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  1. #81
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trunk Munky View Post
    1 more known flaw to add is that almost every class can gear (especially with reforging) based around having the static 3% Haste. This could have a pretty big effect if, for example, a Shadow Priest needs the 3% Haste to reach an extra DOT tick.

    Also, this is extremely relative but in AoE fights where Combustion can do crazy damage its probably best to give it to a Fire Mage over any class.
    Destruction is the only class spec I know of that specifically desires haste more at certain points than others. Shadow Priests always want haste, going over a plateau isn't going to change that, but it will for Destruction locks (at which point they will want Crit/Mastery for a while until their base gear goes up some more)

    R.I.P. YARG

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by The Trunk Munky View Post
    1 more known flaw to add is that almost every class can gear (especially with reforging) based around having the static 3% Haste. This could have a pretty big effect if, for example, a Shadow Priest needs the 3% Haste to reach an extra DOT tick.

    Also, this is extremely relative but in AoE fights where Combustion can do crazy damage its probably best to give it to a Fire Mage over any class.
    Actually boomkin is a clear winner based on my testing on heroic Maloriak last night. Without DI (it was on resto druid), I was absolutely crushing everyone as demonology. With DI (moved to boomkin), the boomkin was actually handing it to me. All the AE ticking from both the boomkin and warlock put both at a solid 3 stacks the entire duration of the AoE.

  3. #83
    i think i speak for all locks here gherkin in saying u are amazing dude

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicc View Post
    The difference is double fm'ing mage was categorically the best rdps choice

    Whereas double di'ing locks isnt
    no most other classes gave more damage whith the FM then arcane mages swapping it.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin View Post
    Destruction is the only class spec I know of that specifically desires haste more at certain points than others. Shadow Priests always want haste, going over a plateau isn't going to change that, but it will for Destruction locks (at which point they will want Crit/Mastery for a while until their base gear goes up some more)
    While it may not be that the Haste becomes useless to a particular class after reaching that extra tick/Haste cap you cannot deny it has an effect on the worth of the buff. If 2 people were neck-in-neck to receive the buff, the fact that one of the two will reach an extra tick/Haste cap with the 3% could be the deciding factor on who to give it to, and is one worth considering.

    Quote Originally Posted by andromalia View Post
    Actually boomkin is a clear winner based on my testing on heroic Maloriak last night. Without DI (it was on resto druid), I was absolutely crushing everyone as demonology. With DI (moved to boomkin), the boomkin was actually handing it to me. All the AE ticking from both the boomkin and warlock put both at a solid 3 stacks the entire duration of the AoE.
    Obviously it varies from guild to guild but Maloriak on WoL is 'Demo Lock, Demo Lock, Demo Lock... *Fire Mage*, Demo Lock...' so I fail to see how what happens in your particular guild proves the 'clear winner' either way.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by pieki View Post
    no most other classes gave more damage whith the FM then arcane mages swapping it.
    Except no one worth their salt played arcane.

  7. #87
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicc View Post
    Except no one worth their salt played arcane.
    Except this was TOC and pre-heroic ICC where everyone and their dog played arcane until they got enough gear for Fire to be better.

    R.I.P. YARG

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin View Post
    Except this was TOC and pre-heroic ICC where everyone and their dog played arcane until they got enough gear for Fire to be better.
    And with the higher gear too, for single target damage (Fire only beat it on multi-target damage. Lots of fights have multitarget damage, but sadly the average wow player didn't and doesn't care about that.)
    And the average wow player certainly got far in raids in wotlk

    That being said, I knew a lot of people who had an arc spec and a fire spec, and would change depending on boss (had the fire spec for LK)

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-13 at 03:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by pieki View Post
    no most other classes gave more damage whith the FM then arcane mages swapping it.
    I think at some point there was some fire mage buffing an arc mage, and when I whispered him to buff the boomkin, he said the arc mage wouldn't give it to him if he did. "I'll say it on vent, so he can't complain its your fault"
    "by the way, x, put your focus magic on y, its a dps boost for the raid"
    *notice the arc mage takes focus magic off the fire mage*

    *Tell arc mage to PUT FOCUS MAGIC BACK ON X OR GET OUT OF THE RAID, RAIDING AS A DPS IS ALL ABOUT OPTIMISATION NOT SELFISH RIDICULOUS IN-CLASS AGREEMENTS*

    Yea, that was fun

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-13 at 03:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by andromalia View Post
    Actually boomkin is a clear winner based on my testing on heroic Maloriak last night. Without DI (it was on resto druid), I was absolutely crushing everyone as demonology. With DI (moved to boomkin), the boomkin was actually handing it to me. All the AE ticking from both the boomkin and warlock put both at a solid 3 stacks the entire duration of the AoE.
    Maloriak is a very special case, essentially boomkins are best off getting a rotation going which consists entirely of sunfire and AoE on that fight (Or so I've heard from many)

    Also, in regards to your case though, of course raid dps will go up if you put it on the boomkin instead of a resto druid, and you didn't actually compare it to a fire mage in that fight at all, so I'm not sure how you can say boomkins are a clear winner on that
    Last edited by wasniahC; 2011-01-13 at 03:23 AM.

  9. #89
    THe priority order in the OP is correct. But saying that u should put it on healers when progressing, is just outright wrong.

    DI should be on healers if its an AoE HEAVY healing fight (Magmaw, Chimaeron), but on fights where AoE healing matters less, it should go on a the dps imo. If you are wiping on, let's say Golem Council or Theralion and Valiona because your raid members died, DI on the healers wouldn't help you, as the dead guys either failed, or the healers failed. More powerful hots wont help u if u heal too late or just heal the wrong targets.

    It's better to increase your raid dps, and thus killing the boss faster, than increasing the SP of your healers hots.

    So imo, DI should go on your dps classes, unless the boss fights requires some retarded apeshit AoE carpet healing.

    1 more known flaw to add is that almost every class can gear (especially with reforging) based around having the static 3% Haste. This could have a pretty big effect if, for example, a Shadow Priest needs the 3% Haste to reach an extra DOT tick.
    Shadow Priests (and all other dot classes) benefit from every single point of haste, not just when u get an additional tick. Haste decreases the interval between your ticks all the time, not just when u get to the "one more tick treshold". When you recast your dots, your goal is to land the spell just when the dot is about to expire, thus refreshing the duration of the DoT, BUT NOT RESETTING THE TICK INTERVAL. The number of ticks you get from your initial 24sec DoT, matters just as much as the amount of Int you have on your Rogue.
    Last edited by ThrashMetalFtw; 2011-01-13 at 12:51 PM.
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  10. #90
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    It's an arguable point, and I don't disagree or agree. It's good for more aoe healing, but you could also say that if by chance that one hot saved someone from dying, you are increasing their experience of the fight instead of just having someone on the floor too soon and calling for a wipe.

    I'm not going to argue the value of putting it on a dps, as that is subjective. For example, granting a dps 2500 dps is 750k over a 5 minute fight is around 1% of a bosses hp and based on the discussions on this board happens all the time. However, 5 people who lived 30 seconds longer each due to increased healing (but still died in the end because they're dumb) that did 15k while alive is 2,250k.

    It's entirely situational, and considering healing is already pretty difficult in many cases I would want to make the lives easier for the people enabling me to raid in the first place. We have lots of tanks and dps :P
    Last edited by gherkin; 2011-01-13 at 07:55 PM.

    R.I.P. YARG

  11. #91
    Great Guide.thanks

  12. #92
    I think the point that a lot of people are ignoring and therefore basing arguable points on is that this isn't Wrath anymore, this is Cataclysm. The fights so far contain a lot of mechanics and technicalities that might make DI far favorable on one class or another, and you also must take into consideration what you ACTUALLY want to get out of DI when you decide who to place it on. The player is going to make buffing them more favorable than maybe one that "ranks" higher on a chart. Don't over-emphasize on simcrafting and theorycrafting, you MUST see it first hand in order to know what works. Simply relying on someone elses "guide"(no offense intended Gherk) is not going to make your number's jump just because you used it on this one person this one fight. Experiment with it, use it on a carrying dps(Mages on Halfus would be a good idea) due to how it is going to benefit a raid in it's entirety, if the heals are going to be pressured most of the fight, you're damn right a DI on a Resto druid is a good idea, not to mention that resto druid(a smart one) will be pre-proccing DI for you, giving you an upper hand in the fight.

    However, great job with this Gherkin, very solid guide to tweak one's DPS with. Always nice to have some #'s to make people shutup.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    Shadow Priests (and all other dot classes) benefit from every single point of haste, not just when u get an additional tick. Haste decreases the interval between your ticks all the time, not just when u get to the "one more tick treshold". When you recast your dots, your goal is to land the spell just when the dot is about to expire, thus refreshing the duration of the DoT, BUT NOT RESETTING THE TICK INTERVAL. The number of ticks you get from your initial 24sec DoT, matters just as much as the amount of Int you have on your Rogue.
    Nonsense. Saying classes "benefit from every single point of haste" means fuck all, really. So what if, for example, a Fire Mage always wants haste if a Hunter simply doesn't have the gear to be Haste-capped but with the extra 3% he will, and thus has an abnormally larger scale factor for it? If, ignoring this 1 fact, they were neck-in-neck to receive the buff then this would be the decider to give it to him.

    Aside from this, there are many fights where its not simply a case of always refreshing DOTs and you are in fact tab-dotting adds that you won't renew DOTs on, so yes, Haste thresholds matter more than you think. Combustion on Halfus Wyrmbreaker is a perfect example of this and if you put a Mage over the threshold where, say, under Heroism they gain an extra tick on 2 of their DOTs then this is a huge damage boost. I'm not saying classes would deliberately reforge away their Haste for guaranteed Dark Intent - I'm saying they might be limited by the gear they have and thus DI would be more valuable to them.

  14. #94
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Yes, it's in here somewhere. 3% haste stacks, 9% dot damage does not. Therefore the two warlocks would have a combined 12% haste and 18% dot damage, but if you cast it on non warlocks, the 4 players would have a combined 12% haste (less per player) but a 36% dot/hot increase, which is much better for the raid.

    R.I.P. YARG

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin View Post
    Yes, it's in here somewhere. 3% haste stacks, 9% dot damage does not. Therefore the two warlocks would have a combined 12% haste and 18% dot damage, but if you cast it on non warlocks, the 4 players would have a combined 12% haste (less per player) but a 36% dot/hot increase, which is much better for the raid.
    Ahh! I found that ditty, then deleted my post just as you responded. Thanks for the response tho, and a great guide!

  16. #96
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    survival seems a bit low, considering most of their damage comes from a dot thats constantly critting.

  17. #97
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    Survival is low, as are fire mages (in total damage, not rank). I'm waiting on the PTR to get close to finishing because I am lazy and don't want to do this twice in 3 weeks. It takes around 4 hours to put together, not including formatting.

    R.I.P. YARG

  18. #98
    Thank you very much for this post, it's been a big help for me.

    You could0 note for the sake of other classes that hunters should be asked before putting haste on them. It sounds silly, but several of the hunters I raid with are actually close to haste cap, and too much haste can throw off shot rotations, and lower overall raid DPS instead of increasing it, and you should instead pick another target in this case.

  19. #99
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    As a Resto druid i approve of this thread <3

  20. #100
    The priority of Balance and Fire Mages over ferals surprises me here, as ~50% of a feral's DPS is DoTs, while its only ~30% for a Balance ~40%? for a fire mage.

    Can anyone provide some insite as to why Ferals are lower than them in the sim?

    Edit: Feral also have a much higher crit chance than mages or boomkins.
    Last edited by Chaka; 2011-01-21 at 02:16 AM.
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