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  1. #1
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    [Mechanics] Hasted DoT's and Clipping (4.0.6)

    SUMMARY
    This is for people to bookmark and quick-reference in the future. Skip this part if you're new to this.

    LEVEL 85, PATCH 4.0.6 Cataclysm

    Haste %'s:
    Dark Intent = 3% Self buff
    Raid = 5% Aura
    Goblins = 1% racial

    1 Haste = 128.05701 Rating

    Negative values in tables below means you get this extra tick automatically with zero haste rating

    IMMOLATE & UA: Haste required for extra ticks:
    1 Tick = 10%
    2 Ticks = 30%
    3 Ticks = 50%
    4 Ticks = 70%
    5 Ticks = 90%


    Note: +2 Ticks should be Destruction's T11 haste goal for the extra Immolate tick giving you +800 dps or more from Conflag.

    Code:
    	Unbuffed	Dark Intent Only	Raid + Dark Intent	Raid + Dark Intent + Goblin
    0.1	1280.5701	870.2903592		219.0526755		90.09471827
    0.3	3841.7103	3356.834243		2587.189707		2434.784849
    0.5	6402.8505	5843.378126		4955.326739		4779.474979
    0.7	8963.9907	8329.92201		7323.463771		7124.16511
    0.9	11525.1309	10816.46589		9691.600803		9468.855241
    
    
    
    e
    CORRUPTION: Haste required for extra ticks:
    1 Tick = 8.334%
    2 Ticks = 25%
    3 Ticks = 41.667%
    4 Ticks = 58.334%
    5 Ticks = 75%


    Code:
    	Unbuffed	Dark Intent Only	Raid + Dark Intent	Raid + Dark Intent + Goblin
    0.08333	1067.141323	663.0779545		21.7075281		-105.2965167
    0.25	3201.42525	2735.198272		1995.155449		1848.612316
    0.41667	5335.708793	4807.318216		3968.603015		3802.520797
    0.58333	7469.992246	6879.438074		5942.050499		5756.429197
    0.75	9604.27575	8951.557981		7915.498029		7710.337643
    
    
    
    e

    AGONY: Haste required for extra ticks:
    1 Tick = 4.167%
    2 Ticks = 12.5%
    3 Ticks = 20.834%
    4 Ticks = 29.167%
    5 Ticks = 37.5%
    6 Ticks = 45.834%
    7 Ticks = 54.167%
    8 Ticks = 62.5%
    9 Ticks = 70.834%
    10 Ticks = 79.167%
    11 Ticks = 87.5%


    Code:
    	Unbuffed	Dark Intent Only	Raid + Dark Intent	Raid + Dark Intent + Goblin
    0.04167	533.6135607	145.0898356		-471.6144899		-593.7341583
    0.125	1600.712625	1181.108345		515.0698044		383.1809846
    0.20834	2667.939746	2217.251181		1501.872506		1360.213362
    0.29167	3734.996168	3253.228289		2488.51737		2337.089466
    0.375	4802.137875	4289.288199		3475.241094		3314.043648
    0.4583	5868.852768	5324.933727		4461.570168		4290.607087
    0.54167	6936.464061	6361.449544		5448.72809		5267.991168
    0.625	8003.563125	7397.468053		6435.412384		6244.906311
    0.70833	9070.700606	8433.523861		7422.132201		7221.856624
    0.79167	10137.85089	9469.592101		8408.863858		8198.818661
    0.875	11204.98838	10505.64791		9395.583674		9175.768974
    
    
    
    e

    Clip all dots except Bane of Agony with between 0.1 and 1 second remaining for maximum dps. Bane of Agony should be allowed to expire before recasting.


    -------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------
    HASTE

    The math on this is quite simple, but the idea is slightly complicated.

    Haste on a DoT does two things. First, it reduces the time between ticks. With 0 Haste, Corruption, UA and Immolate tick every 3 seconds. If you add Haste to the equation, the time between ticks functions just like a spell cast:


    New Spell Cast Time = OLD CAST TIME / (1 + Haste %)

    Example: UA w/ 10% Haste
    3 / 1.1 = 2.73s

    Example: UA w/ 23.5% Haste
    3 / 1.235 = 2.43s


    Very straightforward. Now the slightly complicated part. By shortening the time between ticks, you also shorten the length of the DoT. However, Blizzard has thought of this and provided a solution: at certain values of haste, your dot's gain extra ticks by rounding.

    First, take the hasted tick time and see how many would fit into the full duration of the spell. Let's use 5% on Immolate as an easy example.


    Immolate: 15s duration, 3s ticks
    3s / 1.05 = 2.86s Ticks Hasted
    15s / 2.86s = 5.24 Ticks per Immolate


    5.24 rounds down to 5 ticks, and thus you have a shorter immolate (2.86 x 5 ticks = 14.3s duration instead of 15). When the decimal places reaches X.500000 or greater, you gain an extra tick because it rounds up.

    When do we hit the magic round up number? Easy to find out! Let's say we want 6 ticks. The earliest we could get this is 5.500000 ticks per Immolate.


    15s duration / 5.5 ticks = 2.7272727s hasted ticks
    3s base ticks / 2.7272727s hasted ticks = 10% Haste


    The first magic number is 10%, and repeating this process for 7 ticks (6.5) you get 30%, and it continues at 50%, 70%, 90%, etc.


    This is your gearing goal - hit +1 tick on your dots, or more. If you can set up your gear to push yourself over this number, it is a dps increase.



    -------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------
    CLIPPING

    Clipping used to be a big no-no because it meant you lost 20% or more of the value of your DoT and reduced your uptime as a result. This is no longer the case, and providing you know when to clip it can be a large dps increase.

    The new mechanics are very simple. The current tick (not the dot) has a certain amount of time before it damages the target - this is just added to the end of the new dot. It works best if I give examples, so here you go:

    Assume zero haste to make this easier

    Clipping Corruption at 0s remaining = new 18s Corruption with the first tick occurring at 15s remaining.
    Clipping Corruption at 1s remaining = new 19s Corruption with the first tick occurring at 18s remaining.
    Clipping Corruption at 2s remaining = new 20s Corruption with the first tick occurring at 18s remaining.


    You see how your Corruption grew in length to accommodate the remaining time? This ensures 100% uptime on your dots and provides a large dps increase over letting your dots fall off. The important part is that this only applies to ONE tick. Here's an example:


    Clipping Corruption at 3s remaining = new 18s Corruption with the first tick occurring at 15s remaining.
    Clipping Corruption at 4s remaining = new 19s Corruption with the first tick occurring at 18s remaining.
    Clipping Corruption at 5s remaining = new 20s Corruption with the first tick occurring at 18s remaining.


    We had 2 ticks remaining, but it only brought one back with it. This is to prevent people from casting Corruption 10 times for a 180 second DoT.

    So the moral of the story is: You can clip your DoT's during the last tick and suffer zero dps loss. Any earlier and you're losing a lot of damage.

    Note: Bane of Agony is unique - never clip it because the biggest ticks happen at the end, and you'd lose those.

    ---------- Post added 2010-12-14 at 10:25 AM ----------

    Also a good read for those of you who are visual learners:
    http://cynwise.wordpress.com/2010/10...-in-cataclysm/
    Last edited by gherkin; 2011-02-09 at 04:49 PM.

    R.I.P. YARG

  2. #2
    Great explanation, thanks.

    Due to the changes in rating needed to gain a %, there are massive gaps between the thresholds. I'm a little concerned, as a demo lock, when I should stop stacking haste. I easily got the 580 haste needed for 30%, but I'm actually sat at 1700 at the moment. Obviously this is nowhere near enough for another tick, but my Immolate durations are starting to become quite a bit shorter in relation to the HoG cooldown compared to pre-launch when I had 1200 haste at level 80.

    Is it honestly worth going much over the thresholds? Because since 580 is so low, you can't really help but being way over it in most cases. Haste still scales higher than crit/mastery from my own simcraft result.

  3. #3
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    No, it is not worth going over thresholds intentionally. However, if you are on a path to upgrade your gear and can see yourself reaching the next tick jump then you may want to reconsider your gearing long term.

    For example, the BIS profiles have 2731 Haste Rating when the last +1 tick occured at 2588. This is why haste is so poorly valued by the Scale Factors.

    R.I.P. YARG

  4. #4
    Got a link to a BIS profile? would love to see what people are putting together.

  5. #5
    The chart works perfectly for 15sec dots (immolate & UA) it does not cover corruption however that has different haste caps due to being a 18 sec spell.
    Would it be possible to include the Corruption hastecaps as well ? While immolate is by far the most important one its not the only one!

    example CORRUPTION:

    normal corruption = 6 ticks in 18 sec

    +1 tick extra = 18 sec/6.5 = 2.769
    3sec /2.769= 1.083 (8.3% haste)

    +2 tick extra = 18 /7.5 = 2.4
    3sec/ 2.4 = 1.25 = (25% haste)

    +3 tick extra = 18 /8.5 = 2.1176
    3sec/ 2.117 = 1.416 = (41.66% haste)

    Thus being able to reach 41.66% haste might be a (minor) jump as well if you use corruption in your rotation.. (which you propably should!)


    Also to calculate your effective haste during raids:
    (Haste rating / 128) * 100 = Gear haste
    Real haste = Gear haste * Procs *Raid buff modifiers * Racials

    Example:
    A goblin with 1280 haste on his gear. Having ISF proc up , dark intend up and a shaman in the raid will have

    (1280/128) => 10%
    1.10 * 1.15 (isf proc) * 1.03 (dark intend) * 1.01 (racial) * 1.05 (shaman buff) = 1.381 => 38.1% buff

    this poor goblin will benefit from +2 ticks on immolate and +2 ticks on corruption.. (with a bit more haste he would also get +3 ticks on corruption)

    PS this could also be done with bane of agony (especially when glyphed) to show where it gains extra benefits!

    Haste has several smaller steps that benefit different specs
    Last edited by Blackat; 2010-12-20 at 02:45 PM.

  6. #6
    Backdraft haste cap is also interested for destruction as value of haste rating greatly drop above this margin as i see it. Or maybe it is something else that drops haste from 1.6 scale with 800haste to 0.8 with 1200haste rating.

  7. #7
    The Patient andromalia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randa View Post
    Backdraft haste cap is also interested for destruction as value of haste rating greatly drop above this margin as i see it. Or maybe it is something else that drops haste from 1.6 scale with 800haste to 0.8 with 1200haste rating.
    Backdraft only affects chaos bolt and incinerate.

  8. #8
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    I will be updating this today for Corruption and Bane of Agony. Maybe I'll stumble on a haste plateau for Affliction.

    ---------- Post added 2010-12-21 at 10:27 AM ----------

    Updated. No sweet spots to speak of but if you see yourself at slightly lower haste rating than what is listed here you might want to consider bumping yourself up.

    Remember to always round up.

    R.I.P. YARG

  9. #9
    Is glyph of agony glyphed or unglyphed.

    Glyphing it makes the dot 4sec longer and thus lowers all the haste caps

  10. #10
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Unglyphed because you should be using Lash of Pain w/ Succubus at the moment.

    When this becomes not the case I will revise.

    R.I.P. YARG

  11. #11
    What is the impact of haste on Bane of Doom, if any?

  12. #12
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Not affected by haste.

    R.I.P. YARG

  13. #13
    Grunt
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    Does Agony added ticks scale the dot ? it normally has weak(w) medium(m) strong(s) ticks. so does adding 1 tick mean wwww mmm sss, 2 wwww mmmm sss, or is it all ticks on the end like www mmm ssss, and then 5 strongs? As for any of us... well i am wondering about Fel fire and haunt. I understand ticks are improtant, and i may have missed it in another forum, but working a FF in my rotaion, i dont re-do UA, and haunt takes care corruption.(I am playing Affliction) so pure haste would work for those... correct?

  14. #14
    Hi Gherkin

    A typically excellent post, extremely helpful.

    based on the info listed, i would just like clarification on something.

    Destro build....armoury link - http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lzeebub/simple

    Currently i have 11.14% haste (ally so no racial) which means this gets me to 38% raid buffed.

    If i reduced my haste to 6% (31.8% raid buffed) this would keep the 2 extra ticks from immolate and corruption and allow me to buff my crit.

    The question is, would you be better off to
    a - reduce the 11% haste to 6% by changing my trinket and reforge into crit to hit harder ?
    b - reduce my crit, and get my haste over 41.66% for that extra tick (however this really dont sound or feel right)
    c - try and remain balanced (at least in my head lol) with about 15% crit and 11 - 12% haste ?

    Thanks in advance for the reply

    Beelz

  15. #15
    Imo people that play destruction should not aim for 30% raid buffed haste, because at that level you still are not Backdraft capped and that pushes haste rating into higher tier (same value as hit rating), only when you pass bacdraft cap then haste loses value and becomes lower then crit.

  16. #16
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    @Beelz - You only get extra ticks at 30 and 50% raid buffed, so don't do b. I'd go for a myself.

    @randa - Backdraft cap is 125% Haste. 2.25 / 1.15 / 1.03 / 1.05 / 1.3 = 39.16% Haste Rating from gear, or 5014 Rating which is unattainable in this tier and you are immediately proven wrong by pre-raid scale factors posted on EJ - 1.8 for Hit and 1.04 for Haste.

    If you are talking Bloodlust Backdraft cap, that is only 7% which most people will end up with anyways when they aim for 30% due to simply being a better stat than mastery.

    If you are talking about something else and can prove it, please do so.

    R.I.P. YARG

  17. #17
    I'm mostly going by my scale factor for haste right now, but surely haste has other benefits than giving an extra tick? I'm at 1500 haste and I could quite easily reforge all my haste back to crit because I'm 1k over the threshold, but since simcraft values haste over crit still, I don't see why you would want to go back down to 6% haste, depending on your scale factors.

  18. #18
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    The haste plateaus primarily matter for Destruction, but serve as a guideline for gearing Demonology as well. For example, Haste will drop the duration of Immolate and the cast time of Hand of Guldan, but eventually they will disconnect in such a way as to make it impossible to refresh Immolate with HoG. Thus Haste scales better. At these stages Simcraft will suggest you go haste to ensure a smoother rotation.

    Haste is still the primary stat to go for as Affliction.

    R.I.P. YARG

  19. #19
    Mechagnome
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    Does destro now start a new Immo cast at roughly 2 seconds left on the old one? I just can't stop myself refreshing it any earlier than 1 second left on the old one.

  20. #20
    I get that we're supposed to refresh dots before the final tick save Agony, but...does that include Doom as well? It seems rather counter-intuitive to let it go between 16 and 29 seconds without any ticks.

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