 3 day raiding guild in the world!

  7. #1267
    Stood in the Fire ODDLAWL's Avatar
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    I know this isn't a "fix my HPS" thread but I've been reading all the arguments and scuffles people get into in here and I'm still at a loss. I still don't understand how Furor is best to take over Genesis, when Genesis seems to me like its overall more hps. I also see a lot of end-game badasses speccing into Naturalist and I don't understand why, maybe its because I don't raid hard modes on my moderately well geared alt resto druid (I do on my Disc priest), but I had this generalized idea that if you're not specced into Naturalist "it's okay" because you're a "raid healer". I've also seen many arguments agains BotG, when again, it seems to me like it's just overall more hps. Maybe I also have the notion of a Resto Druid all wrong, but I don't see these kind of enigmas and questions when it comes to a Disc priest.

    I know many people will just say "it all depends on you and how you play" and while I do understand this completely, there must be a "recognized" widely used spec and MUST HAVE points (besides the obvious ones) that people tend to gravitate towards. Maybe I'm also trying too hard, just because in my head Resto Druids are just too OP (tranqqq).

    Is BotG bad? Should I spec out of it in my two resto specs? Is Furor really better in Dragon Soul this time around? Wouldn't it be an hps loss to find time to Nourish and HT people during an encounter if I spec into Naturalist? What do YOU do to keep Harmony up, because my uptime on that is so shit... Even with a Power Aura I still forget to refresh it. Sometimes I like to believe it's because I don't actively play a Resto Druid as my main, so it's not something that I innately know when to refresh.

    bold to accentuate the complete neutrality of my questions and assumptions, I'm not here to step on your main Resto toes.

  8. #1268
    How much base spirit is necessary?

  9. #1269
    Hello guys
    so yesterday I went raiding with my guild and we were running with 4 healers at Morchok (2 disc Priests a paladin and me)

    here are the logs from our kill

    and here is my armory

    any creative thoughts as to why I was last healing done -wise?
    I mean I thought that maybe the priest were pre-shielding for stomps so am I supposed to be pre rjing?Am I supposed to spam rejuvs on everyone?
    Also wg?Am I supposed to use it every cd because it seems like a waste to do so when everybody is full
    I would appreciate the advice
    thanks!


    PS:I just made some changes to my spec to try it out next time(Nature's Cure for warlord)

  10. #1270
    Quote Originally Posted by ODDLAWL View Post
    I know this isn't a "fix my HPS" thread but I've been reading all the arguments and scuffles people get into in here and I'm still at a loss. I still don't understand how Furor is best to take over Genesis, when Genesis seems to me like its overall more hps. I also see a lot of end-game badasses speccing into Naturalist and I don't understand why, maybe its because I don't raid hard modes on my moderately well geared alt resto druid (I do on my Disc priest), but I had this generalized idea that if you're not specced into Naturalist "it's okay" because you're a "raid healer". I've also seen many arguments agains BotG, when again, it seems to me like it's just overall more hps. Maybe I also have the notion of a Resto Druid all wrong, but I don't see these kind of enigmas and questions when it comes to a Disc priest.

    I know many people will just say "it all depends on you and how you play" and while I do understand this completely, there must be a "recognized" widely used spec and MUST HAVE points (besides the obvious ones) that people tend to gravitate towards. Maybe I'm also trying too hard, just because in my head Resto Druids are just too OP (tranqqq).

    Is BotG bad? Should I spec out of it in my two resto specs? Is Furor really better in Dragon Soul this time around? Wouldn't it be an hps loss to find time to Nourish and HT people during an encounter if I spec into Naturalist? What do YOU do to keep Harmony up, because my uptime on that is so shit... Even with a Power Aura I still forget to refresh it. Sometimes I like to believe it's because I don't actively play a Resto Druid as my main, so it's not something that I innately know when to refresh.

    bold to accentuate the complete neutrality of my questions and assumptions, I'm not here to step on your main Resto toes.
    I'll do my best to answer so you get a quick answer, and then the real experts can correct/fill in what I've missed.

    furor/genesis. The overall theory is that furor is mana and genesis throughput obviously. So there is an amount of spirit that would be equivalent to the mana this is gained from furor. If you respec this same amount of spirit into mastery, the throughput gains from the extra mastery will outweigh the throughput gains from genesis. So genesis is obviously better throughput than furor on its own, but if you assume you need a set amount of mana regen, it will be better throughput to get that regen from furor (and then having more mastery) instead of from spirit (and having genesis). Because of the very high int levels this tier, the furor dynamics are better, and therefore, you can reforge even more spirit off because of furor than you could at earlier tiers (strictly speaking from a furor equivalence point of view). off topic, but Tang even said he's seen his spreadsheet show situations where furor can be better for regen than moonglow on fights up to 8 min. (not advocating making this switch...just saying)

    I'm not really going to attempt to answer your question about naturalist. I have it, but i raid 10 mans and cast HT on tank alot if WG and swiftmend are on CD and theres no raid damage. If you dont use those spells, then naturalist wouldn't be the best, but the other options on those talent tiers aren't that great either.

    Botg is additive, not multiplicative, so it doesn't end up truly being the hps increase it states. Again, I'll let the board experts answer in more detail, but the spreadsheets tang created shows that other talents outweigh it. I'm under the impression that living seed and botg are both not the best, and different situations/group sizes make one slightly edge out the other.

    Harmony uptime: this goes to your point about naturalist talent as well. With the talented crit increase, regrowth is almost as much pure healing as healing touch, and much better hps. so I've seen some saying they basically always regrowth instead of healing touch. however, regrowth also is the only control of your very powerful naturee's grace haste buff. Because I like to control when I get this buff, I use healing touch for ooc procs and to keep harmony up, allowing me to regrowth right before an intensive healing phase for the extra ticks on the hots from natures grace. So I get alot more out of the HT/nourish cast time reduction than i would the other talents available at those talent tiers.

    Hope this helps, and again, I've sure others will elaborate more!!

  11. #1271
    Quote Originally Posted by Sultrees View Post
    How much base spirit is necessary?
    Unable to really answer without knowledge of your playstyle, raid makeup, what level you are raiding at, and a myriad of other factors. The general rule of thumb is to have enough that you can last through the most mana intensive encounter you raid.

  12. #1272
    Quote Originally Posted by alex2395 View Post
    Hello guys
    so yesterday I went raiding with my guild and we were running with 4 healers at Morchok (2 disc Priests a paladin and me)

    here are the logs from our kill

    and here is my armory

    any creative thoughts as to why I was last healing done -wise?
    I mean I thought that maybe the priest were pre-shielding for stomps so am I supposed to be pre rjing?Am I supposed to spam rejuvs on everyone?
    Also wg?Am I supposed to use it every cd because it seems like a waste to do so when everybody is full
    I would appreciate the advice
    thanks!
    I can give you some advice here. Comparing to our kill yesterday, a few things in your playstyle can be improved.
    First, yes you should definitely pre-rj your whole group. Basically, from the first stomp on in each phase, everyone should always have your rj up. There are only 5 peolpe so that's not problem to maintain. Second, you need to use Swiftmend more. After each stomp (or then as soon as it's ready), use SM. You have 4pT12, so that's healing doubled, and you proc Efflo which is strong in this fight. And last, your harmony uptime looks a bit low (possibly due to too little SM usage).

    Also, your gearing/spec is off. You have no mana regen talents, but more than 3000 spirit. Sorry, this is wrong. You would get a lot more throughput AND regen by speccing into Moonglow and Furor, and then reforging spirit to < 2000. You can read more TC on that on EJ: http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/1152-h...oices_healers/

  13. #1273
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    I can give you some advice here. Comparing to our kill yesterday, a few things in your playstyle can be improved.
    First, yes you should definitely pre-rj your whole group. Basically, from the first stomp on in each phase, everyone should always have your rj up. There are only 5 peolpe so that's not problem to maintain. Second, you need to use Swiftmend more. After each stomp (or then as soon as it's ready), use SM. You have 4pT12, so that's healing doubled, and you proc Efflo which is strong in this fight. And last, your harmony uptime looks a bit low (possibly due to too little SM usage).

    Also, your gearing/spec is off. You have no mana regen talents, but more than 3000 spirit. Sorry, this is wrong. You would get a lot more throughput AND regen by speccing into Moonglow and Furor, and then reforging spirit to < 2000. You can read more TC on that on EJ: http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/1152-h...oices_healers/

    yes so more rj usage obviously...and I used sm with the first stomp and then tried to time it with stomps that are close to the crystal exploding (when people are stacked)...

    ok So gear
    so with these talents that I have should I reforge out of spirit???
    so in general if I go with this throughput talent build do I reforge all my spirit away?
    and if I take mana regen talents should I keep my reforges as they are?

    thanks I appreciate it!

  14. #1274
    Quote Originally Posted by alex2395 View Post
    ok So gear
    so with these talents that I have should I reforge out of spirit???
    so in general if I go with this throughput talent build do I reforge all my spirit away?
    and if I take mana regen talents should I keep my reforges as they are?
    No, you should adjust both gear and talent build, as they need to work together. Currently you have no mana regen talents but a lot of spirit. That's not a bad idea, but TC shows that the other way is better as it gives more throughput as well as more mana regen. So you should adjust your spec to include Moonglow and Furor, and then reforge spirit to mastery. To what extend really depends on how much regen you need, usually 2000 should be enough but that depends on play style and trinkets.

  15. #1275
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    No, you should adjust both gear and talent build, as they need to work together. Currently you have no mana regen talents but a lot of spirit. That's not a bad idea, but TC shows that the other way is better as it gives more throughput as well as more mana regen. So you should adjust your spec to include Moonglow and Furor, and then reforge spirit to mastery. To what extend really depends on how much regen you need, usually 2000 should be enough but that depends on play style and trinkets.

    ok so I'm just going to experiment a little bit with maybe some normal ds and try to find the perfect balance...
    I'll post my results and what works best for me :P

  16. #1276
    I'm wondering if the haste benefit to http://www.wowhead.com/item=77190/ti...-steps-of-time is more beneficial than the stats on http://www.wowhead.com/item=71797/sh...f-annihilation

    I've pondered over this for a while, but I just can't seem to wrap my brain around losing 357 mastery + 150 crit + 99 haste for 160 spell power, 48 int, and a chance for lots and lots of haste to me + 3 allies.

    I've seen EJ's list http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t127489-...n_dragon_soul/ on weapons and this is apparently BIS for a resto druid, but I was wondering about all of your thoughts.

    Edit - It should probably be noted that I am in fact running 10 man ATM, despite what my signature states.
    Last edited by Jumpieboi; 2012-01-24 at 03:07 PM.

  17. #1277
    Haste is the worst stat for resto druids outside of a breakpoint. Even then, a proc related breakpoint is very, very weak. You're better off getting your hand on the warmaster blackhorn staff, or the actual healer weapon from deathwing .

  18. #1278
    The thread you linked is not a BiS gear list for druids:
    As a forum we will not be doing a formalized BiS list.
    It's nothing more than a list of the gear available to druids within the current tier.

    The poster above me is spot on, the staff from Blackhorn or the Maw from Deathwing (LFR and above) are better choices. If you have a somewhat respectable OH the scalpel (wowhead.com/item=77219) from Yor'sahj is also another strong choice.

  19. #1279
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Haste is the worst stat for resto druids outside of a breakpoint. Even then, a proc related breakpoint is very, very weak. You're better off getting your hand on the warmaster blackhorn staff, or the actual healer weapon from deathwing .
    haste is not a waste outside the 2005 breakpoint..each haste limit reach is extra ticks in wg or rej or tranq or lb...so unless you having mana issues having more than 2005 is not bad. It also lower casting time (better hps) etc..

    Maw is a great weapon and i feel sorry i havent start using it before... because of lack of a stat.

  20. #1280
    Quote Originally Posted by apostoloss View Post
    haste is not a waste outside the 2005 breakpoint..each haste limit reach is extra ticks in wg or rej or tranq or lb...so unless you having mana issues having more than 2005 is not bad. It also lower casting time (better hps) etc..

    Maw is a great weapon and i feel sorry i havent start using it before... because of lack of a stat.
    I never said it was a waste. I said it was the *worst* stat we could ever stack outside of a breakpoint. Mastery and Crit are both worth more if you are not reaching a breakpoint. Along with that, any proc related breakpoints will be quite bad, as there is a low uptime, and WG/swiftmend both have cooldowns, meaning you will only get to use them a few times. It can also proc when the haste is entirely wasted due to downtime in the encounter, making it even worse.

    And for those doubting how good the mace actually is, I was healing heroic ultrax in our alt 10 man tonight, where it did 1.3M healing, 6% of my overall healing, and that will be significantly higher in 25 man due to more targets (log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ne/?s=76&e=404 )

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