Social behavior in dungeons

[iHunt]

One thing I really dont understand is why hunters nowadays think they can only trap via their launcher. Are the days long gone that they distracting shot a mob to it if need be? Cos i have yet to see a single hunter do this since tbc days. Its a little tricker if they want a caster trapped granted but thats what silencing shots for i would assume.

Btw I aint ever played a hunter just remember some truly awesome ones back int he day that used to do this for fun, while maintaining high level damage.

I trap in two ways:

1. Trap launcher when I can.

2. Trap + Distracting shot or LoS pull when it is needed.

I think it depends on how long you play a hunter and how well you know the class. Since I have been playing for six years and have experienced full vanilla, I know how to trap without trap launcher. Players who started during tbc, might know, but player who started in wotlk have no clue how to trap. Most of them atleast.

It is not a huge problem, as you can trap pretty well with trap launcher as long as you shoot your trap before the tank charges in, you shoot the trap exactly on the mob, unless the tank has pulled already because then it wont trigger and you have a feel for distance.

I'd recommend new hunters to practice this on some mobs. I'm not sure about the practice dummy, because I'm not entirely sure it will trigger. A target dummy can't be trapped I think, but also it may not even trigger and resist due to that the target dummy might not be trappable in the first place.

What I mean is, you can trap a mob and the trap can resist, but still be triggered. I'm not sure if this is the case with target dummies, but well worth trying it out.

[Pwnpaw]

You generally think that you are the boss of the group. When you enter an instance, the first thing you say is, I will leave if we wipe because I'm a tank and I can get a better group within minutes. Also, you fail to realise that hunters have misdirection and can pull certain hard to reach packs for you without risking to pull surrounding packs of mobs.

- I am the boss of the group.
- I will leave if we wipe (wipe unecassery that is, content is new and hard so)
- I can find a better group within minutes
- I don't need a hunter to pull for me

-Pwnpaw

<Moderator edit: Whilst this guy is an arrogant prat that wow could do without, his post isn't trolling per-se so no need to report it any more>

[zael]

I spent the better part of TBC and Wrath off tanking in raid situations and providing my services in dungeons and off-day raids. Let me explain something to everyone:

The tank is the boss. Controversial, I know; but true. There is a reason you wait 15 minutes as a Healer, 30 as a DPS and queue instantly as a tank. There are fewer of us and we are, generally, mandatory. Any tank worth their salt doesn't have to be there at that moment and could be doing any one of a hundred other things - so show a bit of gratitude that they're lending their shield to your dungeon.

This may seem off topic, but after reading through this thread, all I see is tank bashing. I understand you guys think you're speaking out against some oppressive majority, but the attitude you catch from a tank is not always undeserved. Understand that this is the person who bares the brunt of the group's success or failure. If you're the weak link in the group's chain, the tank is best suited to ensure you don't break the whole show when you snap.

Secondly, just because I want to address it:

Another piece of etiquette is to actually use the persons name when you are asking a question or requesting something. Nothing rubs me the wrong way more than hearing, Hey Paladin, give me Kings.

I have a name and it's much easier to type than Paladin, use it!

No. Especially if you're from another realm - I don't care. I'll never see you again and to me, you're a buff. Treat me with the same regard and we'll get along swimmingly. I'm not there to be your friend. If the mobs are attacking me instead of you, be grateful and do your job.

Back on target:

There are several bad tanks out there, do not misunderstand. You will meet plenty of them. But try and understand that they're trying (for the most part). Nothing irks me more than to see a hybrid playing as DPS, then complain about the quality of the tanking and / or healing (or honestly, just seeing Hybrids playing DPS in LFD at all).

If you don't like the tanking, man up. Equip a sword and board and show the world how it's done. Roll on DPS gear; the LFD tool allows you to do this. Otherwise, leave the group or do your job in silence. There are a thousand more waiting to take your spot.

[LQDMTL]

One thing I really dont understand is why hunters nowadays think they can only trap via their launcher. Are the days long gone that they distracting shot a mob to it if need be? Cos i have yet to see a single hunter do this since tbc days. Its a little tricker if they want a caster trapped granted but thats what silencing shots for i would assume.

Btw I aint ever played a hunter just remember some truly awesome ones back int he day that used to do this for fun, while maintaining high level damage.

I can, and do, use distracting shot and pull my target over a trap when necessary. However:
1 - it's a slower start to getting CC done and getting DPS rolling, which means a longer fight overall and more strain on healer mana
2 - it means I, or someone else, could be taking potentially more damage at the start of the fight which is completely avoidable with a CC pull, see point #1.
3 - it requires that I have enough room for a small kite, which isn't always available. We tend to skip trash packs and that doesn't always leave room for a trap-kite.
4 - if a group can't see points 1 through 3 and the tank is too stubborn to even try a CC pull, I've no problem leaving group for another group which would enjoy running a bit smoother.

I'm all about efficiency in my play and the old days of trap-kiting are nowhere near as efficient as a well coordinated CC pull.

Then again since I'm almost always in a guild group these days, my opinion on this is somewhat irrelevant to the rest of you.

---------- Post added 2010-12-14 at 08:03 AM ----------

I spent the better part of TBC and Wrath off tanking in raid situations and providing my services in dungeons and off-day raids. Let me explain something to everyone:

The tank is the boss. Controversial, I know; but true. There is a reason you wait 15 minutes as a Healer, 30 as a DPS and queue instantly as a tank. There are fewer of us and we are, generally, mandatory. Any tank worth their salt doesn't have to be there at that moment and could be doing any one of a hundred other things - so show a bit of gratitude that they're lending their shield to your dungeon. <snip>

I've played tank quite extensively in several MMOs, most certainly including WoW. I don't carry your attitude and tanks like you still offend me.

[Deleted]

Hello fellow mmo-champions,

TIPS AND TRICKS:



COMMUNICATION:

1. Introduction.
The first thing you do when you enter a dungeon is saying hello and asking how others are. Yes this is VERY important, because this makes people trust you more and it shows that you are not only here for the gear. Say Hi guys, how are you doing? I'm from holland and you guys? It's simple and really important to built up a temporary social bond, even if it's for only 1 hour or less. This will possibly earn you with new friends and new dungeon buddies.

:S but im not from holland...


OT this is a very constructive post and i wish we could splash it in game...

[Serathy]

Nice thread.

Ok well lets say it this way ^^ I am a elitist.
Yes I have the joy to paly wow alot, hav a GF, a well palyed Job and a social life. Its my joice...here comes the but:

Why should i think i am any better than you? I tank not because its cool, i get a instant inv or in any other reasons. I like it...i like to be punched in the phase, but please let i be the Boss and not my fellow teammembers

I am a really nice tank i guess. If you ask, ill explane the boss to you. If you are embarassed to ask in public, send me a whisper or a ts link and I'll tell you there. Np
- If you run in, not knowing the tactics and don't ask and i'll find out - I will beat you up as hell. You have no right to risk our "lives"

I love to elt the hunter pull. SV with ice-trap, are the best you can get.
-If you pull with misdirect befor either i say you may or the healer is oom. Prepare for verbal beating.

I i ask you to kite, You may say no. I'll see if i can get it fixed with somebody else, or i'll see if the tactic allows a diffrent way.
- If you are ok with kitting, an dind't tell anbody yuo never done it, or you just don't you it beacause you thoutgh "gogogo"..well beating again.

If have no Problem with people doing something wrong, whiping or something else. What kills me is people that think they will be through in 5 min, arrogance and stupidity.
Easysiest way to get along: Start thinking, be polite and try! not to so something wrong. And if you do a "sry my fault. may somebody tell me what exactly i can do to improve?" will be helpfull to you and your team.

[Geckomayhem]

A very nice summary of instance etiquette. Everyone has a role but not everyone you meet is considerate or even understands their role to the full.

"And this is most important about playing in dungeons and wow in general, have fun!"
Perhaps you should have said this at the start as well. It's actually something that a lot of people forget when they get so intently focused on the end-goal before them, shoving anything and everything - including the fun factor - out of the way, in order to achieve that goal.

The whole paragraph about not judging people also stands out for me. If everyone gave all others the benefit of the doubt, regardless of how poorly geared or lacking in achievements they were, the world (of warcraft) would be a better place all around. That said, if someone is completely lost and messed up, it helps to take a mature attitude towards helping them rather than nastily pointing out where they are going blatantly wrong.

Often the way that you offer guidance and suggestions is just as important as the comments themselves!

Thanks.

[iHunt]

I spent the better part of TBC and Wrath off tanking in raid situations and providing my services in dungeons and off-day raids. Let me explain something to everyone:

The tank is the boss. Controversial, I know; but true. There is a reason you wait 15 minutes as a Healer, 30 as a DPS and queue instantly as a tank. There are fewer of us and we are, generally, mandatory. Any tank worth their salt doesn't have to be there at that moment and could be doing any one of a hundred other things - so show a bit of gratitude that they're lending their shield to your dungeon.

This may seem off topic, but after reading through this thread, all I see is tank bashing. I understand you guys think you're speaking out against some oppressive majority, but the attitude you catch from a tank is not always undeserved. Understand that this is the person who bares the brunt of the group's success or failure. If you're the weak link in the group's chain, the tank is best suited to ensure you don't break the whole show when you snap.

Secondly, just because I want to address it:



No. Especially if you're from another realm - I don't care. I'll never see you again and to me, you're a buff. Treat me with the same regard and we'll get along swimmingly. I'm not there to be your friend. If the mobs are attacking me instead of you, be grateful and do your job.

Back on target:

There are several bad tanks out there, do not misunderstand. You will meet plenty of them. But try and understand that they're trying (for the most part). Nothing irks me more than to see a hybrid playing as DPS, then complain about the quality of the tanking and / or healing (or honestly, just seeing Hybrids playing DPS in LFD at all).

If you don't like the tanking, man up. Equip a sword and board and show the world how it's done. Roll on DPS gear; the LFD tool allows you to do this. Otherwise, leave the group or do your job in silence. There are a thousand more waiting to take your spot.

Okay quick and short: You are NOT the boss. You are just as manditory as anyone else.

---------- Post added 2010-12-15 at 09:20 AM ----------

Nice thread.

Ok well lets say it this way ^^ I am a elitist.
Yes I have the joy to paly wow alot, hav a GF, a well palyed Job and a social life. Its my joice...here comes the but:

Why should i think i am any better than you? I tank not because its cool, i get a instant inv or in any other reasons. I like it...i like to be punched in the phase, but please let i be the Boss and not my fellow teammembers

I am a really nice tank i guess. If you ask, ill explane the boss to you. If you are embarassed to ask in public, send me a whisper or a ts link and I'll tell you there. Np
- If you run in, not knowing the tactics and don't ask and i'll find out - I will beat you up as hell. You have no right to risk our "lives"

I love to elt the hunter pull. SV with ice-trap, are the best you can get.
-If you pull with misdirect befor either i say you may or the healer is oom. Prepare for verbal beating.

I i ask you to kite, You may say no. I'll see if i can get it fixed with somebody else, or i'll see if the tactic allows a diffrent way.
- If you are ok with kitting, an dind't tell anbody yuo never done it, or you just don't you it beacause you thoutgh "gogogo"..well beating again.

If have no Problem with people doing something wrong, whiping or something else. What kills me is people that think they will be through in 5 min, arrogance and stupidity.
Easysiest way to get along: Start thinking, be polite and try! not to so something wrong. And if you do a "sry my fault. may somebody tell me what exactly i can do to improve?" will be helpfull to you and your team.

I agree that you should be polite to people, but if you beat people to the ground verbally, then you are no better than the rest of the people who are not polite.

---------- Post added 2010-12-15 at 09:25 AM ----------

And from this post on, it would be nice to not read about arrogant tanks anymore who still think they are in charge of everything. We are discussing the proper etiquette here. Not creating a hate dump for those who feel offended by the situations I have pointed out.

If you feel offended by anything this thread is about, then do not read it any further. Simply said and done, release your frustration on a brick wall and not in this tread please, thank you.

[Maelle]

Very nice OP, sadly the people who make others instance runs a huge chore right now will continue to do so as they will either not read this, or are arrogant enough to read while nodding sagely, seeing none of their own actions there ^^

Probably the only random I have left recently other than those that disbanded around me was a guild run, where I was the 1 random dps. The instance was in part progress, and they were at the boss in VP thats a big dragon with the changing winds (can't place it's name). We ran in and tryed maybe 10 times but due to them always taking insane damage, but worse their two dps were on about 3K a piece, it was not going to happen. I politely said I was going to bow out, and suggested maybe they run some normals for gear and to practice tactics. They agreed and we went our own way with no animosity, what could have been an unpleasant situation if I had got on my high horse and started picking at things turned out fine.

The vote to kick tool is also being used in an extremely abusive way, I very rarely vote yes on them, but sadly most people just seem to hammer the yes, and some poor dude, sometimes for no reason gets booted. I think their are quite some of us who have also been abruptly removed for nonsensical reasons, or even no reason, leaving you scratching your head.

I might be alone in this, but I actually quite like the experience of random grouping in some ways, sure you get your bad groups, but you also get some awesome ones, people who I have worked together with to get the fights down with persistance, communication and a sense of humor. Those groups are out there, and I enjoy finding them, because they make my day when I do.

On the funny side, i was in a nice pug the other day, and we got this tank who was just totally arrogant and annoyed us terribly with his attitude, so we voted him out, and waited levelling archeology or similar until we were paired with another tank, we then went on to finish the heroic with no more fuss and a pleasant atmosphere. If more groups just stood up for themselves and refused to tolerate rude behaviour from anyone, but stuck together and wait a little it might give things a little more perspective to these people.

[ara]

3. Cursing.
Be polite, do not caps-shoud or curse at people. DO NOT CALL SOMEONE A NOOB.

I found this a bit ironic . Otherwise a very good post. Blizzard should force everyone queueing in the lfg system to read this.

[iHunt]

Very nice OP, sadly the people who make others instance runs a huge chore right now will continue to do so as they will either not read this, or are arrogant enough to read while nodding sagely, seeing none of their own actions there ^^

Probably the only random I have left recently other than those that disbanded around me was a guild run, where I was the 1 random dps. The instance was in part progress, and they were at the boss in VP thats a big dragon with the changing winds (can't place it's name). We ran in and tryed maybe 10 times but due to them always taking insane damage, but worse their two dps were on about 3K a piece, it was not going to happen. I politely said I was going to bow out, and suggested maybe they run some normals for gear and to practice tactics. They agreed and we went our own way with no animosity, what could have been an unpleasant situation if I had got on my high horse and started picking at things turned out fine.

The vote to kick tool is also being used in an extremely abusive way, I very rarely vote yes on them, but sadly most people just seem to hammer the yes, and some poor dude, sometimes for no reason gets booted. I think their are quite some of us who have also been abruptly removed for nonsensical reasons, or even no reason, leaving you scratching your head.

I might be alone in this, but I actually quite like the experience of random grouping in some ways, sure you get your bad groups, but you also get some awesome ones, people who I have worked together with to get the fights down with persistance, communication and a sense of humor. Those groups are out there, and I enjoy finding them, because they make my day when I do.

On the funny side, i was in a nice pug the other day, and we got this tank who was just totally arrogant and annoyed us terribly with his attitude, so we voted him out, and waited levelling archeology or similar until we were paired with another tank, we then went on to finish the heroic with no more fuss and a pleasant atmosphere. If more groups just stood up for themselves and refused to tolerate rude behaviour from anyone, but stuck together and wait a little it might give things a little more perspective to these people.

I could not agree more with everything you said. Especially the parts about just kicking the arrogant tank and wait a bit for one who does not act like he is indeed on his high horse.

The other part I most relate to at the moment, is the abusing of the kick system. Last week I was in a random and there was another hunter. He emmediately said, please kick this hunter because I don't want to share the loot. I replied with, don't worry you can have what ever drops here because I don't need it. He then replied with that I was a liar and a bad example for all the hunters.

Well since he didn't convince the rest of the party who generally thought he hit his head a tad too hard on a brick wall, I was able to stay.
All goes fine untill we arive at the second boss of black rock caverns. This is a really easy fight if you know what to do. I pulled 16k dps on the boss while jumping out and in to the beam when it was time. Suddenly I get a random fear on me because the shaman didn't put up a tremor totem, which I found out after I was feared, and I ran out of the beam, letting the add get to a 100 stacks and transform.

The hunter, of course it was him because he still thought I would take, ahem 'his loot' started yelling in caps that I did that on purpose and that I should be kicked and banned. And suddenly I got kicked.

And just to the defense of hunters, this guy wasn't a total nut case because he was a hunter. Any person could have behaved this way.

---------- Post added 2010-12-15 at 10:09 AM ----------

I found this a bit ironic . Otherwise a very good post. Blizzard should force everyone queueing in the lfg system to read this.

Ironic it is, well served bruv. Edit: forcing people to read this is like forcing people to read an instruction manual of the remote control for your television....no one does it. But I think a proper IQ test should be implemented in to the game in general. Are you below a 120? Too bad no epixx for you. (<---- that was a joke, don't start raging people)

[Deleted]

Nice post, OP. I agree with most of it.

What bothers me mostly with randoms (or LFG) is that those who wish to chit-chat/be social are the ones who are slacking; too busy typing than hitting the right spells or go the right way.
When someone goes 'were r u guyz from' I mostly do not reply and instead concentrate on the dungeon at hand. I also do not answer such questions as it isn't really their business where I am living and if the person asking is from the same country as I am, they often switch to the country's language and that just... grinds my gears. English, people... The servers are English, the rest of the party might not be Dutch or Swedish or Danish or Polish and it is rude to continue on talking in a language the others do not understand. (This is from the European servers point of view.)

I have no problems with people wanting to be social, but they also have to remember that they are in a dungeon where some of the other party members do not wish to be but have to go through for a certain piece of loot or for a quest objective. These are players that often go 'gogogogogogogogoggogogogo' all the time or type nothing at all and pull before the tank does to keep things going at a fast pace. You won't get anything social out of the rushers aside from 'fu', 'stfu' 'noob' or */wipe*.

If you wish to be social in a LFG party, be sure that you can be social without the whole group or yourself suffering for it. If you are uncertain, then don't... if the group seems light hearted enough and willing to not be so serious and that wiping isn't the end of the world, then go right ahead and have fun. Just don't forget to also type in the right numbers and arrow keys.

[Alex86el]

almost spot-on! nice post.

but i dissagree that dps is as important as a tank and healer. and possibly a CCer.
with these roles u can clear anything, unless it has some sort of "enrage" mechanic after some time.

and dps are indeed annoying ninjapulling and overagroing constantly.
all they can think of is the dps-meter. damned be the day it was invented.

u tell them once, twice, then u just let them die.
since your mana is quite important. especially when everyone has the WotLK-momentum
acting as if they're on coke, fastfastfastgogogoaoeaoeaoepullpullpull.

i also hate it when people dont greet each other and generally dont talk when u talk to them.

and of course the nabs that dont let healers and tanks roll for their dps-spec. thats another story...

[Deleted]

Very nice post and i think you are totally right, but tbh with you, i doubt the pricks you described in your first part of the post read it.
Many people expect that every random heroic group they join everyone knows exactly what to do and has been there before, but lets be realistic, cataclysm has only been out for a week and not everyone has time to spend all day doing heroics and experiencing the fights.

I rather explain tactics and help people understand instead of destroying the group with stupid comments and starting fights.

[Deleted]

Say Hi guys, how are you doing? I'm from holland and you guys?

this you must do even though you are not from holland.. :P to make it more fun ^^

Also I would love having wowcrendor to "talk" this guide in a video. ^^

All in all a good guide.. great bloody job mate..

[Deleted]

Very nice and all, but... I have yet to see how a Hunter can pull something that Tanks these days can't? The first boss back in the Mechanar would have been a good example, but I haven't seen anything such as that around?

[Equilis]

I also have a few things to add.

1) Please DPS, if you see a healer being DPS'ed into the ground, take over the mob('s)!!!! That way we, healers, can focus on the group and not on our selfs to stay alive. Bring the mob('s) to the tank and probably he'll (or she) take over the mob due aoe or other means. I really believe this is a very important thing to do. I see this also from the tank's view, because sometimes he's too far away and mostly busy trying to keep the aggro on the mob's he/she already has. The group healing output will sky rocket and chances to survive will be way higher!

2) As a tank the thing I hate the most is that other pull instead of the tank. Running around without aggro trying to take over 4-5 dispersed mobs is just plain Hell!

3) Focus on healer mobs -> interrupt!!!! This especially is ironically painful for healers to watch and see the party slowly meet the end when they run out of mana while the healer mobs don't...

4) Saying sorry when you do something wrong just makes me happy. So do it! (If you do you'll deserve more of my heals )

5) As a healer, tank comes first, than my own health, then dps. I say this at the start and everyone agrees and I never hear complaints if a dps dies afterwards. This mostly is because of their own fault. If not I really really try to keep them as much alive as all the rest. Still tank = priority nr. 1!

[SolusArtifex]

My main is an arms warrior and I have a mid-70s prot warrior that I level almost exclusively through random dungeons, so I've seen both sides of the coin.

Tanks can be pretty arrogant and unfair, but having been in that position often enough, its easy to see how that kind of attitude can develop. And I don't think it has nearly as much to do with the queue times. It does mean that we have less invested in the group meaning we might be more apt to leave, but I don't feel entitled to having them do it my way. If I think/know that someone is doing things wrong, I'll definitely say so, and I'm perfectly within my rights to leave if I don't like the group, just like everyone else is. Its my right to do so as dps as well.

What causes tanks to feel this way is precisely many of the things the OP listed as no-no's for dps. Don't ninja-pull. Tanks do not appreciate you arbitrarily making their job more difficult. As a tank I like doing my job - keeping mobs more focused on me than anyone else - but I won't tolerate dps (or healers that ninjapull sometimes) making me work harder at my job for no gain aside from perhaps a few seconds less downtime. Lets remember a dead dps because I couldn't corral all the mobs in time is not a net-gain in downtime. Also remember the tanks are keeping track of all mobs, even the ones that are cc'd, because its our job to notice when sap breaks early, regardless of how it happens. Dps SHOULD only be concerned with the current kill target, excepting renewable cc's like sheeps. The easier you can make your tank's already hectic job the more likely he's going to be as calm as the rest of the party in regards to undesirable setbacks.

The chief remedy for most ills, however, is communication. Just be plain about what happened, whose mistake it was, how it can be fixed, and move on. Communicate about which mobs should be killed first. Tell the tank when he's turning his back to mobs and pulling while healer's are oom. Tell the dps when they are hitting all the wrong targets and breaking cc's. I had a dk tank and holy paladin from the same server/guild in a pug on my dps the other day pointing fingers every which way on wipes while pulling entire packs of 5 mobs trying to aoe tank. I finally got fed up with it and just started marking targets, telling people to cc, and everything miraculously got better. Turns out the tank that seemed arrogant was just clueless and trying his best. I wasn't a dick telling him he was failing, I just told him a better way to do things, and asked the other dps to cc. Fixed.

Obviously, as experiences show, some people are defensive and think they're faultless. That happens. We make the best of it. But just because the tank is the puller and instigator of fights doesn't make them the "boss." If you know what you're doing, speak up, and don't be a jackass about it. If you don't know what you're doing, ask for help.

Slightly off-topic but in response to others, I totally refer to group members by class and role (ie. "mage" or "healer") and I don't really find it that rude when people do so with me. I'd rather be concise about what I'm saying and who to than be nice and learn <random dps from another server I'll never see again>'s name for an hour. I use grid and have chat names colored expressly so its easier to differentiate speakers without reading names. I play enough different characters that sometimes when I read my own name in chat I have to double take who they're talking about.