Bear Avoidance for Heroics

[Paskgotsheal]

This isn't a flame but more of a counter argument:

Can we all agree doing more damage does not increase survivability? no, because through SD it infact does.
Can we all agree that taking slightly more damage for 10 seconds is counter-intuitive to your role? sure
Can we all agree that the benefits for the cat form are not beneficial when you are a bear? no, some fights, like COUNCIL for example, those extra DPS talents are crucial to killing a boss
Can we all agree that increasing the cap of rage/energy does not help you in your role? again, situational, increasing rage might increase threat that might be needed for aoe pull or adds coming out
Can we all agree that no one is arguing that Perseverance is a great tanking talent but more of a "I have points left over and I can either increase my rage cap which I never reach and do a bit more damage while making myself take slightly more damage"? wat? everyone should take preserverance.

Considering those talents only help when you use enrage and berserk, or when you are in cat form. Ask yourself if you want to:
A.) take the path that helps reduce damage even if it is very minor
or
B.) sacrifice a small amount of survivability for an insignificant increase of DPS

Those are the choices people have. Depending on what you plan on doing you have two paths to go down. If you are offtanking then take the feral points for KotJ/PM, if you are tanking by yourself and do not expect to be going cat then go into resto.

This is a discussion forum and no one is really "wrong" when you cover your basis and make your points. Both paths are viable and I spent most of cata going with the KotJ/PM over perseverance, I made the switch from KotJ/PM because going that path did nothing for me except make me do a very small amount of damage when I already compete with DPS classes. It was also great when I offtanked in a raid. When I get gear to increase my survivability to the point where it is not a great concern I will go back to KotJ/PM.

That being said, I'm still the typical 0/32/9 spec lol.

[Turaz]

edit

going to reply

---------- Post added 2010-12-17 at 08:53 AM ----------

Can we all agree doing more damage does not increase survivability? no, because through SD it infact does.
Can we all agree that taking slightly more damage for 10 seconds is counter-intuitive to your role? sure
Can we all agree that the benefits for the cat form are not beneficial when you are a bear? no, some fights, like COUNCIL for example, those extra DPS talents are crucial to killing a boss
Can we all agree that increasing the cap of rage/energy does not help you in your role? again, situational, increasing rage might increase threat that might be needed for aoe pull or adds coming out
Can we all agree that no one is arguing that Perseverance is a great tanking talent but more of a "I have points left over and I can either increase my rage cap which I never reach and do a bit more damage while making myself take slightly more damage"? wat? everyone should take preserverance.

SD is based off your AP, not your damage. If it affected crit then yes it would affect SD but in this case you do not understand how SD works.
"Each time you deal a critical strike while in Bear Form, you have a 50% chance to gain Savage Defense, reducing the damage taken from the next physical attack that strikes you by 35% of your attack power."

Those extra DPS talents only come into effect if you are a cat, or once every minute for 10 seconds. 15% more damage while in bear could make a tiny bit of difference, but raiding is where these 2 paths is situational. When you get better gear as a tank and with that comes more survivability than taking more DMG is the way to go. This early in the expansion you want to live.

Increasing rage that might increase threat, 12 rage is not enough for Mangle/Maul/Swipe etc so it doesn't even give you enough rage for a full ability. Not to mention that if you are managing your rage/threat properly you will never be rage capped during a berserk. Using thorns is more beneficial than the bonuses the 5 talent points give you as a bear, though you should be using Thorns anyways. I guess everyone is different but I NEVER have issues with threat, I am given far to many abilities to prevent myself from losing aggro.

I like having enrage for those 'oh shit' frenzied regen moments. A full duration FR will leave me with full health as long as I have the rage to sustain the heal, sometimes Enrage gives me just the amount of rage I need (and a /cancelaura macro drives the ladies crazy).

Glyph Frenzied regen, that way you don't convert precious rage into useless HP regen. If you have a Healer using the glyph is more valuable than the health regen.

"Increases maximum health by 30%, increases health to 30% (if below that value), and converts up to 10 rage per second into health for 20 sec. Each point of rage is converted into 0.3% of max health." So at most Frenzied regen would give you 3% a second for a total of 60% hp over 20 seconds while taking away 200 rage, during that time you will be rage starved and not be able to use abilities that would increase the chance of a SD proc.

EDIT: I am not pulling this info out of anywhere, this is how I play and this is how I tank in Heroics. I get 0 complaints and no one yells at me or argues with me when they see me play. The same might go for you too, I command without actually telling people to listen to me, they just listen.

[Jogan]

It is not a controversy, it is a discussion. If you want to make statements such as "it's obvious" and "this is the way it is, otherwise you're a moron", you can go troll somewhere else.

Nodata, in the Bear Tank Help thread you posted the following statement :

"Sorry I should have developed: STR is useless at the moment, because all that matters (if you pay attention to your hit rating) is survivability, not threat.

Threat is, as far as heroics and early raiding is concerned, only a gameplay issue. If you play right, and you are reasonably close to hit cap, you will never have a threat problem."

Those are your words, and yet in this thread you are telling people to take a threat talent instead of a mitigation talent. /boggle

I stand by my statement that any bear tank who takes King of the Jungle over Perseverance has no clue what they are doing. The only reason to take a threat talent at all is if you are having problems with threat. It is quite easy to have plenty of threat right now. Groups are wiping because of healers running out of mana or not being able to keep everyone up. Groups are not wiping because bears have poor threat.

And yet you are telling people to take a talent that increases threat and which causes the bear to actually take more damage when used instead of taking a talent that reduces damage taken. Unbelievable.

[Deleted]

You sound like you are a very angry guy with a reading problem.

The argument to take Primal Madness (not King of the Jungle. P-R-I-M-A-L. MAD-NESS) over Perseverance has to do with having a better rage generation. Not threat generation. Rage generation. More specifically, in heroics, when you may be on the low end of rage after a double-mob pull with mangle/lacerate once or twice/ maybe a 2-targets maul and suddenly, some gameplay mistake on your part or a teammate part pulls another roaming pack, you need to reposition, AOE (55 rage needed) the pack, burn some cooldowns like barkskin, maybe frenzied regen to help out, demo roar, and then, 6% damage reduction on casters won't help compared to the additional rage generation.

The debate is Rage generation vs. 6% magical damage reduction. The context that I am arguing favours the rage generation is heroics only.

While I appreciate you referencing my posts from other threads, in the future, I would ask you to be decent enough to relay my point of view in its entirety before you try to flame me to the ground. Otherwise the only thing you'll get is my silence, and the sorry pride associated with having shut down a forum discussion.

[Turaz]

/facepalm

If the debate is Rage Generation vs 6% Magical damage reduction then why is the thread called "Bear avoidance for Heroics"?

Clearly 12 extra rage when you berserk or enrage is not worth 5 points, 5 points would be better spent into a small amount of magical reduction. This is why we mention KotJ because having KotJ is the only way to argue taking PM. 12 rage will not get you an extra Mangle/Maul/Swipe etc. When you go into a pull you Thorns, pop into bear (10 rage) then you pop enrage (20 rage) and if you let it run its course 1 rage every second for 10 seconds for a total of 30-40 rage depending if you cancel the aura or not. In a fight if you pop enrage (I am going by heroics) having this talent will net you average 36 rage during a fight assuming the fight is 3 minutes. If you are having threat issues so bad that you require this 12 extra rage then I think you need to learn how to bear tank. The only valid reason for taking those talents is to do more damage, not more threat. If you want to increase threat then invest into hit/exp.

If your reason is for tanking in heroics in ae packs then thorns alone is more than enough, you run in with your 30-40 rage and thorns, do a swipe then a thrash you will have no problems as long as you keep tabbing lacerate/mangle. Again, I don't say this as theory I say this from experience as a seasoned tank.

edit: I still have Lacerate/Mangle/Swipe/FFF macrod with Maul and a Maul glyph. The only time I can imagine having threat issues is if I go into a pack as bear with no rage and don't pop enrage, and if this happens then it is my fault for not throwing up thorns and popping enrage. Be the better player.

[thonga]

Dont forget Natures Grasp, you can pop that in any form, its a nice escape/multi CC, ofc it requires you to get hit melee, but saved my bear alot.
Killed quite a few melee by doing that also, if they just jump in on my pull xD

[tushn]

edit: I still have Lacerate/Mangle/Swipe/FFF macrod with Maul and a Maul glyph. The only time I can imagine having threat issues is if I go into a pack as bear with no rage and don't pop enrage, and if this happens then it is my fault for not throwing up thorns and popping enrage. Be the better player.

If you play with all that macroed to Maul, you are bound to be rage starved at any second in pretty much every hc. I hardly get any mauls of in correct pulled trash pack, due to almost no hits on me and the few hits i get are small witch gives little rage income. In a raid setting vs bosses, thats a whole different story.

[Turaz]

Like I said, I am only rage starved if I run into a pack with no rage in bear, after I get swipes/thrashes off I sit around 20 rage constantly and if I do dip into no rage and I have a free GCD i'll use FFF. I don't have a problem with rage/threat.

I wouldn't recommend binding Maul to the abilities unless you know you can manage threat/rage properly. I personally do it to do more damage, not necessarily more threat because it's not an issue with me.

[Myrrar]

I know talking about a video game gets your blood boil!!!! But please keep it civil so I don't have to ban you <3

[dombow]

OT: im glad this thread was mad.. I was starting to doubt my abilities a little bit with these heroics ive been attempting. I have attempted 4-5 heroics and have completed.. 1. I thought it was me. I felt I did my research and was giving my gear what I could (even tho ppl thought I was wasting money on heroic replacable gear).

I am at about 142k health, 26-28 percent dodge.. 29-30k armor.. and just thought for sure it was me that was causing the group to fail.

[tehshape]

I have less health, a bit more dodge, and a bit more armor and have not tanked a boss that I have had a problem with in heroics and my guildy heals is a disc preist. (Not saying its bad to be disc, but they did get a bit of a nerf.)

Mechanics > health is what I have noticed in large part. IF things are done right there is no mana, health or killing the boss issues. Avoidance and mitigation help with the staying alive, but are not as necessary as simply doing the fight right.

In heroics and regular dungeons avoidance is really really good agian! Its really amazing what 5% dodge does, i went from 28% to 33% after some gearing and reforeging and my guildy healer asked if I was popping cooldowns nore often lol.

Raids are different though, I think health is more valuable in the raid than mitigation because of the damage bosses dish out is just too large to ignore.

Have not had the time to find out how much mastery is helping me. It seems that SD works better on a boss mob because it take a chunck out of the damage from one of his attacks and one boss attacks less frequently than a pack of mobs that take off SD as soon as it pops. Anyway its my next midigation stat to check and I'm interested to see how it scales with Vengance and trinkets and cooldowns etc...

[Bytch]

Too funny....lol

[HungryHustler]

The argument to take Primal Madness (not King of the Jungle. P-R-I-M-A-L. MAD-NESS) over Perseverance has to do with having a better rage generation. Not threat generation. Rage generation. More specifically, in heroics, when you may be on the low end of rage after a double-mob pull with mangle/lacerate once or twice/ maybe a 2-targets maul and suddenly, some gameplay mistake on your part or a teammate part pulls another roaming pack, you need to reposition, AOE (55 rage needed) the pack, burn some cooldowns like barkskin, maybe frenzied regen to help out, demo roar, and then, 6% damage reduction on casters won't help compared to the additional rage generation.

The debate is Rage generation vs. 6% magical damage reduction. The context that I am arguing favours the rage generation is heroics only.

At no point should you be rage starved in heroics, including pulling extra groups. If you are starved and have to use Enrage, then you are already gaining 30 rage, an extra 12 isn't worth the extra 6% magic damage. The majority of damage is indeed physical but that 6% makes a big difference to your healer.

You need to manage your rage better, not increase its generation at the cost of survivability. I often use Enrage in between pulls, while marking, to prevent rage decay.

[Cortano]

/cast [nomod] Maul

If you are low on rage, just hold down the alt or ctrl key

[Jogan]

The debate is Rage generation vs. 6% magical damage reduction. The context that I am arguing favours the rage generation is heroics only.

I agree with the others that you shouldn't be having rage generation problems. You are probably using maul too much on trash.

[Deleted]

This discussion was about specs and what's best for each case. Not about me not managing rage in heroics. Not about me at all, mind you.

I have no problem - nor have I had - in heroics. I completed all of them in a timely manner (in blue/greens, with Primal Madness btw), and I am pretty sure, from global stats, that our semi-casual guild is ahead in progression of most of the posters here. So thank you loads for your consideration, but I am fine. :]

And on that note, I think I have said all I was going to say in that thread, so feel free to grab a last word if it makes you feel better.

Love,

ND

[headzinthacloudz]

It is not a controversy, it is a discussion. If you want to make statements such as "it's obvious" and "this is the way it is, otherwise you're a moron", you can go troll somewhere else.

Right now, the state of that discussion as far as I'm concerned is: Spec'ing into Primal Madness is situational, and preferable as a routine heroic daily spec. Spec'ing Perseverance is situational also, but should be the default raid-only spec.

I thought Perserverance wasn't so much about the 6% being "great" as much as it was allowing Bear tanks to have the highest spell mitigation of any tank class, period, in the current builds?

I have to admit - while having a more 'active' talent like Enrage getting buffed via KotJ & PM seems like the best idea, I still think 6% spell dmg resistance is more effective at this point in the game (when healing is weakest) than a small amount of rage that isn't really all that necessary (and yes I already know you can cancel the 10% dmg debuff via cancelaura).

[Jogan]

I have no problem - nor have I had - in heroics. I completed all of them in a timely manner (in blue/greens, with Primal Madness btw)

Of course it's possible to complete the heroics if you've taken primal madness over perseverance. If you really wanted to you could tank all the heroics in a full cat spec, but that obviously is not the best way. You are simply leaving it up to your healer to make up for the fact that you didn't take all the damage mitigation talents. This seems unnecessary and illogical to me.

[Snarley]

My personal preference is to drop Primal Madness and 1 pt of stampede in favor of perseverance. Philosophy being that if I'm tanking I want to be mitigating as much as i possibly can from any source of damage (Be it spell, or physical). My job is to tank as a bear not DPS.

Threat is just not an issue right now and neither is rage generation (save up rage on the last mob of a pull or use enrage pre-pull before you take damage). Thats the wonderful thing about being human. If threat is an issue in the future, we can do this thing called "adapt" and change the spec up accordingly

That said, there is one spot so far in cata heroics that I love going bear (as my cat spec with primal madness) and pulling some great DPS with Berserk + Enrage + Barkskin. Heroic Deadmines when you are saving the "Harrington's" from the wolf packs (three wolves in the pack conveniently) is a great spot to do this.

[jearle]

I like having the 6% spell damage reduction and the 81stam 2% spell reduction meta gem for spell heavy fights. Every little bit helps especially when main tanking on long encounters it can all add up.