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  1. #1481
    Someone's got anger issues. Did you count in your shroom math 4 globals per bloom? Somehow I doubt shrooms are doing 136k healing per bloom.

    SotF will gain strength as our gear gets to the point where the regen aspect of ToL is less important, however ToL can be simply used as a 15% cd continuing to cast whatever you want, ignoring the ability to mass lifebloom and instant regrowth. Since it is a % it will also scale well with our improved gear. I don't think SotF will ever catch up. You actually get more and stronger ticks of wild growth by going to ToL when you need burst (Feng, Elegon p3, etc.).

  2. #1482
    Theorycrafters are those guys that do top end content and actually know the math behind their numbers. Anyone who tries and knock theorycrafters are people who think different based off their own failed theories in their raids that disagree what everyone else says, so they knock them.
    Name two. Or well, you can just skip this part and pretend it's not here like you did with mythical 'top druids saying' whatever you put in their mythical mouths.
    Play the way you want and fuck everyone that disagrees is a really poor way to play. Pretending that the way you do things is the best way for every raid to do things also shows you must be very new to top end raiding. Top end raiding means you play with a group of people who play as close to perfectly as possible. Everything changes when you play like this. Every single tier I've written this guide I've had to completely change how I wrote it because the way I did things was completely different to how normal progression players should be playing.
    Yeah, that's exactly what you are doing. I never said it's the 'best way'. I've just brought up a point and specifically said it's not usable outside certain type of very limited encounter types.


    You are pulling arrogant shit about being more experienced at least 3 times each post. I don't know what reaction you expect to get back, it's quite bad mannered to shove your superiority in someone's face. Is that how you usually handle discussions on forums? I'm not enjoying this conversation a tiny bit and will not until you drop this dad-to-son teaching manner of handling it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxvla View Post
    Someone's got anger issues. Did you count in your shroom math 4 globals per bloom? Somehow I doubt shrooms are doing 136k healing per bloom.
    Shrooms are 3 globals. Might use them at least once before posting about them. I've also posted how much healing my shrooms did and how much globals they take to bloom. You can also check the log, it's there. I'm not posting random numbers out of my head (HURR DURR SHROOMS ARE WORSE BY IDONTKNOWHOWMUCH), I'm getting it from live experience as strange as it might sound. You are free to correct me in my errors, if you find them. I'm a human and mistakes are common. If you don't want to correct them in the manner Myrrar is doing it, I'm open to discussions.
    You actually get more and stronger ticks of wild growth by going to ToL when you need burst (Feng, Elegon p3, etc.).
    SotF is bad on Feng and Elegon. I think I specifically mentioned what encounters SotF is usable on, but better post than read, right?

    Really feels like people are fighting a Strawman. SotF and shrooms are bad on some encounters, yes. On 5/6 using shrooms rotationally will lead to huge hps loss. On some of those, situational usage will give you better output (Spirit Kings cleave, Feng arcane aoe and epicenter). On WotE you can use SotF, because raid gets quite a lot of damage all the time from pull till kill. I've got better results as SotF which I posted about. There were NO statements that you should use shrooms 24/7 over SM and WG. There were NO statements that SotF is best talent ever in WoW. You are imagining things which are not there.
    Tortie - Night Elf Druid - The Maelstrom EU

  3. #1483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torty View Post
    Yeah, that's exactly what you are doing. I never said it's the 'best way'. I've just brought up a point and specifically said it's not usable outside certain type of very limited encounter types.


    You are pulling arrogant shit about being more experienced at least 3 times each post.
    Edit: Instead of biting back, I wont.


    Shrooms are useful in certain situations:
    Shrooms have their place as always
    We aren't talking about times you can exploit a spell to be overly amazing or fit into a needed niche. We are talking about on average, throughout a raid, they don't heal enough to stay a part of your normal rotation. Read EJ, official forums, druid blogs, feedback forums, almost everyone agrees. Blizzard agrees. They need to be buffed, they aren't strong enough right now.

    Soul:
    Huuuuge discussion about it on EJ. Go read through it. See people points about how Soul looks like it would be amazing, sounds like it's amazing, even during a raid it feels amazing, but how when you look at it as a whole it's just.....so unamazing. If you can still find an argument after all their points I'd be very interested to hear it, because I can't.

    Anyway, I'm going away for the weekend so won't be responding for a few days. Really though, reread through allll the posts and read it without assuming everyone is bitchy and out to attack you. =]

  4. #1484
    Quote Originally Posted by Torty View Post
    Shrooms are 3 globals. Might use them at least once before posting about them. I've also posted how much healing my shrooms did and how much globals they take to bloom. You can also check the log, it's there. I'm not posting random numbers out of my head (HURR DURR SHROOMS ARE WORSE BY IDONTKNOWHOWMUCH), I'm getting it from live experience as strange as it might sound. You are free to correct me in my errors, if you find them. I'm a human and mistakes are common. If you don't want to correct them in the manner Myrrar is doing it, I'm open to discussions.
    I have used shrooms. I had them keybound for quite a while until I found them useless. The problem is in the placement. They simply take too long to use regularly. Place them before a pull or during a phase transition, ok, but not while actively healing. You are right about them being 3 globals. I thought that you had to wait until the global was finished to cast bloom, but that it didn't start a global so you could cast something else right away meaning that it would be not quite 4 but more than 3 globals. I did as you said and tested this and found you could bloom while in a global, so that is nice. The placement problem will likely still keep them off my bar. They need to be off global so you can cast all 3 bam bam bam. What I run into is I'll place the first then miss the timing to place the second or third and then I'm off and getting distracted by that instead of focusing on my raid frames and hot timers. The other placement problem is that they are very difficult to see. In high spell activity areas you can only look at your user frame to know if they actually planted or not. So I'm moving my cursor one place and looking another place while I should be looking at raid frames and making sure I'm not standing in fire. Perhaps you are better than I but looking 4 places at once is more than I want to deal with.

    As for the healing I don't feel like looking through your log since you raid on a different size than I do (10 man). Testing in town with about 10 people nearby I get a value of about 5,000 per person per bloom so 15k per person, on 10 man stacked that's 150k. So yes the value is there, though each person's gain is really very small, hardly noticeable, even, in a raid situation, considering most people have 360-500k hp. While I do realize the value of 150k for 6120 mana, on a separate timer from wild growth and tranq. It's hard to get excited about healing each person for 3% of their life during intense AOE, when a monk dishes out aoe heals with no cooldown that are significantly higher. I'm getting a little off topic... 3 globals, position requirement, mana cost, attention division... all for a 3-5% heal that even has a cooldown.


    SotF is bad on Feng and Elegon. I think I specifically mentioned what encounters SotF is usable on, but better post than read, right?

    Really feels like people are fighting a Strawman. SotF and shrooms are bad on some encounters, yes. On 5/6 using shrooms rotationally will lead to huge hps loss. On some of those, situational usage will give you better output (Spirit Kings cleave, Feng arcane aoe and epicenter). On WotE you can use SotF, because raid gets quite a lot of damage all the time from pull till kill. I've got better results as SotF which I posted about. There were NO statements that you should use shrooms 24/7 over SM and WG. There were NO statements that SotF is best talent ever in WoW. You are imagining things which are not there.
    SotF is ideal for Feng and Elegon p3. Grouped up, you'll be using efflorescence for the group healing already, then drop a hastened wild growth. There is no better place to use SotF. WotE is almost entirely tank damage except for gas. We rotate healing cooldowns to get through those because there is no other time in the fight that they are needed. No reason to use SotF when the healing cooldowns already more than cover gas damage. I didn't say you said shrooms were #1 priority, not sure why you felt the need to clarify that.

    I started out using SotF because I went full spirit and couldn't figure out why I couldn't respond to aoe damage. SotF was a crutch that helped my spirit build be better. When I finally realized full spirit was retarded, I went full int and ToL and my play has gone up drastically. Our first night in MV the shaman in my group was 20-40% ahead of me. By our third night I had made the switch to full int and was neck and neck, and also having very few mana problems. Now I'm still neck and neck and sometimes ahead while still having no mana issues when the fight is being done properly. I'm still really worried about druid right now and my monk is 84 so we'll see what happens. The druid toolbox just isn't made for these raids. It's made for WotLK type healing where mana isn't an issue. On Stone Guard heroic where mana really isn't an issue, I blow away our other healers because I can afford to use a LOT of rejuvenation, the way druid is currently designed to heal. On other fights where I have to carefully measure each mana use, I'm merely as good as the rest, but lacking in burst potential. The way druids counter burst is pre-blanketing so that as many hots as possible are ticking when the burst hits. This is currently impossible on fights we have no supplement to our mana regen. Pre-blanket with single hots, then when the aoe hits, wild growth.

    I will keep an open mind about shrooms as the numbers do prove their worth, but using them while in the fray is still not an option for me. Pre-fight and phase transitions only. I'll think about getting them keybound again.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-19 at 10:37 PM ----------

    An interesting point about SotF, btw. I did a little testing, and while it may be wrong (feel free to correct), I found rejuvenation to be almost as good as wild growth for a target spell for SotF. The difference in my testing (a week or two ago, so a bit foggy) was ~35k (rejuv) to ~40k (wild growth). Sure one is single target the other is 6 targets, but the extra ticks from rejuv are very strong. With current standard of 3043 haste you get 4 extra ticks on wild growth per person for an average of around 1400-1500 per tick (some higher some lower) and 3 extra ticks on rejuvenation which for me is about 12,000 per tick.

    Handy item to keep in your pocket if you are ever assigned to tank healing. Swiftmend your regrowth, then use a SotF rejuvenation for 'burst' hot healing all while efflorescence and lifebloom are also ticking. It's pretty powerful.

  5. #1485
    maxvla i cant agree more with your post. I find the whole placement of shrooms problematic you mentioned few things and i will also add a silly thing but after you place 3 how do you get rid of the triangle in the screen if you dont want to make them bloom? not the best thing to do in an intense fight. Torty or tortie from scrumbusters is a good druid and perhaps one of the few that use his class to the full but how many resto druids can do that? I started with sotf since it was introduced then got nature vigil so i can have a burst raid cd since i did't take incarnation. Right now after being in the same spot as maxvla (rshamans with better gear be ahead by 20%-30%) i am slowly changing and even considering incarnation (already went for heart for extra damage and the passive intellect ).
    Torty i notice you have the healing touch glyph do you mind me asking why since you hardly use healing touch? do you want to test something even without the tier bonus ? I also notice you have 2602 haste and dont understand why.

    I am also very worried about rdruids in this expansion since i find strange that other classes i used to be in front in previous tier are now easily at same place with me or ahead by far sometimes (my gear is not good and still trying to get items but this cant be an excuse for the huge change especially in comparison with rshaman healing)

    .

  6. #1486
    You can right click to get rid of the target I believe. I do that when rejuv/sm fails and gives me the blue hand of death.

  7. #1487
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxvla View Post
    WotE is almost entirely tank damage except for gas. We rotate healing cooldowns to get through those because there is no other time in the fight that they are needed. No reason to use SotF when the healing cooldowns already more than cover gas damage. I didn't say you said shrooms were #1 priority, not sure why you felt the need to clarify that.
    He's talking about Heroic. Titan Gas is present for the entire fight from what I can see in videos. A stronger Wild Growth sounds incredibly useful in such a scenario, especially if you can leave the tanks entirely to someone else, barring LB refresh.

    As for shrooms, note that WotE HC is an incredibly long fight (12 to 15 minutes on an average) with what seems like constant but slow raid damage of 15k per second from what I can see in the Dungeon Journal (17k in 25m). You don't need extreme throughput to deal with this but you do need efficient mana usage to last the entire fight.

    I haven't done the fight personally and what I wrote is based on what I can deduce from videos and the Dungeon Journal, so take it with a pinch of salt. However, I do see his reasoning behind SotF and shrooms on that fight, especially in 25 man.
    Last edited by Ashrr; 2012-10-20 at 10:55 AM.
    Ashr

  8. #1488
    Ah, I haven't gotten to heroic WotE. Our tanks have really screwed us for progression this time. Spent hours and hours on stone guard and feng (normal even) with them utterly failing at the mechanics. Only 1/6 heroic currently with some time on Feng heroic, but with a 2 day raid schedule we're already done for the week.

  9. #1489
    If you right click (which i tried) you move your character also :P and it messing my movement . I am curious did you honestly see a difference healing with shamans when you change your talents or it was that you got better gear and stack e.g. intellect + mastery.

    I am trying to balance my stats and have notice abit of an improvement but i think it was the gear that was mainly causing the huge gap with rshamans. Also besides logs are you using skada or recount in fights? I notice a very strange thing in skada when fights finish. While lets say i am tie in healing (and hps) with rshamans when we kill the boss i sudderly drop 4 to 5k hps while rshaman healing stays the same. I am going crazy because i dont understand why this is happening. Skada is closer to world of logs (or same) so i wonder how our healing and hps is being recorded , why am i dropping when fights ends while all other classes numbers stay untouched. I also notice that major hps increase comes when i try to blanket the raid with rejuvs (which is hard due to my low ilvl gear) even traquility is not affecting numbers that much. Anyone else notice what i describe above?

  10. #1490
    Its some of both I would say. My spirit is lower now that when I was max spirit build with much worse gear, so it isn't that I'm casting more now. I use recount and we don't log our fights. I haven't noticed any problems.

  11. #1491
    Some serious rage up in here! Anyway, thought I would weigh in...

    SOTF: I love it and I hate it. A good druid can make it work for them, with tweaks like using the PVP set and/or eventually the tier set, the overlap on the cd's becomes much more manageable. But even with the PVP set, the timing will be thrown off at times, and you will be dealing with the awkward choice of waiting for a CD to come up. I have used SOTF extensively throughout beta and live. It creates a situation where either you start forcing SM/WG, or ignoring other heals for brief periods. I think people have actually explained it pretty well here, in a pure raid healing role where you can just sit back and mostly worry about managing SOTF for a purely WG-centric use, it might be a gain (though I argue it's not a particularly useful gain) on some of the fights.

    Overall I find it clunky, and while I might admit it lead to an overall increase in HPS on some fights, I found I was a worse healer due to it in terms of my focus on tank healing, use of direct heals, and my timing of SM/WG to mechanics. I stopped using SM as a triage heal, it became only a WG setup and general aoe; instead of WG being used slightly off cd to be timed to mechanics, it was only a general AOE heal for constant damage mechanics. Doing otherwise just made an already clunky cd rotation even worse..

    Also, just increasing WG output is not exactly the most life saving of heals anyway... it looks good on a meter, but it is not going to save that voodoo doll or player with jasper chains, it's not going to keep the tank up, and its not exactly going to fill a roll that other healers frankly can do better (shamans HR and Monks SCK etc..). There are so many forms of AOE healing, there comes a point where one healer increasing theirs is just reducing the others efficiency.

    So at the end of the day (and my testing) I just found it to be more of a distraction, and a selfish one to boot.. When I stopped using SOTF I felt... free. On the flip side ToL is a flexible, comfortable, and solid choice for almost any fight.

    Wild Mushrooms: We could all use them better on certain fights. Simple as that. Overall I am just pissed at Blizzard for making a spell so MEH, and ultimately inconsequential....

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-21 at 05:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxvla View Post
    Handy item to keep in your pocket if you are ever assigned to tank healing. Swiftmend your regrowth, then use a SotF rejuvenation for 'burst' hot healing all while efflorescence and lifebloom are also ticking. It's pretty powerful.
    Yes it is, I have used it this way a bunch too. And honestly it is the only way I would use SOTF at this point, because you are free to use it in a number of ways to tank heal. Using it on a full stack of LB is an even bigger increase, but you would not be able to refresh with direct heals. But then you could use the bloom glyph.. I never got that far though. You can also use a hasted HT etc.. This is all stuff that is really effective for PVP but can be crossed over to a primary tank healing role if you are in that position.
    Last edited by Sprucelee; 2012-10-21 at 05:57 PM.
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  12. #1492
    Well the only way to make swiftmends shorter is with healing touch glyph and assumin you use healing touch else you still need to time your swiftmend for your sotf and rejuv can you really afford to do that while a tank is getting alot of damage? I also think that while i also claimed sotf does't allow much freedom i was wrong . Its how you handle your wild growths (glyph or unglyphed) . If you have it glyphed you can do swiftmend->wild growth with sotf- wild growth without sotf-swiftmend again-wild growth with sotf it fits exactly in rotation (unless there is server lag and spell does't get the sotf effect that expires when you click wild growth). Of course this is making you oom faster but you can also fill in time with use of mushrooms (25man) . I actually got my best burst hps in trash today when i cast wild growth with sotf-following by mushroom bloom+traq . So its all how you combine them in fights . On the other hand i also agree that mushrooms need some buff or some attention.

  13. #1493
    4 piece Tier and 2 or 4 piece PVP set both reduce SM cooldown. T14 4 piece is 12 seconds. With our current haste, rejuvenation is just under 12 seconds in length.

  14. #1494
    Quote Originally Posted by Myrrar View Post
    Soul:
    Huuuuge discussion about it on EJ. Go read through it. See people points about how Soul looks like it would be amazing, sounds like it's amazing, even during a raid it feels amazing, but how when you look at it as a whole it's just.....so unamazing. If you can still find an argument after all their points I'd be very interested to hear it, because I can't.

    Anyway, I'm going away for the weekend so won't be responding for a few days. Really though, reread through allll the posts and read it without assuming everyone is bitchy and out to attack you. =]
    There isn't really huge discussion going on there, only a couple of pages. I've read it all. There are Hamlet posts of his LFR experience and SotF being bad there (quite hilarious, because I'm topping LFR meters on my disc priest only using Holy Fire, Smite and Penance). I honestly don't have a single fucking clue how you can test something in LFR, correct me if I'm wrong here. There are also posts from some guy Payday who has absolutely retarded math about SotF hasted WG, because he doesn't know how it scales with WG. Really, looking in your combat log will tell you everything, but apparently too hard for him, so he posts random numbers that have nothing to do with reality. And those are the smartest posts about the matter, which makes me sad about human kind.

    I'm not sure how these people are allowed to post on EJ, back in the day they would've been all banned for useless shit they post. Especially that guy with random moon math that can't even look in his own combat log and after playing druid for years doesn't know how additional WG ticks affect its healing. My alt priest with less than 2 days /played on lvl90 already has higher progress than 99% of that thread and another 1% has the same progress. Call me elitist (see what I did here?), but inability to play your class properly or no indication of that you can play your class better than an average LFR hero adds a huge pile of salt to their conclusions. I have a bunch of druids from top5-40 guilds in my bnet friend list reporting differently about SotF and I can take their criticism, but not from players that didn't even step into normal modes, sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by apostoloss View Post
    Torty i notice you have the healing touch glyph do you mind me asking why since you hardly use healing touch? do you want to test something even without the tier bonus ? I also notice you have 2602 haste and dont understand why.
    We've cleared everything on Wednesday, I got 2 upgrades and will get more items before next raid. No point wasting time on reforging before that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sprucelee View Post
    Also, just increasing WG output is not exactly the most life saving of heals anyway... it looks good on a meter, but it is not going to save that voodoo doll or player with jasper chains, it's not going to keep the tank up, and its not exactly going to fill a roll that other healers frankly can do better (shamans HR and Monks SCK etc..). There are so many forms of AOE healing, there comes a point where one healer increasing theirs is just reducing the others efficiency.

    So at the end of the day (and my testing) I just found it to be more of a distraction, and a selfish one to boot.. When I stopped using SOTF I felt... free. On the flip side ToL is a flexible, comfortable, and solid choice for almost any fight.
    If you are stealing hps from other healers, drop a healer. If one class is doing worse on an encounter, replace him with other class that does better. Quite simple really. I never felt like stealing someone's hps, because we already were quite close to dying from damage.

    More about meter padding is in Hamlet's posts, he is doing that in LFR (hope he is not actually struggling with healing that). I'm talking only about progression raiding.
    Tortie - Night Elf Druid - The Maelstrom EU

  15. #1495
    If you are that hardcore about playing, I'm shocked you are still playing a druid healer.

  16. #1496
    ^Druids are viable in the right hands, even in 25 man . Why else would Method bring not one, but two Resto Druids to their World First 25m Will of the Emperor kill? That fight is in fact, very nice for Resto Druids since have great mass CC now.

    It'll probably be the same with Shek'zeer when Heart of Fear comes out and it looks like you'll need highly mobile healers for Sha of Fear as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see Resto Druids on those fights as well. If it does happen to be the case, 3/3 End Bosses in a single tier is not bad at all.
    Last edited by Ashrr; 2012-10-22 at 07:01 AM.
    Ashr

  17. #1497
    When it comes to actual healing, we're nowhere near where we need to be. There are better classes to play if you are hardcore enough to make the change.

  18. #1498
    Honestly, I don't see where that's coming from. There's a lot of talk about Druids being crap and I disagree with that. Take a look at For the Horde's logs posted in the previous page. Mjay is second on every fight (not counting Gara'jal since logs have a problem with tracking that afaik), coming behind only their monk who is blowing every single class away, not just druids. He even tops the meter on Spirit Kings.

    Yes, there are certain fights where it makes more sense to pick another class, especially if you need a particular cooldown or if druids are just crap for the role but from a pure numbers standpoint, I'm seeing resto druids being competitive at various levels of progression, including in my own raid.
    Ashr

  19. #1499
    Hi!

    I am relatively new to druids and as such I'm new to resto(I normally play as feral).

    Some questions:

    Should I always renew Lifebloom on the tank? or should I let it expire?

    Should I renew it with Nourish or tap Lifebloom again for instant cast instead?

    How important is it to reach the haste breakpoint? With what kind of ilvl should I be able to reach it with?

    Whats the main difference between dungeons and raids? Should I practice in raid finder?

    Should I avoid overhealing? If so What consequenses does that have then.

    Should I always keep as many HoTs as I can up?

  20. #1500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Octavia View Post
    Hi!

    I am relatively new to druids and as such I'm new to resto(I normally play as feral).

    Some questions:

    Should I always renew Lifebloom on the tank? or should I let it expire?

    Should I renew it with Nourish or tap Lifebloom again for instant cast instead?

    How important is it to reach the haste breakpoint? With what kind of ilvl should I be able to reach it with?

    Whats the main difference between dungeons and raids? Should I practice in raid finder?

    Should I avoid overhealing? If so What consequenses does that have then.

    Should I always keep as many HoTs as I can up?
    If the whole lifebloom heal is going to be effective and you haven't got anything particularly important to do for the next 3 GCDs, you should let the lifebloom expire. If not, refresh it with a nourish if it's not going to overheal or with a cast lifebloom if it would.

    You can reach the haste breakpoint easily with 463 heroic items.

    There's a lot of differences between dungeons and raids. Mainly the fact that you don't need to emergency heal or heal inefficiently so much. If you're going to do 25 man then sure, practice on the RF. 10mans are however a bit different to the 25mans.

    Overhealing is always bad, but inevitable. Overhealing is basically just wasted mana.

    And as for keeping as many hots up as possible, depends. You shouldn't blanket rejuv, but try to keep WG on cooldown and use rejuv when it's going to be effective. Just use your abilities wisely. Heal when necessary, trying to keep yourself down to as little as possible "everything else that WG and SM" is always going to be a good start for healing properly, but don't be afraid to use other spells. Overhealing and emergencyhealing are the 2 things you should avoid the most.

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