What meta to use at 85 as Surv

[Deleted]

Just use the relentless with a load of hitgems + reforging the hit from gear -> Win?

[Renley]

You need a larger sample size from raids. Arcane Shot actually scales better than Cobra Shot, so there's no reason for it to be hitting lower. Like I said I'm used to seeing right around 8k for Cobra, right around 9k for Arcane. That is glyphed though, so I would expect them to be dead even unglyphed.

Still, you're talking about a 1.6s cast vs a 1 second GCD. 7.3 Arcane vs 7.8k Cobra is 7,300 DPS vs 4,875 DPS in Arcane's favor. With raid buffs that should widen as you'll be gaining AP and Arcane gets higher AP scaling than Cobra. Also at 7.3 vs 7.8 if you were to glyph Arcane it would become 8.175, meaning it would be higher than Cobra, while still being 60% faster. You claimed yoy're basically ignoring Arcane, so I would assume the low numbers from Bastion are due to not using it as often when you have procs up, which makes it look lower. However, if you were to compare the Cobra Shot damage that occurred in the same time-frame you'd probably find Arcane beating it on damage per cast.

I didnt say I ignored it, I just said I hardly use it. I usually don't ever have the extra focus for it. Sure, I may pop a few off when I get a lock and load at full focus, but I don't find that scenario often enough to wanna glyph for arcane shot. It accounts for such a low part of our DPS that I find glyph of serpent sting to be far better, especially with out low crit atm.

[Jiry]

Just use the relentless with a load of hitgems + reforging the hit from gear -> Win?

That wouldn't be a problem if our main dps stat wasn't agility, which we can't reforge to. So you're losing agility to gain a secondary dps stat

I remember testing this on beta and I saw a DPS loss when using 54crit/3% (+hit gems) compared to 54mastery/runspeed (+agi gems) because of losing so much agility, with the low crit rating we have at the moment I don't see 3% incr. crit dmg being that viable.

I didnt say I ignored it, I just said I hardly use it. I usually don't ever have the extra focus for it. Sure, I may pop a few off when I get a lock and load at full focus, but I don't find that scenario often enough to wanna glyph for arcane shot. It accounts for such a low part of our DPS that I find glyph of serpent sting to be far better, especially with out low crit atm.

So you're wasting an LnL proc on an Arcane Shot? Use KC right after the first ES on LnL when you're gonna end up with > 90 focus after your second ES. You're right about glyphing SerpS instead of Arcane Shot.

[Renley]

That wouldn't be a problem if our main dps stat wasn't agility, which we can't reforge to. So you're losing agility to gain a secondary dps stat

I remember testing this on beta and I saw a DPS loss when using 54crit/3% (+hit gems) compared to 54mastery/runspeed (+agi gems) because of losing so much agility, with the low crit rating we have at the moment I don't see 3% incr. crit dmg being that viable.


So you're wasting an LnL proc on an Arcane Shot? Use KC right after the first ES on LnL when you're gonna end up with > 90 focus after your second ES. You're right about glyphing SerpS instead of Arcane Shot.

OH! No no no! When I have full focus, and I get a LnL, after using the Explosive Shots, I usually burn off the extra focus with a couple Arc shots, assuming I don't need to reapply Black Arrow. Sorry about that. :P But that KC thing. Thanks for bringing that up. I kept reading it, but actually forgot about that. <3

[harky]

If you're managing focus properly then KC won't be used really. The only time it's useful is if you have 70+ focus when LnL procs and do not have KS available. Even then you need to be careful. Its damage per focus is much lower than Arcane Shot, so there's a threshold where it's worth over-capping Focus and using Arcane between the second and third ES, instead of KC between the first and second. If you're at 70 Focus when LnL procs then doing ES -> CoS -> ES will leave you at ~95-98 Focus so you can do AS -> ES and not risk capping. If you do ES -> KC -> ES you'll be left at 57, so you'll do CoS -> ES. So you're trading 1 Arcane for 1 KC. Arcane hits harder than KC, which means as long as you're not wasting more than 18 Focus you're fine. So you'd actually only want to use KC if you get LnL while you're at 90+ Focus. So it's very, very situational. Normally you'd be using Arcane at 75+ Focus.

Anyway, the glyph argument is still comparing 6% crit on ~7% of your damage to +12% on ~5% of your damage. Neither is a huge boost, but I've had much better luck with Arcane Shot.

[Renley]

If you're managing focus properly then KC won't be used really. The only time it's useful is if you have 70+ focus when LnL procs and do not have KS available. Even then you need to be careful. Its damage per focus is much lower than Arcane Shot, so there's a threshold where it's worth over-capping Focus and using Arcane between the second and third ES, instead of KC between the first and second. If you're at 70 Focus when LnL procs then doing ES -> CoS -> ES will leave you at ~95-98 Focus so you can do AS -> ES and not risk capping. If you do ES -> KC -> ES you'll be left at 57, so you'll do CoS -> ES. So you're trading 1 Arcane for 1 KC. Arcane hits harder than KC, which means as long as you're not wasting more than 18 Focus you're fine. So you'd actually only want to use KC if you get LnL while you're at 90+ Focus. So it's very, very situational. Normally you'd be using Arcane at 75+ Focus.

Anyway, the glyph argument is still comparing 6% crit on ~7% of your damage to +12% on ~5% of your damage. Neither is a huge boost, but I've had much better luck with Arcane Shot.

I think my arcane shot is a bit lower than that my serpent a bit higher. *shrugs*
And on the KC or Arc Shot part, also have to take into consideration focus being gained back from those explosive shots. I usually don't find myself focus capped too often when LnL procs, but when I do, the KC there will be appreciated between that first and second explosive shot.

[harky]

That does consider your natural focus regen. That's why you're gaining 27 Focus from a single Cobra Shot. And again.. it's a DPS loss. If you use KC on the first, you will not be using KC on the second. You will be using Cobra as even if capped you will drop from 100 to 60. If you were to use it a second time you would wind up at 35 Focus and not have enough for your final Explosive Shot in the LnL sequence. Thus you are trading 1 KC for 1 Arcane Shot. Since Arcane Shot has much higher DPF as SV it becomes a DPS loss in nearly all cases to use KC. It is better to allow yourself to cap Focus instead and do ES -> CoS -> ES -> AS -> ES, instead of ES -> KC -> ES -> CoS -> ES.

Anyway, consider say Arcane Shot doing 4% of your damage and Serpent Sting's DoT doing 10%. If you have 40% crit on Serpent Sting the glyph will increase this by ~4%. This would mean glyphing Serpent Sting is an ~.4% DPS gain, while glyphing Arcane is a ~.48% DPS gain. Keep in mind that DPS gains from Crit can be ballparked as: ( 1 - crit% ) * +crit%. So you do not gain 6% SrS damage, you gain ( 1 - .4 ) * .06 = 3.6%. If you're using Relentless this becomes 3.708%. I rounded up for convenience.

Either way we're arguing over 30-40 DPS. :P

[Renley]

That does consider your natural focus regen. That's why you're gaining 27 Focus from a single Cobra Shot. And again.. it's a DPS loss. If you use KC on the first, you will not be using KC on the second. You will be using Cobra as even if capped you will drop from 100 to 60. If you were to use it a second time you would wind up at 35 Focus and not have enough for your final Explosive Shot in the LnL sequence. Thus you are trading 1 KC for 1 Arcane Shot. Since Arcane Shot has much higher DPF as SV it becomes a DPS loss in nearly all cases to use KC. It is better to allow yourself to cap Focus instead and do ES -> CoS -> ES -> AS -> ES, instead of ES -> KC -> ES -> CoS -> ES.

Anyway, consider say Arcane Shot doing 4% of your damage and Serpent Sting's DoT doing 10%. If you have 40% crit on Serpent Sting the glyph will increase this by ~4%. This would mean glyphing Serpent Sting is an ~.4% DPS gain, while glyphing Arcane is a ~.48% DPS gain. Keep in mind that DPS gains from Crit can be ballparked as: ( 1 - crit% ) * +crit%. So you do not gain 6% SrS damage, you gain ( 1 - .4 ) * .06 = 3.6%. If you're using Relentless this becomes 3.708%. I rounded up for convenience.

Either way we're arguing over 30-40 DPS. :P

Haha, still fun! I enjoy it. Learning a lot, so I thank you. And good to know about the KC...now taking it back off bars.

[Xedriell]

Haha, still fun! I enjoy it. Learning a lot, so I thank you. And good to know about the KC...now taking it back off bars.

Actually you will end up in situations where you procc LnLand are already focus capped either with both stacks or still one stack of LnL still going. Thats the point where you want to use KC. The only one.