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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitsurugi View Post
    No. Do not, I repeat DO NOT accept this. There is absolutely no reason for Retribution, which is labeled as a DPS spec, to accept sub-par damage and erratic mechanics and relegate ourselves to a support role.

    /rant


    Okay, now that the red haze has passed, time to be constructive. They (meaning Blizzard) touted that Cataclysm was a new dawn for Retribution, where we'd have all this awesome stuff and be fun and difficult to play. We'd have class mechanics that would separate the good players from the bad, and the Retribution paladin would no longer carry the stigma of being "faceroll" (okay, I think I made that last bit up, but it sounds nice).

    What we have now are class mechanics that are RNG based, so that a "good" player (those that do high DPS in this case) are those with great luck. We still hit stuff when it comes off of it's cooldown, it's just those cooldowns are sometimes noted by shiny buttons or a full Holy Power bar. It's the same damned horse, but they painted stripes on it and calling it a zebra.

    Also, if I see any of that old "you were OP in 3.0 so you deserve this" bulls*** in this thread, I will bring the hammer down.
    First, I will agree with the OP. Ret does feel more like a support role than a "pure" dps class. The thing is, though, ret paladins are not a pure dps class. Blizzard has stated on many occasions that "pure" dps classes will almost always beat out the "multi-roll" classes. It's a fact. If you can't handle that, reroll a "pure" dps class. If you can, then welcome to Cataclysm, we are glad to have you.

    Second, and I will most certainly accept and cherish a ban for this, should a moderator act like this? Is this alright with the powers-that-be of MMO-Champion? I certainly hope not, because if so, these forum users will take a cue from this and make it worse for other good moderators. In my opinion, this guy needs to be outed from his responsibility.
    A true Patriot fights for their country, not for their government.

  2. #22
    Ret seems to be doing great so far. They do competitive dps while offering the paladin toolbox.

    Nothing to complain about :3 Those ret heals have saved my life on several occasions
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerias View Post
    Go play spam-tard Glad spec if you want to act like your keyboard is a piano. Arms finally has its soul back.

  3. #23
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    First, I will agree with the OP. Ret does feel more like a support role than a "pure" dps class. The thing is, though, ret paladins are not a pure dps class. Blizzard has stated on many occasions that "pure" dps classes will almost always beat out the "multi-roll" classes. It's a fact. If you can't handle that, reroll a "pure" dps class. If you can, then welcome to Cataclysm, we are glad to have you.
    I understand we aren't a pure DPS spec. I gladly use what utility I have to help my group. However, we still need to be at least on a level a step down from the pure specs. I consistently see people talking about having to fight to stay above tank DPS in fights. That's not what should happen with a DPS spec, regardless of whether or not they're a hybrid.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    Second, and I will most certainly accept and cherish a ban for this, should a moderator act like this? Is this alright with the powers-that-be of MMO-Champion? I certainly hope not, because if so, these forum users will take a cue from this and make it worse for other good moderators. In my opinion, this guy needs to be outed from his responsibility.
    If you have problems with the way I act, please send me a PM about it. I'd be happy to discuss it with you. However, this is most certainly waaaay off-topic and I don't want to derail the thread, so please don't bring it up again.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    First, I will agree with the OP. Ret does feel more like a support role than a "pure" dps class. The thing is, though, ret paladins are not a pure dps class. Blizzard has stated on many occasions that "pure" dps classes will almost always beat out the "multi-roll" classes. It's a fact. If you can't handle that, reroll a "pure" dps class. If you can, then welcome to Cataclysm, we are glad to have you.

    Second, and I will most certainly accept and cherish a ban for this, should a moderator act like this? Is this alright with the powers-that-be of MMO-Champion? I certainly hope not, because if so, these forum users will take a cue from this and make it worse for other good moderators. In my opinion, this guy needs to be outed from his responsibility.
    Cataclysm has not improved not significantly modified our ability to support the group. We retain a similar set of tools to heal, crowd control, and buff. What has changed between WoTLK and Cataclysm is our ability to deal consistent, and sufficient DPS. I accept, as do others, that we sacrifice some DPS for all of the utility we provide - that's great. But, our utility has not been added to, nor improved upon in compensation for the loss of DPS, and it's illogical to suddenly accept lesser melee ability on account of our utility. It's a reasonable expectation to have that Retribution Paladins be able to perform on par with the other "non-pure" melee DPS classes out there. As it stands, the Retribution Paladin of today is not what we were promised, or made to expect.

    The comments the moderator condemned were those of unintelligent, and non-constructive nature. If your only intention in posting is to provide an unsubstantiated, generalized opposition for a thoughtful argument from another player, then I am in full support of punishment.
    Last edited by Nesemar; 2010-12-16 at 08:05 PM.

  5. #25
    Brewmaster link064's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    First, I will agree with the OP. Ret does feel more like a support role than a "pure" dps class. The thing is, though, ret paladins are not a pure dps class. Blizzard has stated on many occasions that "pure" dps classes will almost always beat out the "multi-roll" classes. It's a fact. If you can't handle that, reroll a "pure" dps class. If you can, then welcome to Cataclysm, we are glad to have you.
    First, I think you're confusing terms here. "Support role" and "pure dps" are two totally different measures. "Support role" is like playing a bard: you don't do a whole lot of good other than making everyone around you look good. "Pure dps" is the counter-part to "hybrid dps" which, as a design philosophy, has been dead for quite some time now.
    Second, even under the old pure > hybrid system, pures should not, by default, do more damage than hybrids. The rule of thumb was something like "with identical/equivalent gear, with equal skill levels, in an encounter that favors neither, and with equal opportunity to dps, the pure dps would do more dps than a hybrid by a marginal amount". Anything anyone has ever told you that differs from this is wrong and that person is fooling you and likely themselves. Even still, that design philosophy no longer exists and discussing it is rather moot.


    OT: I feel like ret is lacking some oomph, particularly in the form of TV. Even before hitting level cap, TV hits like a wet noodle which is sad considering it is the key part of being ret (as in, you get it at level 10). I've got multiple paladin's across several level sets (what can I say, I'm an altoholic) and TV never seems to feel that important. Most of the time, I feel like WoG is a better use of my HP than TV while leveling since it gives me a greater uptime between mob pulls. TV needs to be a more core part of the rotation, a true finisher instead of a "oh look, it hit harder than crusader strike this time, yay!"
    As for feeling "support-y", I'm okay with that. Ret has an amazing arsenal of tools to benefit the entire group. I don't think this diminishes the class at all. Despite all this, I still agree with Hitsurugi in that we shouldn't accept sub-par dps and wonky, clashing mechanics. Ret needs some serious work to be considered complete, and I feel we are still in beta testing for the spec. Hopefully they can get things ironed out before ret gets relegated back to 'lolret'.

  6. #26
    I honestly dont know about Ret anymore.
    My friend was complaining that ret was nowhere near how it should be, and once he got to 85 and got geared up just a tad I think he was pulling respectable dps.

    With that said, I can agree that I found prot to be WAY easier to level up with (even though at 85 in heroics gear, I still cant go out of a pull with 3 or so mobs without popping a cooldown. Ret just was lacking. I was afraid of pulling 2 mobs and in Twilight Highlands, I died a bunch because of it.

    Being a pure dps class or not, it doesnt really matter. Blizzard said they were only supposed to be some kind of 5% inc dps, and I am sure that will not show up when playing against a skilled ret pve vs a pure dps class that is alright with mechanics of the class / rotation / gearing / etc.

    ---------- Post added 2010-12-16 at 01:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by link064 View Post
    OT: Most of the time, I feel like WoG is a better use of my HP than TV while leveling since it gives me a greater uptime between mob pulls.
    It is, atleast for me, when leveling. You try "tanking" 2 adds as ret and youll feel just as squish as a damn clothie haha.
    Quote Originally Posted by xannax2780 View Post
    It's called balancing.
    Maybe you should try balancing the large cup of QQ in your left hand with a big mug of STFU in your right.
    Just sayn'

  7. #27
    I don't mind if ret is a little behind hunter/lock/mage/rogue. To my thinking, the pure DPS classes should do more damage than the hybrids, since they lose so much versatility - even within the dps spec. When rets are way behind ele shammies, fury warriors, etc. that's a bigger problem.

  8. #28
    Epic! Swampmoose's Avatar
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    Paladins were OP in 3.0. Strike them down with the bat of nerf.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...t&n=Swampmoose

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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liagala View Post
    ^^ This. I don't think we're 100% broken, but we're certainly not good either.
    Ret isn't broken. However, it certainly isn't in an enviable position either. RNG is a very bad mechanic for any spec. Other classes do have it, yes...but not to the same degree and even then, its often of the "refresh CD" type which means RNG simply brings forward a proc that would come in a few seconds. Shakes up the rotation, ensures you're paying attention and yet doesn't leave you at the mercy of RNG.

    Other problems are a poorly focussed tree, mechanics which clash, talents and abilities which are weak and poor, the atrocious implementation of HP - seriously, it may not even exist for all the impact it really has - and the lack of the basic toolset it needs.

    Ret acts as a filler class...it ahs plenty of tools....but not enought to fill any role independently. It relies on other classes to make upt he difference, and then uses its tools to make them BETTER. As people said....a support class. Unfortuantely, support classes do really poorly because it is usually, for the majority of the time, better to bring along a proper spec.

    Its why the support role has never worked in the past. If, as a ret, you find yourself needing to heal for example...then your group needs a healer.

    The spec needs a reworking. It needs to be given the proper tools for the jobs it must fill....that means HP needs to be better integrated, it means a stance mechanic to enforce the role mentality, it may even mean redesigning HP to give it some needed garnularity or making with work with mana. And it needs a properly designed and implemented tree.

    Support roles, by design, need to be carried. Thats why they don't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    First, I will agree with the OP. Ret does feel more like a support role than a "pure" dps class. The thing is, though, ret paladins are not a pure dps class.
    They're hybrid DPS. Or supposedly so. That too, is not a support role.

    Second, and I will most certainly accept and cherish a ban for this, should a moderator act like this? Is this alright with the powers-that-be of MMO-Champion? I certainly hope not, because if so, these forum users will take a cue from this and make it worse for other good moderators. In my opinion, this guy needs to be outed from his responsibility.
    Assuming you meant the part you highlighted in red...he gave a "friendly warning" on what many trolls woudl deem a good response in the hope that he wouldn't have to ban anyone.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2010-12-16 at 08:47 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    First, I will agree with the OP. Ret does feel more like a support role than a "pure" dps class. The thing is, though, ret paladins are not a pure dps class. Blizzard has stated on many occasions that "pure" dps classes will almost always beat out the "multi-roll" classes. It's a fact. If you can't handle that, reroll a "pure" dps class. If you can, then welcome to Cataclysm, we are glad to have you.

    Second, and I will most certainly accept and cherish a ban for this, should a moderator act like this? Is this alright with the powers-that-be of MMO-Champion? I certainly hope not, because if so, these forum users will take a cue from this and make it worse for other good moderators. In my opinion, this guy needs to be outed from his responsibility.
    A moderator tried to do a friendly public warning before actually banning/warning people for real, and the first thing you do is ... flame him in public and go all emo asking him to be demoted?

    ... Seriously?

    Chill down, have a kitten.

  11. #31
    ^ It's like seeing the Time Lost Proto-Drake

    And seriously, people need to understand that a Hybrid DPS class should be doing damage that's at least on par with the other hybrids. Currently we Retadins are suffering needlessly.

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    First, I will agree with the OP. Ret does feel more like a support role than a "pure" dps class. The thing is, though, ret paladins are not a pure dps class. Blizzard has stated on many occasions that "pure" dps classes will almost always beat out the "multi-roll" classes. It's a fact. If you can't handle that, reroll a "pure" dps class. If you can, then welcome to Cataclysm, we are glad to have you.
    You are correct about the "pure dps" part of your statement, but there-in lies the overall flaw with your post. Who is doing the most damage right now? Who was doing the most damage in Wrath of the Lich King. Feral druids are neigh untouchable right now. Yup, they're a hybrid. Fury warriors were questionably the best damage dealers in Icecrown Citadel. Yup, another hybrid. Add balanced druids and elemental shaman to the list of hybrids performing at a very high level right now and your statement is without merit.

    DPS specs are not being separated by pure and hybrid. Furthermore, DPS specs are nowhere near equal amongst pures or amongst hybrids. To bring "pure vs hybrid" into this discussion was completely pointless because you missed the entire point.

    ---------- Post added 2010-12-16 at 08:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampmoose View Post
    Paladins were OP in 3.0. Strike them down with the bat of nerf.
    I can't believe this user was banned. Swampmoose is a ret paladin. His post was made in jest and was likely adding to the "red" comment from Hitsurugi. Context being difficult to detect in text is exactly what happened here. Any moderator that has spent at least two months on these boards knows exactly who Swampmoose is and what he meant by his comment. He was neither trolling, nor fueling.

    This shouldn't even have to make it to the appeal process because there is no justification for his ban at all. I suppose this is what happens when posters with no posting experience or familiarity with these boards are promoted to moderator or when moderators go patrolling forums that they haven't participated in before.
    Last edited by Prentice; 2010-12-16 at 09:02 PM.

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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice View Post
    I can't believe this user was banned. Swampmoose is a ret paladin. His post was made in jest and was likely adding to the "red" comment from Hitsurugi. Context being difficult to detect in text is exactly what happened here. Any moderator that has spent at least two months on these boards knows exactly who Swampmoose is and what he meant by his comment. He was neither trolling, nor fueling.

    This shouldn't even have to make it to the appeal process because there is no justification for his ban at all. I suppose this is what happens when posters with no posting experience or familiarity with these boards are promoted to moderator or when moderators go patrolling forums that they haven't participated in before.
    Just because you know that someone was kidding means that everyone does. Forums are a public place, that kind of posts is exactly how shit hits the fan and derails a perfectly good thread (which is already the case right now).

    I would probably have kicked Hitsurugi's ass for not infracting in the first place just because the guy is a high count poster, it doesn't give you extra rights to troll and add "just kidding.". It doesn't work for Bart Simpson, and it doesn't work on my forums.

    And if you're wondering, no, it's still not ok to try to start a public troll against moderators, and this is the last post about this. If you have a problem with a moderator, send me a PM, if you're on a power trip and are just trying to fuck with my mods, I will kick your ass.

  14. #34
    Pit Lord iktankniet's Avatar
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    Ok, lets not discuss forum moderation here. Topic is about i dont think rets a dps spec anymore
    Lets keep it to that.

    Thanks

    just a little heads up, next posts about comments on modding will be deleted. PM's are the way to go

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer Renagade Raven's Avatar
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    On topic, yeah Ret is a support class. It is also a Dps class =]
    I mean, it can Dps as well as the next Dpser (at least, when they balance this game properly they will) but their talents allow them to throw the occasional heal on another player, or being a Paladin, give them a Blessing of Freedom, Protection, etc. But then they have always been able to do so. Their talents are supportive but I don't think that means Blizzard tries to compensate by taking away some of their Dps capabilities, rather they are trying to make every class capable of providing some Utility.
    Last edited by iktankniet; 2010-12-16 at 09:38 PM.
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  16. #36
    Pit Lord iktankniet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renagade Raven View Post
    On topic, yeah Ret is a support class. It is also a Dps class =]
    I mean, it can Dps as well as the next Dpser (at least, when they balance this game properly they will) but their talents allow them to throw the occasional heal on another player, or being a Paladin, give them a Blessing of Freedom, Protection, etc. But then they have always been able to do so. Their talents are supportive but I don't think that means Blizzard tries to compensate by taking away some of their Dps capabilities, rather they are trying to make every class capable of providing some Utility.
    every class has some utility to bring now. That cannot be the reason why retribution is being hold back. I agree that i like a unique dps class, not a copy and that it's hard to create/balance it. But sometimes its better to steal an idea then create a bad made up version.

  17. #37
    High Overlord Soundeffects's Avatar
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    if you've played a paladin or ret for awhile you would realize that they have taken a lot of our support away. Just because we have the ability to heal doesn't mean we need to top ppl off when that's the healers job. I don't think people realize that they won't always be at 100% hp and need to think while playing. What I mean by that is for them to stop taking dmg that is not needed then expect a ret to monitor their hp because somebody can't move out of fire.

    As for ret being a support class it is, but not nearly what it used to be. Heck I can't even sac a tank on a raid boss because our bubble is 8 second and our sac is 12. Flash of light is a joke to try to use as ret, don't have imp might, aura mastery, art of war heals, sacred shiled, and others that made us an actual support class.

    The only clutch thing I've done as a support is tank a boss or 2 which any melee class can do for awhile and loh the tank. Really I think loh and the ocassional bop or freedom is the only support that is actually unique.

  18. #38
    been a ret pally for a few years...and i always thought it was great...i could top the charts and i always felt i played it better than most always did more damage and dps than people with a much higher gearscore...i used to like the fact i could do more than just dps back in wrath...i could pull adds to me i could survive by myself if need be could cleanse myself bubble mitigate and still do awesome dps...now tho...i dont even wanna be bothered with ret...if i wanted to play a rogue i would have rolled a rogue...we may still offer support to the group but like others have said support means ur being carried...much better to bring another pure dps...maybe if our support included a 15% damage buff or speed buff or something anything that brought everyone's dps and heals up enough to make a difference, otherwise theres no real reason to bring a ret into a group...i think blizz is trying too hard to get away from having to have a certain class in a raid like before...like having a boomkin for crit buff...which is y mages, hunters and shammy all have a bloodlust now...but it seems like they want ret's to be the class that u should have in a raid but give them nothing worthwhile to make it so

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice View Post
    Or........
    5. The RNG gods looked down upon you favorably and granted you all the bells and whistles that you should never come to expect during any other combat sequence. Thank them and pray for more of the same.
    Welcome to the world of Moonkin DPS, Wrath version. We got molested by the RNG gods every week and prayed they used lube. Occasionally we got candy :P
    Proud member of WoW Addicts Anonymous since 2010.
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  20. #40
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phovos View Post
    Ret seems to be doing great so far. They do competitive dps while offering the paladin toolbox.

    Nothing to complain about :3 Those ret heals have saved my life on several occasions
    You're just lucky enough to be raiding with me.

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