Us poor tanks...

[Alta87]

Am I the only tank around getting sick of us getting blamed for everything? I was just around reading a thread about Tanks stacking Stam gems while they should be stacking avoidance and i came over this.

i dont have more then 4 socket spots, and i would only get a bit above 1% for those. so i ended up with 3x stam and 1x stam/threat stat.
it is simply more beneficial for me to get that extra HP over the 1% parry.

And the healer goes

How so? Do you get enough extra hp for a healer to not heal for long enough to regain mana? The healers running oom has nothing to do with you having 10k less health.

Do you realize how much 1% parry is? Do you even understand how many times that 1 single % of parry is going to see the daylight in a boss fight? And do you REALLY think that 1% is going to save you from going OOM? Ignorance.... How about when YOU go out of mana, we call it YOUR bloody problem? If you can't understand how instancing is a group effort, then atleast stop blaming us for everything.


The healer running out of mana is a a huge pack of things happening ( Healers pool size not big enough, DPS is not good enough, Tank Health/Avoidance not good enough. Bad gear for any of theese is a factor )

Stop blaming the poor tanks for everything. Please.

[Spazzer]

People always have to blame someone else for "their" problems. I would be really grateful for once if people would stop making threads like these. (not directing specifically at this thread) Regardless if it is your fault or not.. just take the blame and move on.

The person that can do that and take the blame regardless of the fault and keeps on trucking and learns from the mistakes is what matters.

~Kretic

[nyyro]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your not looking at avoidance correctly. You do not add additional avoidance from zero, you add the avoidance to your existing avoidance. Avoidance and armor both suffer from diminishing returns because they grow far more powerful as they get higher. As an example lets say you take 100 swings of 100 damage for examples sake, with zero avoidance gaining 1% parry only takes you from 100 to 99 damage, but if you had 50% avoidance and went to 51% avoidance you would go from taking 50 damage to 49 damage a 2% reduction in overall damage. Now imagine its back in the good old days when 75% avoidance was possible, going from 75% to 76% would be a 4% reduction in overall damage taken. Obviously this affects average damage the same with armor. The idea that 1% armor or avoidance is only 1% reduction in overall damage taken is a huge oversight on a lot of the tanks I see.

[kanzei]

you get more effective health from avoidance than from stamina. period.

there is no way around this. your logic is wrong. no matter how much avoidance you have (up to 102.4%), you get more effective health from adding additional avoidance. you should not gem or enchant ANY stam if there is a parry, dodge, or mastery option until you get unhittable. It's just the way it is now, and it's the way it WOULD have been in wotlk if the healers were nerfed the way they are now.

now that they can't make 1 cast and restore 60% of your stam, it REALLY matters that you block, dodge or parry what's coming at you. It was always more effective health to avoid attacks instead of absorbing them, but now it actually MATTERS. You were carried by healers before who had huge crit heals. those days are over.

i know you want easymode gearing back (by the way, if you were a pally or warrior stacking stam in wotlk, you were probably doing it wrong then too). sorry, now you have to learn some math and theorycraft, or you have to deal with me getting your raid invites instead.

harsh but you clearly need to hear it. meant for your own good.

[Deleted]

you get more effective health from avoidance than from stamina. period.

there is no way around this. your logic is wrong. no matter how much avoidance you have (up to 102.4%), you get more effective health from adding additional avoidance. you should not gem or enchant ANY stam if there is a parry, dodge, or mastery option until you get unhittable. It's just the way it is now, and it's the way it WOULD have been in wotlk if the healers were nerfed the way they are now.

now that they can't make 1 cast and restore 60% of your stam, it REALLY matters that you block, dodge or parry what's coming at you. It was always more effective health to avoid attacks instead of absorbing them, but now it actually MATTERS. You were carried by healers before who had huge crit heals. those days are over.

i know you want easymode gearing back (by the way, if you were a pally or warrior stacking stam in wotlk, you were probably doing it wrong then too). sorry, now you have to learn some math and theorycraft, or you have to deal with me getting your raid invites instead.

harsh but you clearly need to hear it. meant for your own good.

Actually, all theorycrafting suggests you to balance stamina and avoidance, stacking only avoidance is just as bad as stacking only stamina.
As for warriors, gemming blues with stamina, yellow with stamina + mastery and ignore red except for meta and socket bonus with 15 stamina and above is still the most viable option.

"Stamina > Mastery > Parry > Dodge.
Stamina is still your best stat, but not to the extent of sacrificing everything else as was the case in WotLK. Conserving healer mana is a very real concern now. Mastery is your best stat for smoothing out incoming physical damage, and also increases rage generation through blocks. Parry provides the same avoidance level as Dodge now, but also procs the Hold the Line talent. Dodge will become more valuable as gear ratings climb higher to reduce diminishing returns losses from over-stacking the other stats." - Elitist Jerks, Protection Warrior thread.

@ OP. Us poor tanks? IMO I think we got the least nerf (or what ever) out of Cataclysm. I only see myself do more damage, good threat, somewhat good survival and least adaptation, considering the play style before (at least for Protection Warriors). DPS seems to be lower and many have been revamped totally and the threads about how harsh it is to heal, seems endless.

[DownButStillOut]

Math maketh sense, I just hate tanks in Cata because evry single one ive encountered rolls on plate dps.

[Holyspartann]

Its actually different from tank to tank based on mastery rating.

The healer is right, you need to not be a dumbass and stack only stam or stam in general. Think of it like this:

Healer with all his heals can heal you for x amount of health. It is a SET number it cannot get larger ONLY less.

Say you have 175k health, he can still only heal you for x amount of health

Say you have 150k health, he can only heal you for x amount of health. But you have more avoidance/mitigation now, so he has to heal you for x - (any mitigated/dodged amount you gained), there ya go, simple explanation...

Theorycrafters is right, you DO need stam. Is a good tank going to have only 100k health and SUPER high mitigation/avoidance and survive. No, but stam is not AS important UNTIL you start getting def/avoidance caps or at least close to them.

Simple rule of thumb:

Socket to the color.

Except red, socket red with a purple with blue+avoidance.

---------- Post added 2010-12-15 at 06:43 AM ----------

Math maketh sense, I just hate tanks in Cata because evry single one ive encountered rolls on plate dps.

The problem is that anything can be changed. Any plate dps with Mastery + (x dps state) can be reforged to a tanking plate gear that is almost as good as a similar tanking piece with more TPS on it. Essentially with regorging the lines between dps and tanking plate has been blurred. Also the fact that expertise helps tanks doesnt help, and mastery helps ALL classes.

Example:

Tank has green chest with

STAM/STR
50 Parry
50 Mastery

DPS HEROIC PLATE CHEST HAS:
STAM/STR
100 (Haste/Expertise/Crit) --> reforged to 40% parry. 60(x stat) and 40 parry, only loss of 30, and Ive found that dps gear has almost exactly the same STAM/STR

It is a major upgrade, even though it is for dps only.

This is ESPECIALLY skewed with Warriors and Pallies since more haste mean more Rage/Holypower
Expertise = more threat and needs to be capped anyways (soft)
Hit = Needs a cap, excess can be reforged on any other gear

Crit is really the only difference between the two so its pretty hard to say what gear is what.
100 Mastery