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  1. #161
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    @Networkz: Yeah, you're not going to out-"gain" a semi-competant shadow priest, but you will out-"gain" some classes and terribly geared players. I will have an official "When it's appropriate" list up shortly.

    Note that this would only apply to Destruction warlocks who can get the +2 Immolate tick as a result of stacking. It is ~never~ appropriate for a Demo or Affl Lock to do this. The gain is simply non-existent in these two cases.

    ---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 11:06 AM ----------

    The Warlock Circle Jerk, and when its appropriate:

    First off, it is never appropriate for an Affliction or Demonology Warlock to receive it from another Warlock. The gains simply are not there. The only thing you gain in this situation is 3% Haste for an approximate 600 dps. That doesn't even register on the gains any other class or healer would have. The only situation this might work is 2 Paladin Healers, 2 Death Knight Tanks, 4 Warriors and 2 Warlocks, but if you joined this raid then God have mercy on your soul shards.


    The conditions for this situation are very precise:

    Two Destruction warlocks who, with 1 Dark Intent each, sit at exactly 26.2233% Haste raid buffed. This means that with a second Dark Intent they will be at 30.01% for the extra Immolate tick and Conflagrate damage, with zero extra haste wasted due to passing this "soft cap". The .01 is important because sometimes Blizzard rounds funny, and we want to play it safe.

    VS

    Two Destruction Warlocks + Any Two Other Raiders


    26.2233% / 3% DI / 5% Raid Aura = 16.71% from gear = 2140 Rating.

    First, lets run the profile through SimCraft, adjusted to have 2140 Haste Rating.
    No DI: 23178
    1 DI: 24272
    Copy paste of SimCraft stats for Haste: Spell Haste 26.22% Raid Buffed, 2140 Gear Rating

    Now lets give them a second DI (increase spell haste rating to 2590 - the 30.01% haste cap.)
    New DPS: 25294

    Gain: 1022 DPS.

    That's fairly substantial, lets add it all up:
    Destruction Warlock 1 Gain from First DI: 1094
    Destruction Warlock 1 Gain from Second DI: 1022 (Haste Only)
    Destruction Warlock 2 Gain from First DI: 1094
    Destruction Warlock 2 Gain from Second DI: 1022 (Haste Only)

    Raid DPS gain: 4232

    Look at the Destruction ranking charts for your particular guild.
    Take the two highest ranked classes you have and add them together.
    Is the total above 4232?

    YES: Circle jerking is bad
    NO: Enjoy the self love

    The question will remain: does this apply to your guild and your players? Most of the time, yes. Players of similar skill levels tend to play together, but not always. However, I would like to make one thing very clear: a badly played Shadow Priest will still equal if not out-perform Dual Destruction. This is because they are so far ahead of everyone else in terms of the 9% buff. If your Priest is so bad that Dual Destruction is better, then I encourage you to rethink inviting this person to your raid in the first place.

    ---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 11:08 AM ----------

    One thing to note: I used 2590 Haste Rating instead of 2588 because SimCraft did something very peculiar - the difference of those two points registered a gap of 400 dps.
    Last edited by gherkin; 2011-02-10 at 07:31 PM.

    R.I.P. YARG

  2. #162
    Mechagnome gualdhar's Avatar
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    looking at the raid dps numbers and your content, it seems that unless you've got a SP/Boom/Fire/Feral/Survival dps, or worthwhile healer, its worth it to circle jerk in the case you described (assassination rogue and lower is no more than 2k dps raid bonus). That somehow doesn't seem right to me. Am I looking at this correctly?
    Eire - 50 Balance and Kinetic Combat Shadow, Master Zhar Lestin server. Ace guild

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin View Post
    it is never appropriate for an Affliction or Demonology Warlock to cast it on another Warlock.
    Shouldn't that read "it is never appropriate for a Affliction or Demo warlock to receieve it from another Warlock."?

    Since it is the reciever who would get two stacks.

    IE: Affli--->Destro--->chump
    Stacks: 1 2 1

  4. #164
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Good catch, edit incoming.

    @Gualdhar: It's worth it to circle jerk it, ONLY if the two warlocks in question both break 30% raid buffed haste as a result. If they do not, it's a bad thing. What can I change to make this more clear? (not insulting, asking legitimately - clarity > all)

    R.I.P. YARG

  5. #165
    Mechagnome gualdhar's Avatar
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    No, I understood it, I just couldn't believe it
    Eire - 50 Balance and Kinetic Combat Shadow, Master Zhar Lestin server. Ace guild

  6. #166
    What about in my situation above? Where there's one affli and one destro?

  7. #167
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    25294 - 23178 = 2116 DPS from 2 di's on one warlock.

    Using my guild's roster as an example:
    Add this to any combination of Demonology (Me) + X and compare to any combination of Demonology + X and Destruction + Y.

    In my guild we either have 2 Shadow priests or 1 Shadow and 1 Boomkin, and sometimes dual boomkins.
    Dual Shadows: 7468
    Shadow/Balance: 6255
    Balance/Balance: 5042
    Demo/Destro/Shadow: 5836
    Demo/Destro/Balance: 4619

    Basically, if you have 1 Shadow Priest they should get it. Who get's the second one is entirely dependant on your raid makeup, in which case Destruction (passing 30% haste in the process) ranks 6th.

    ---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 11:53 AM ----------

    Revised language:
    A Destruction Warlock who passes 30% haste with 2 stacks ranks 6th in these numbers regardless of configuration. If you have nothing above you in rank, it goes to that particular Destro lock, who then himself picks someone else according to the list.

    R.I.P. YARG

  8. #168
    Now i must go to ask very stupid. Scales Dark Intent with multiple targets? The calculation shows that Shadow Priest are allmost the best class for dpsgain in raid. We've got a big debate in our guild which class ist it the best in Raid for dark intent. I have shown them this page but they are disagree.

    Can you give me an simple example for dark intent theorycrafting on multiple targets?

  9. #169
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Shadow Priests have the highest gain from Dark Intent on multiple target fights, such as Valiona and Theralion, or Nefarian.

    Good shadow priests will dot everything that is important to die. Bad shadow priests won't, or they will dot things that are non-consequential.

    On fast AOE such as Magmaw or Cho'gall I might consider putting it on a Mage or Boomkin, because the SPriest has a large ramp up time. For example, Vile Swill on Heroic Maloriak are good for Shadow Priests but the Aberrations are good for Mages and Moonkins.

    Play around with your guild

    R.I.P. YARG

  10. #170
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    When you use "raid dps gain" are you talking about just the dps generated by that class, or the class + the warlock. For example is the raid dps gain from a shadow priest 4194 or 5877. If you are calculating the "true" raid dps (warlock dps gain + intent class gain) it would be nice to just have a column for the intent class personal gain. If you aren't, it would be nice to see the "true gain" in a column.

    Does the dark intent proc not stack? By this I mean if a target has two Dark intents does the 9% turn into 18% (9 from theirs, 9 from the other warlocks). It sounds to good to be true, but I don't see mention of it in your sim of warlocks trading it. (and yes I prefer trading to circle jerk). Also you seem to contradict yourself in the Warlock Trading section by saying the net gain is only 600 dps, but your simcraft results stating its a 1022 dps.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #171
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Affliction/Demo trading is around 600 per lock. Destro that can break the 30% haste mark as a result of doubling is 1022.

    Does not stack. 9% on two warlocks, not 18%.

    Raid DPS gain is Lock + Target, inclusive of dot damage and haste dps gains.

    R.I.P. YARG

  12. #172
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Another question, where are you getting the Tick Crit rate from? For example in your spreadsheet dump you list shadow priests as having .2445, but that doesn't seem to match when I look at data from http://www.simulationcraft.org/Raid_T11_372_406.html

    Of course I am not the best at math so I might be missing something. I'm guessing your tick crit rate was the tick crit average you said you entered into your app. The haste scale factors don't seem to equal either. Is the spreadsheet dump just not updated to 4.0.6 values?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #173
    Mechagnome gualdhar's Avatar
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    the .2445 is the average crit dot crit rate weighted by ticks per encounter. Take total number of dot tick crits, divide by total dot ticks, you get .244ish
    Eire - 50 Balance and Kinetic Combat Shadow, Master Zhar Lestin server. Ace guild

  14. #174
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    ^ What he said. I took the number of tick crits / number of total ticks that could crit for the average crit rate.

    Spreadsheet is 4.0.6-1 Simcraft scale factors, with simcraft BIS profiles. I'll start using the official dump, I hadn't realized they had gotten this far already.

    I'm in on the group emails for SimCraft, I'll pay more attention.

    R.I.P. YARG

  15. #175
    Numbers need to be run again, 1. since the shadow power nerf, and 2. since simcraft versions before 406 v3 (not sure when the bug was introduced) had shadow priests benefiting from the talent darkness twice.

  16. #176
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Good catch, thanks. I'll pass it through the latest simcraft release.

    R.I.P. YARG

  17. #177
    Man this is one awesome bit of information! ty so much for the work you put into this

  18. #178
    I'm kind of at a loss what to do. I am my guild's only raiding shadow priest, we usually run with 1-2 warlocks, a boomkin and some resto druids.

    Problem is, I don't get my DI. For example, last night we did Magmaw heroic progression. We had the tactic of one frost DK kiting all of the lava parasites, so the on-demand AoE is not a problem. But, somehow, the boomkin got the DI. We are both competent players.
    The boomkin is a good player, but he is a dick. He was an old friend of the officers and when the guild he left for broke down, he came back in, no questions asked and started acting like he owns the place. He is pretty undergeared compared to the rest of our raiding squad, only in about half epics and one piece of T11.
    The only warlock in our raid was a new trial, and he kind of bullied him into giving it to him. Even though he had the DI and I had none, I was keeping up with him on the DPS - never more than 2k behind and sometimes pulling ahead. Not short tries either, we reached <10% a few times. Because he is an arrogant arsehole, he insists on keeping the buff to make his own dps competitive at the top of the meter rather than furthering the raid DPS.

    I have posted the link to this thread and taken choice quotes from it to prove why I should be getting it, especially when we are on DPS races, but he resorted to a "Troll Face" picture saying "I'm getting it, problem?".
    I'm reluctant to go to the officers about this because I'm not confident they will do anything. Its common knowledge that I think the player is a fucking idiot and have him muted and ignored at all times except progression raiding, so it may seem like I'm just trying to look out for myself.

    IS there anything I can do to convince this idiot, the warlock and the raid leaders to actually maximise their buff when we need it most? World of Logs report of last night if you want to math anything about. I recieved a DI for about 1/3 to 1/2 of the first attempts after bugging both the boomkin and warlock for about 5 minutes, then it got switched back to the boomkin without saying anything and I decided it wasn't worth it at the time to argue about it all over again.

    Shadow Priest Main
    Originally Posted by Zarhym
    Your post is so drenched in frustration and sarcasm that it's really ruining my salad.

  19. #179
    Doesnt seem to be much you do from what you told us about the boomie.
    If they seem so incompetent about min/maxing, maybe its the wrong guild for you?

  20. #180
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    You're in the wrong guild. They no longer care about the overall dps of the raid. You sound like you can do better.

    Our guild is actively recruiting more warlocks because we run with 2 shadow priests and the dps gain is worth bringing another lock to buff them. There are more like us, I suggest you find them.

    And in the event you don't want to jump ship, then you should just ignore the situation and wait for the guild to eventually explode from bottled drama. It might take a year or so, but I've seen it happen enough.

    R.I.P. YARG

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