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  1. #81
    such a shame no one in my guild will listen to posts like this one. we have 4 warlocks each trading with each other and refused to buff SPs, DKs, Druids, etc etc.

    it's really starting to get annoying seeing as said classes are top dps and they'd be a lot higher if it wasn't for the greedy warlocks. gg.

  2. #82
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Send them to me and if it is within my power I will crotch punch them.

    R.I.P. YARG

  3. #83
    This has been a very helpful reference for me. Thanks gherkin.

  4. #84
    1 more known flaw to add is that almost every class can gear (especially with reforging) based around having the static 3% Haste. This could have a pretty big effect if, for example, a Shadow Priest needs the 3% Haste to reach an extra DOT tick.

    Also, this is extremely relative but in AoE fights where Combustion can do crazy damage its probably best to give it to a Fire Mage over any class.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin View Post
    If you would be able to provide a better action list I would be happy to oblige. As for "finished", none of the classes will ever be "finished" but SimCraft will constantly revise as we get more information about the game. Based on projected numbers, it's as close as it can be without more people looking at it.
    I'm working on a better action list but right away I would say, take out the faerie fire lines (just about always covered by someone else and not worth the time to cast for us) and the inny lines (any BiS boomkin is just about never going to need their inny unless they give it to a healer and i've been finding that occurance less and less)

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by pieki View Post
    add warlocks to the list as we can do the wrath mage "but if we share it we get 6% haste!"

    ohh and im never ever ever ever going to use it on a mage. thay didnt wanner FM me when i hit them in the head whith crit scaling last exp.

    but it looks flawed not to add locks to the list when you got holy paladins
    The difference is double fm'ing mage was categorically the best rdps choice

    Whereas double di'ing locks isnt

  7. #87
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trunk Munky View Post
    1 more known flaw to add is that almost every class can gear (especially with reforging) based around having the static 3% Haste. This could have a pretty big effect if, for example, a Shadow Priest needs the 3% Haste to reach an extra DOT tick.

    Also, this is extremely relative but in AoE fights where Combustion can do crazy damage its probably best to give it to a Fire Mage over any class.
    Destruction is the only class spec I know of that specifically desires haste more at certain points than others. Shadow Priests always want haste, going over a plateau isn't going to change that, but it will for Destruction locks (at which point they will want Crit/Mastery for a while until their base gear goes up some more)

    R.I.P. YARG

  8. #88
    Stood in the Fire andromalia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trunk Munky View Post
    1 more known flaw to add is that almost every class can gear (especially with reforging) based around having the static 3% Haste. This could have a pretty big effect if, for example, a Shadow Priest needs the 3% Haste to reach an extra DOT tick.

    Also, this is extremely relative but in AoE fights where Combustion can do crazy damage its probably best to give it to a Fire Mage over any class.
    Actually boomkin is a clear winner based on my testing on heroic Maloriak last night. Without DI (it was on resto druid), I was absolutely crushing everyone as demonology. With DI (moved to boomkin), the boomkin was actually handing it to me. All the AE ticking from both the boomkin and warlock put both at a solid 3 stacks the entire duration of the AoE.

  9. #89
    i think i speak for all locks here gherkin in saying u are amazing dude

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicc View Post
    The difference is double fm'ing mage was categorically the best rdps choice

    Whereas double di'ing locks isnt
    no most other classes gave more damage whith the FM then arcane mages swapping it.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin View Post
    Destruction is the only class spec I know of that specifically desires haste more at certain points than others. Shadow Priests always want haste, going over a plateau isn't going to change that, but it will for Destruction locks (at which point they will want Crit/Mastery for a while until their base gear goes up some more)
    While it may not be that the Haste becomes useless to a particular class after reaching that extra tick/Haste cap you cannot deny it has an effect on the worth of the buff. If 2 people were neck-in-neck to receive the buff, the fact that one of the two will reach an extra tick/Haste cap with the 3% could be the deciding factor on who to give it to, and is one worth considering.

    Quote Originally Posted by andromalia View Post
    Actually boomkin is a clear winner based on my testing on heroic Maloriak last night. Without DI (it was on resto druid), I was absolutely crushing everyone as demonology. With DI (moved to boomkin), the boomkin was actually handing it to me. All the AE ticking from both the boomkin and warlock put both at a solid 3 stacks the entire duration of the AoE.
    Obviously it varies from guild to guild but Maloriak on WoL is 'Demo Lock, Demo Lock, Demo Lock... *Fire Mage*, Demo Lock...' so I fail to see how what happens in your particular guild proves the 'clear winner' either way.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by pieki View Post
    no most other classes gave more damage whith the FM then arcane mages swapping it.
    Except no one worth their salt played arcane.

  13. #93
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicc View Post
    Except no one worth their salt played arcane.
    Except this was TOC and pre-heroic ICC where everyone and their dog played arcane until they got enough gear for Fire to be better.

    R.I.P. YARG

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin View Post
    Except this was TOC and pre-heroic ICC where everyone and their dog played arcane until they got enough gear for Fire to be better.
    And with the higher gear too, for single target damage (Fire only beat it on multi-target damage. Lots of fights have multitarget damage, but sadly the average wow player didn't and doesn't care about that.)
    And the average wow player certainly got far in raids in wotlk

    That being said, I knew a lot of people who had an arc spec and a fire spec, and would change depending on boss (had the fire spec for LK)

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-13 at 03:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by pieki View Post
    no most other classes gave more damage whith the FM then arcane mages swapping it.
    I think at some point there was some fire mage buffing an arc mage, and when I whispered him to buff the boomkin, he said the arc mage wouldn't give it to him if he did. "I'll say it on vent, so he can't complain its your fault"
    "by the way, x, put your focus magic on y, its a dps boost for the raid"
    *notice the arc mage takes focus magic off the fire mage*

    *Tell arc mage to PUT FOCUS MAGIC BACK ON X OR GET OUT OF THE RAID, RAIDING AS A DPS IS ALL ABOUT OPTIMISATION NOT SELFISH RIDICULOUS IN-CLASS AGREEMENTS*

    Yea, that was fun

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-13 at 03:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by andromalia View Post
    Actually boomkin is a clear winner based on my testing on heroic Maloriak last night. Without DI (it was on resto druid), I was absolutely crushing everyone as demonology. With DI (moved to boomkin), the boomkin was actually handing it to me. All the AE ticking from both the boomkin and warlock put both at a solid 3 stacks the entire duration of the AoE.
    Maloriak is a very special case, essentially boomkins are best off getting a rotation going which consists entirely of sunfire and AoE on that fight (Or so I've heard from many)

    Also, in regards to your case though, of course raid dps will go up if you put it on the boomkin instead of a resto druid, and you didn't actually compare it to a fire mage in that fight at all, so I'm not sure how you can say boomkins are a clear winner on that
    Last edited by wasniahC; 2011-01-13 at 03:23 AM.

  15. #95
    THe priority order in the OP is correct. But saying that u should put it on healers when progressing, is just outright wrong.

    DI should be on healers if its an AoE HEAVY healing fight (Magmaw, Chimaeron), but on fights where AoE healing matters less, it should go on a the dps imo. If you are wiping on, let's say Golem Council or Theralion and Valiona because your raid members died, DI on the healers wouldn't help you, as the dead guys either failed, or the healers failed. More powerful hots wont help u if u heal too late or just heal the wrong targets.

    It's better to increase your raid dps, and thus killing the boss faster, than increasing the SP of your healers hots.

    So imo, DI should go on your dps classes, unless the boss fights requires some retarded apeshit AoE carpet healing.

    1 more known flaw to add is that almost every class can gear (especially with reforging) based around having the static 3% Haste. This could have a pretty big effect if, for example, a Shadow Priest needs the 3% Haste to reach an extra DOT tick.
    Shadow Priests (and all other dot classes) benefit from every single point of haste, not just when u get an additional tick. Haste decreases the interval between your ticks all the time, not just when u get to the "one more tick treshold". When you recast your dots, your goal is to land the spell just when the dot is about to expire, thus refreshing the duration of the DoT, BUT NOT RESETTING THE TICK INTERVAL. The number of ticks you get from your initial 24sec DoT, matters just as much as the amount of Int you have on your Rogue.
    Last edited by ThrashMetalFtw; 2011-01-13 at 12:51 PM.
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  16. #96
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    It's an arguable point, and I don't disagree or agree. It's good for more aoe healing, but you could also say that if by chance that one hot saved someone from dying, you are increasing their experience of the fight instead of just having someone on the floor too soon and calling for a wipe.

    I'm not going to argue the value of putting it on a dps, as that is subjective. For example, granting a dps 2500 dps is 750k over a 5 minute fight is around 1% of a bosses hp and based on the discussions on this board happens all the time. However, 5 people who lived 30 seconds longer each due to increased healing (but still died in the end because they're dumb) that did 15k while alive is 2,250k.

    It's entirely situational, and considering healing is already pretty difficult in many cases I would want to make the lives easier for the people enabling me to raid in the first place. We have lots of tanks and dps :P
    Last edited by gherkin; 2011-01-13 at 07:55 PM.

    R.I.P. YARG

  17. #97
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    Great Guide.thanks

  18. #98
    I think the point that a lot of people are ignoring and therefore basing arguable points on is that this isn't Wrath anymore, this is Cataclysm. The fights so far contain a lot of mechanics and technicalities that might make DI far favorable on one class or another, and you also must take into consideration what you ACTUALLY want to get out of DI when you decide who to place it on. The player is going to make buffing them more favorable than maybe one that "ranks" higher on a chart. Don't over-emphasize on simcrafting and theorycrafting, you MUST see it first hand in order to know what works. Simply relying on someone elses "guide"(no offense intended Gherk) is not going to make your number's jump just because you used it on this one person this one fight. Experiment with it, use it on a carrying dps(Mages on Halfus would be a good idea) due to how it is going to benefit a raid in it's entirety, if the heals are going to be pressured most of the fight, you're damn right a DI on a Resto druid is a good idea, not to mention that resto druid(a smart one) will be pre-proccing DI for you, giving you an upper hand in the fight.

    However, great job with this Gherkin, very solid guide to tweak one's DPS with. Always nice to have some #'s to make people shutup.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    Shadow Priests (and all other dot classes) benefit from every single point of haste, not just when u get an additional tick. Haste decreases the interval between your ticks all the time, not just when u get to the "one more tick treshold". When you recast your dots, your goal is to land the spell just when the dot is about to expire, thus refreshing the duration of the DoT, BUT NOT RESETTING THE TICK INTERVAL. The number of ticks you get from your initial 24sec DoT, matters just as much as the amount of Int you have on your Rogue.
    Nonsense. Saying classes "benefit from every single point of haste" means fuck all, really. So what if, for example, a Fire Mage always wants haste if a Hunter simply doesn't have the gear to be Haste-capped but with the extra 3% he will, and thus has an abnormally larger scale factor for it? If, ignoring this 1 fact, they were neck-in-neck to receive the buff then this would be the decider to give it to him.

    Aside from this, there are many fights where its not simply a case of always refreshing DOTs and you are in fact tab-dotting adds that you won't renew DOTs on, so yes, Haste thresholds matter more than you think. Combustion on Halfus Wyrmbreaker is a perfect example of this and if you put a Mage over the threshold where, say, under Heroism they gain an extra tick on 2 of their DOTs then this is a huge damage boost. I'm not saying classes would deliberately reforge away their Haste for guaranteed Dark Intent - I'm saying they might be limited by the gear they have and thus DI would be more valuable to them.

  20. #100
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Yes, it's in here somewhere. 3% haste stacks, 9% dot damage does not. Therefore the two warlocks would have a combined 12% haste and 18% dot damage, but if you cast it on non warlocks, the 4 players would have a combined 12% haste (less per player) but a 36% dot/hot increase, which is much better for the raid.

    R.I.P. YARG

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