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  1. #1221
    Grunt Judaa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangedyn View Post
    If you are not comfortable with losing so much spirit for mastery there's little harm in reverting. It's more of a burst healing vs long term sustainability thing, so it's up to your preference.
    I'll play around with both and see. I got a couple decent trinkets I'm messin around with too. Thanks for the input and the reforge information.

  2. #1222
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    lol... bring on the insults, man. Sorry that I don't play exactly like you, but luckily, druid doesn't require that! Check out WoL, I do pretty fine. And if you want to comment on specs, if you still need furor that's why T13 2PC is good for you, if you think BoTG is better than genesis you haven't read the math that hard, and you don't have NS, which is stronger than the extra point in BoTG.

    As I said, on healing intensive fights and/ or 10-mans DI is fine on a druid. You may not agree, you may not like it, but it's true. That's why some druids gear around it. As for losing mastery/ crit for DI, you GAIN mastery/ crit if you forge around the 1517 point, which is what most druids are doing that get it.

    As for T13, again, I have NEVER had a fight, heroic or otherwise, where I'm oom mid-fight unless it's a horrible attempt or I screwed up. My comp simply does not let this happen easily - I have a boomie that looks after me, two-three priest hymns, and a mana tide. That's what makes druid healing so dynamic: we shift spec, gear and spell use depending on comp and trinket availability and a myriad of other things.

    Missing out on set bonuses with 10 or 20 int in favour of haste gems really doesn't make sense since you're reforging away haste. Also, I wouldn't recommend relying on DI for a few reasons, albeit the latter is debatable (I guess). Static over proc, it's more reliable which is better for heals ultimately.

    BoTG may not be better than Genesis, but it's definitely better than Living Seed! I ran tests with it myself, even fully stacked and reforging for crit the amount healed is TINY compared with other spells looking at overall data. Considering that a huge chunk of our healing is Rejuv, and that Living Seed is conditional (as in only crits proc), BoTG beats it pretty easily. Even if you're doing a lot of tank healing, it's nearly worthless. Sadly. In theory it's a great spell.

    As for trinks... Losing 450+ int (considering your raid experience) in favour of crit and passive int is a bad call. ICD is too long, and passive int has a multiplying negative effect on throughput ESPECIALLY considering the trinks you should be needing on in H DS, etc etc. For similar reasons I don't like relying on DI. You're a good player, and your style is interesting, but I question the value of some of your decisions, especially gearing and reforg priorities. You have skill, but you could be maximizing your throughput by making a few small changes.

    Parkwaydrive: DI is great on a druid. Even on 25 mans. Depends what fight, what classes you're with, what specs, etc. Not that simple.

  3. #1223
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarah View Post
    BoTG may not be better than Genesis, but it's definitely better than Living Seed! I ran tests with it myself, even fully stacked and reforging for crit the amount healed is TINY compared with other spells looking at overall data. Considering that a huge chunk of our healing is Rejuv, and that Living Seed is conditional (as in only crits proc), BoTG beats it pretty easily. Even if you're doing a lot of tank healing, it's nearly worthless. Sadly. In theory it's a great spell.
    Hi, it looks like you are new here. Here is some stuff you might want to read before pretending to be an expert on things
    http://theincbear.com/living-seed-replacement/

  4. #1224
    Quote Originally Posted by tangedyn View Post
    Hi, it looks like you are new here. Here is some stuff you might want to read before pretending to be an expert on things
    Did you know you can disagree with people without being a jerk about it? I was not "pretending to be an expert". I just said my opinion. Geesh. Merry Christmas to you too.

    I don't like Living Seed's unreliability and the tiny amount it heals for. I'd rather take a realiable buff to one of our most powerful spells, and an ohshit button. So I spec BoTG and NS instead. Pure numbers are not the be-all and end-all for healing. I'm sorry that my gentle disagreement offended your delicate sensibilities, but I genuinely was just trying to help by making suggestions.

    Edit: Err, the math you use relies on having your spec, which is linked... and then you are dual-feral specced? O_o It's not very convincing, though your other work is quite impressive. Other blogs are saying it depends on your healing style. If you are doing 10s or 5s and rely more in direct heals, then LS is much more likely to provide a healing boost. If you heal more with hots and do 25 mans (which I do), then the value of LS drops. Those blogs also show the raw numbers of their work, which is a bit more convincing. You are correct that I was oversimplifying, but it is by no means an objective call that everyone should follow.
    Last edited by Zarah; 2011-12-26 at 02:03 PM.

  5. #1225
    Hey guys,
    I just read the descussion about dropping t12 4p a page before and now I have a lame question.
    Does it make sense to switch from mostly t12 normal to t13 normal? Higher itemlvl= int + secondary stats, regardless set boni?
    Our Tank is full t13 now and next raid our tokens go to other raidmembers, and I thought I should ask someone with knowledge if it is worth it, or to step aside for Dmg dealers.
    We now have 1 HM down, probably going to attempt the next Heroic boss today, and from what I've heard of they are a lot mor heal intensive then normal mode or Morochok. I did not have any mana issues during any fight...do I really need the 2p t13 bonus?

    Thanks in advance

    PS: Anyone interested my Armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte.../Leokan/simple (trying to be not Moonkin specced)

  6. #1226
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarah View Post
    Did you know you can disagree with people without being a jerk about it? I was not "pretending to be an expert". I just said my opinion. Geesh. Merry Christmas to you too.

    I don't like Living Seed's unreliability and the tiny amount it heals for. I'd rather take a realiable buff to one of our most powerful spells, and an ohshit button. So I spec BoTG and NS instead. Pure numbers are not the be-all and end-all for healing. I'm sorry that my gentle disagreement offended your delicate sensibilities, but I genuinely was just trying to help by making suggestions.
    Are you healing 10 man or 25man? Living seed is really good for 10man. considering the other alternatives ofc. I also skip nature's bounty since i only use regrowth during omen procs when in ToL, or when i want to activate nature's grace. And NS is a must in this case, just have HT glyphed

    Considering that a huge chunk of our healing is Rejuv, and that Living Seed is conditional (as in only crits proc), BoTG beats it pretty easily. Even if you're doing a lot of tank healing, it's nearly worthless.
    Your logic is flawed. Yes a huge chunk of your healing comes from rejuv. but BotG increases that by ~1% per point. 2 points is about 2%. living seed does about what, 3,5% of my total healing? Thats a lot better then BotG. Now, in 25 it would be different, but since I do 10m and I need to keep healing the tank, I cast lots of HT/nourish and those crits are awesome
    Last edited by Mokka; 2011-12-26 at 02:18 PM.

  7. #1227
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarah View Post
    Missing out on set bonuses with 10 or 20 int in favour of haste gems really doesn't make sense since you're reforging away haste. Also, I wouldn't recommend relying on DI for a few reasons, albeit the latter is debatable (I guess). Static over proc, it's more reliable which is better for heals ultimately.

    BoTG may not be better than Genesis, but it's definitely better than Living Seed! I ran tests with it myself, even fully stacked and reforging for crit the amount healed is TINY compared with other spells looking at overall data. Considering that a huge chunk of our healing is Rejuv, and that Living Seed is conditional (as in only crits proc), BoTG beats it pretty easily. Even if you're doing a lot of tank healing, it's nearly worthless. Sadly. In theory it's a great spell.

    As for trinks... Losing 450+ int (considering your raid experience) in favour of crit and passive int is a bad call. ICD is too long, and passive int has a multiplying negative effect on throughput ESPECIALLY considering the trinks you should be needing on in H DS, etc etc. For similar reasons I don't like relying on DI. You're a good player, and your style is interesting, but I question the value of some of your decisions, especially gearing and reforg priorities. You have skill, but you could be maximizing your throughput by making a few small changes.

    Parkwaydrive: DI is great on a druid. Even on 25 mans. Depends what fight, what classes you're with, what specs, etc. Not that simple.
    I don't have another trinket DS REFUSE to drop and I was using the alchy one until I got enough haste. There's an eye in my bank, but I'd rather have the passive crit/ mastery with a bonus to innervate than a useless proc. I really, really, REALLY want to get a frigging DS trinket if they'd drop, rargha.sdsa,.

    As for my haste, I just got my weapon and I've gotta start all over with gems/ reforging. Just haven't done it, been a bit busy with TOR since I got it >.>

    And I've never relied on DI. Got it for a while when we had 1 SP and 1 boomie with three locks, but I'd always lose it on Alys for sure and other fights depending on our mages whims, so didn't bother to reforge around it. It's not something *I* reforge around, but others have, and Parkwaydrive saying it's useless always was just silly.

    As for LS vs. BoTG, it's situational, as others have said. I like it because a lot of things proc it when you regrowth in tree as well as when I have to tank heal. BoTG just doesn't do enough for me, though I don't particularly like LS either. If I had my choice, I'd take NEITHER of 'em, but you have to take one to advance

  8. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarah View Post
    Did you know you can disagree with people without being a jerk about it? I was not "pretending to be an expert". I just said my opinion. Geesh. Merry Christmas to you too.

    I don't like Living Seed's unreliability and the tiny amount it heals for. I'd rather take a realiable buff to one of our most powerful spells, and an ohshit button. So I spec BoTG and NS instead. Pure numbers are not the be-all and end-all for healing. I'm sorry that my gentle disagreement offended your delicate sensibilities, but I genuinely was just trying to help by making suggestions.

    Edit: Err, the math you use relies on having your spec, which is linked... and then you are dual-feral specced? O_o It's not very convincing, though your other work is quite impressive. Other blogs are saying it depends on your healing style. If you are doing 10s or 5s and rely more in direct heals, then LS is much more likely to provide a healing boost. If you heal more with hots and do 25 mans (which I do), then the value of LS drops. Those blogs also show the raw numbers of their work, which is a bit more convincing. You are correct that I was oversimplifying, but it is by no means an objective call that everyone should follow.
    The calculator completely takes into account your healing style, by using values from your log.
    Many of the restoration blogs and resource link to my calculator - check out Lissana's guide and Myrrar's guide.
    The source for the calculation can be seen from the web source.

    It's pretty clear, even if your only source of Living Seed comes from Swiftmending every 15 seconds, it will do more healing than BotG talent. BotG is THAT terrible and overrated a talent.

    Point out any blog that says otherwise - you can be pretty sure the author doesn't know about BotG additive stacking.

  9. #1229
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarah View Post
    Did you know you can disagree with people without being a jerk about it? I was not "pretending to be an expert". I just said my opinion. Geesh. Merry Christmas to you too.

    I don't like Living Seed's unreliability and the tiny amount it heals for. I'd rather take a realiable buff to one of our most powerful spells, and an ohshit button. So I spec BoTG and NS instead. Pure numbers are not the be-all and end-all for healing. I'm sorry that my gentle disagreement offended your delicate sensibilities, but I genuinely was just trying to help by making suggestions.

    Edit: Err, the math you use relies on having your spec, which is linked... and then you are dual-feral specced? O_o It's not very convincing, though your other work is quite impressive. Other blogs are saying it depends on your healing style. If you are doing 10s or 5s and rely more in direct heals, then LS is much more likely to provide a healing boost. If you heal more with hots and do 25 mans (which I do), then the value of LS drops. Those blogs also show the raw numbers of their work, which is a bit more convincing. You are correct that I was oversimplifying, but it is by no means an objective call that everyone should follow.
    The calculator is correct. It also agrees with all the other top theorycrafters. It DOES depend on how you heal, that's why you input all your numbers and it calculates how much each will actually benefit you. Take logs of all the fights you do, add them all in, use which is top most of the time. Which, in 10s and 25s, if you are healing correctly, will almost always be LS > BotG

    For 10s and 25s if you keep LB up as much as possible, use ToL correctly so you get CC a normally amount of times, you use Rg vs HT correctly, along with all the other basics, it's rare this tier for it to be anything but NB > LS > BotG

    If you test for yourself and they are drastically different on all fights, you may want to take a look on how you heal because you are probably doing something wrong.

    NB is a no brainer. LS vs BotG is normally the only thing debatable, but outside of a very few instances where you shouldn't be specing yourself after anyway, botg is pretty terrible.

  10. #1230
    Thanks very much for taking the time to explain all that nicely and for the patience with my ignorance of the complicated mechanics of BotG etc. Makes sense, though it seems like BotG is not working right, because it seems to be pretty useless given how it stacks. Definitely changing my spec. I forget who asked before, but I almost exclusively raid heal 25s. But even then it seems LS EASILY beats out BotG, even with just 1 point. Gonna spec for it.

  11. #1231
    Quote Originally Posted by Myrrar View Post
    outside of a very few instances where you shouldn't be specing yourself after anyway, botg is pretty terrible.
    Although LS seems to show better numbers on paper, it's not actually better than BotG. It's one of those moments when the choice should be dictated by the common sense and not by raw numbers. Let me explain.

    Fights virtually consist of low/medium damage phases, where only tanks get constant DPS and the most of the raid damage is avoidable, and short but heavy read-wide AOE damage phases. Now ask yourself two questions:
    1. Do you really care how many %s LS gives you when your raid takes like 10-15k DPS? I definitely don't.
    2. Do you direct-heal through heavy raid-wide damage? I hope not (free RG's in ToL should be the only exception).

    When sh*t is about to happen we either pop CDs or spam rejuvs. And that's where ANY +heal bonus for rejuv matters, while LS is almost worthless. So, although I agree totally that BotG is weaker in theory, it's still more desirable in an actual fight.

  12. #1232
    both talents are crap. perseverance is king because druids are the weakest healers from all classes and dead healer does 0 healing

  13. #1233
    Quote Originally Posted by SolTheDruid View Post
    Although LS seems to show better numbers on paper, it's not actually better than BotG. It's one of those moments when the choice should be dictated by the common sense and not by raw numbers. Let me explain.

    Fights virtually consist of low/medium damage phases, where only tanks get constant DPS and the most of the raid damage is avoidable, and short but heavy read-wide AOE damage phases. Now ask yourself two questions:
    1. Do you really care how many %s LS gives you when your raid takes like 10-15k DPS? I definitely don't.
    2. Do you direct-heal through heavy raid-wide damage? I hope not (free RG's in ToL should be the only exception).

    When sh*t is about to happen we either pop CDs or spam rejuvs. And that's where ANY +heal bonus for rejuv matters, while LS is almost worthless. So, although I agree totally that BotG is weaker in theory, it's still more desirable in an actual fight.
    While I agreed initially, where BotG fails is the stacking. It really is an incredibly TINY increase for rejuv, and even though LS approaches healing for equally as tiny an amount, it has a relatively low overheal (this is considering a 25 man high raid damage scenario). We should be doing some direct healing during high raid damage, some regrowths on CC procs and nourishes to keep harmony up and refresh tanks. Even if you do the bare minimum of direct healing, LS will still easily creep ahead of BotG. In theory, I agree, but BotG is really just THAT bad. It's a broken talent, IMO, and if they fix it it'll easily be better. But because it doesn't even stack properly the increase in overall healing tends to hover at 0.3% when compared with LS. Lots of people have numbers of 1.5%+ for LS. Ive only played for a year or so, so my LS tends to be much lower, but still well over twice the healing of BotG with low overheal. Even if you don't like following raw numbers (and I don't), it's hard to disregard.

  14. #1234
    Objective data vs Subjective opinions, we'll see which one people will believe in.

  15. #1235
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolTheDruid View Post
    Although LS seems to show better numbers on paper, it's not actually better than BotG. It's one of those moments when the choice should be dictated by the common sense and not by raw numbers. Let me explain.

    Fights virtually consist of low/medium damage phases, where only tanks get constant DPS and the most of the raid damage is avoidable, and short but heavy read-wide AOE damage phases. Now ask yourself two questions:
    1. Do you really care how many %s LS gives you when your raid takes like 10-15k DPS? I definitely don't.
    2. Do you direct-heal through heavy raid-wide damage? I hope not (free RG's in ToL should be the only exception).

    When sh*t is about to happen we either pop CDs or spam rejuvs. And that's where ANY +heal bonus for rejuv matters, while LS is almost worthless. So, although I agree totally that BotG is weaker in theory, it's still more desirable in an actual fight.

    So, even though when testing your actual numbers from a fight LS leads to more effective healing than BotG, BotG is better?

    No. LS leads to more healing because it leads to more healing. The amount of extra healing RJ gets from BotG in any phase does not compete with the healing LS gives throughout a full fight.

    What you are saying makes absolutely no sense. 10k effective healing or 5k effective healing? Those aren't actual number, but you get the point. BotG does so little additional healing because it stacks additively it's worthless.

    I raid 25s, I blanket RJ a lot of the time. I only use RG in emergencies and on CC. I hardly ever HT. I never nourish besides downtimes. LS equals to more healing than BotG.

    Just because you 'feel like it would give more healing' doesn't mean it does. BotG is broken, end of story. If you read the OP, as it says,


    BotG stacks additively. Meaning with two points you only get right over 2% instead of 4. There is really no reason to take 2/2 botg and only really should take 1/2 if you are dropping massive amounts of regen points and have a ton to spare.
    Per Dendrek: Rejuvenation is affected by several additive effects, meaning that although BotG should increase healing by 2% per point, it actually increases healing by MUCH LESS than 2%. In fact, it's worth something close to 1% increase per point. That's a 1% increase to Rejuv's healing, not a 1% increase to overall healing. It's very likely close to a .5% increase per point to overall healing. That amount is so small it almost makes those wasted talent points.
    You assume because we RJ a lot now the talent is better. You can math out your own healing and see that'a not the case. This isn't theory, this is taking logs and seeing fact.

  16. #1236
    Basically this: LS kinda sucks, especially for 3 points, but BotG sucks even more.

    Maybe one day they'll finally make LS into an actual absorb...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    I don't really get how Bloodlust fits Shamans...

    "I need to calm the elements, and through our sacred bond we will - wait, is that a fucking boss? I'M SO FUCKING ANGRY! I'M GOING TO KILL HIM! NO, WAIT! I'M GOING TO RAPE HIM THEN KILL HIM! WITH SPOONS! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE!"

  17. #1237
    The value of living seed isn't the hps you get but the potential to save a players life when they need fast healing immediately. With NB and living seed, regrowth is actually a very potent flash heal. Trying to analyze the spell in terms of % healing done on WoL is like trying to assess the value of NS based on how much throughput it does on an average fight.

  18. #1238
    I don't understand the debate here between BotG and LS...

    It takes thirty seconds to open up your parses, punch a few numbers into a calculator, and see the clear and objective result. BotG is terrible, LS is less terrible.

    It's a complete and utter no-brainer.

  19. #1239
    Quote Originally Posted by midazolam View Post
    Just looking at a parse from this past week (Ultraxion 10 Normal) If I were to take points from Living Seed and put them in Blessing of the Grove, it would be an overall HPS loss. Even on Ultraxion. BotG is a garbage talent. I can see what you are saying, but I just can't justify spending points there.

    Also, LS is much better in 10 man than 25 man, so that may be skewing my thoughts on it also.

    8/0/33 = win
    Erm. Living Seed may be less shit than BotG, but it's still shit and definitely not better than Furor or Moonglow.
    With most restos losing their 2T12 bonus, the spec I would recommend is http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0hbhZMZMfzudMruouo

  20. #1240
    Quote Originally Posted by tangedyn View Post
    Erm. Living Seed may be less shit than BotG, but it's still shit and definitely not better than Furor or Moonglow.
    With most restos losing their 2T12 bonus, the spec I would recommend is http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0hbhZMZMfzudMruouo
    Most restos haven't needed furor since T11 and have been speccing out of moonglow since early T12. I ran with 1-2 points in moonglow long before having 2PC T12

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