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  1. #1

    Heroics are broken

    The reason is that clearing one is the exception, not the rule. Heroics are for gearing people up to do raiding content, not to be as hard as raids themselves. I think Blizzard is going to lose a significant amount of players because heroic pugs have an extremely high fail rate. I'm a healer so if one fails, I can simply re-q and get in another one instantly. But Johny DPS has to wait 45 minutes before he can try again. Of course I'm talking about pugs and the dungeon finder here. If you get a premade going, and all of your dps is rock n' roll and nails every interrupt, doesn't stand in the fire etc.. you don't have a problem. The smoothest runs I've been in were premades with a Paladin tank and 3 dps. The Pally helps heal himself and the DPS are all kingslayers and it makes the instance really fun.

    But. Big but.

    Most heroics do not end up that way. Most of the time you get at least one DPS that is clueless, totally focused on numbers to care about mechanics or just bad. People are so stuck in the Wrath mindset of the healer carrying the 25k hp tank and the 2k dps. However currently the healer is only a small part of the group. We arguably have the hardest job, but we're still only 1/5 of the team. Everyone needs to be up to snuff or else you wipe. Wiping over and over in a raid is understandable. It's supposed to be like that. But not in a 5 player heroic dungeon. We should be able to clear a heroic with some difficulty, and we should be able to clear it with the group the dungeon finder has given us.

    As a healer I've noticed 2 main problems with the current system.

    1. There is way too much incoming damage to tanks in some fights. Some of the bosses just hit way too hard. Halls of Origination comes to mind. The first trash pull is reasonably difficult for some tanks. One time, the tank reported taking a 90k hit. And I believe him because many of these tanks are dropping like sacks of potatoes.

    2. DPS has zero room for failure. This is terrible design, plain and simple. People are going to screw up. You practically need the reaction time and coordination of a fighter pilot to get some of these bosses down. Commander Springvale in SFK is one of them.

    To sum it all up, yes some of the content needs to be nerfed. The sooner you do it, the sooner pugs can start having fun in heroics.
    Last edited by dwarven; 2010-12-16 at 11:58 PM.

  2. #2
    I agree. However all the nay-sayers will just reply with "Get better gear, trollol"
    I have 153.2K Hp on my bear tank, 32% dodge, 30something k armor, and I drop like a rock.

  3. #3
    "One time, the tank reported taking a 90k crit."

    Tanks can be crit?

  4. #4
    How does a tank in a tanking spec take a crit?

  5. #5
    I think some nerfs need to come in to heroics. NOT a nerf back to wrath level but just somthing to make them manageable. Yes I know Im going to get "Hur Dur you're a casual get better noob". I am a casual now but BC Wrath I wasnt, and from what I see heroics need to be made slightly easier.

  6. #6
    I like harder dungeons with guildies.
    But with Random Dungeons ? It's just awful. I saw groups wiping on the first pull of HoO because people simply can't interrupt / cc. I interrupted the Flame mob in HoO 16 times in a single fight, while a Mage and the Shammie didn't interrupt a single time. And that was actually a good run. Most of the times it's just a wipe fest.
    English is not my first language, feel free to point out any mistake so i can keep learning.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by superniall50 View Post
    "One time, the tank reported taking a 90k crit."

    Tanks can be crit?
    Yeah. No. Tanks can't be crit, OP; if they're getting hit that hard, they're either undergeared, or doing something wrong in the encounter. It's quite that simple.

    Heroics are tougher. If you want a smooth run 100%, then you do a premade with people you know and trust. They'll be facerolled just in a couple of tiers, but until then, I humbly, humbly request we stop going nuts over them. The only two bosses I honestly think could do with a potential nerf would be Springvale - whom the OP did point out I admit - and Setesh in HoO. These bosses are still doable, but the difficulty compared to the other bosses in the instance is drastic enough that they're simply out of place.

    PLEASE remember, folks, that these heroics are going to be absolutely faceroll in later tiers. Let's enjoy the hard stuff while we've got it.

  8. #8
    Deleted
    Im in full hc gear and I still get huge hits. Just CC as much as you can and you should be alright. We had some problems with the trash in HoO, but when we started using all the cc's we could, we dont got any problem with these packs.

  9. #9
    High Overlord Rhade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typrax View Post
    2. DPS has zero room for failure. This is terrible design, plain and simple. People are going to screw up. You practically need the reaction time and coordination of a fighter pilot to get some of these bosses down. Commander Springvale in SFK is one of them.
    I'm not even gonna touch the majority of this post, as i don't feel like writing a novel about what's wrong here. You realize it is possible to miss interrupts on the odd occasion and still succeed in a heroic. 1 Interrupt most of the time isn't going to be a wipe, it's a combination of fails that's gonna kill you.

    So I take it the air force might have lowered it's standards a bit. A 2sec cast that needs to be interrupted, requires speed precision? You could use 1 gcd as he starts casting, and still interrupt it... Plus the fact most interrupts are off GCD is sure to help... I'd love to see a fighter pilot who has between 1.5-3secs to react to everything. When wow puts in .5sec casts for isntagibs maybe you will be validated then. Till then a competent player (which is what heroics are based around not a pile of wrath-babies), will see this and more then likely be able to react in time. The problem is competence was not a requirement to play this game, in Wrath of the Free Epics .
    Fear makes the wolf bigger than he is, and I am the wolf that hunts you.

  10. #10
    Yeah heroics are hard but they are manageable. I hope Blizzard doesn't listen to the QQ and keeps them exactly the way they are. After people start getting better gear, knowing the encounters, learn how to heal/tank/dps effectively, they'll all become easy again and we'll be wondering why we ever thought they were difficult.

    For fuck's sake people, it's only been a week. Give the expansion some time before crying NERF NERF NERF!!!
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  11. #11
    The Patient frejborg's Avatar
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    No! I disagree with this thread.
    Heroics are for gearing up to do raid content.
    That doesn't mean they should be easy and fast. Think of heroics as your current raid tier.. until you've geared enough for raids.

  12. #12
    sorry but i do not think blizzard did anything wrong.

    I play on shattered hand, which is a great server. I do heroics and have never been with a fail group. I also use the dungeon finder to do these instances, not premades.
    Everyone knows what they are doing. Tank even did a lot of los in stonecore.

    The thing is too many kids are too crazy right now. Playing very poorly and this expansion is harder then wotlk.
    Dont blame blizzard for the way that bad people are playing. help out the bad players or just keep waiting till you find good groups. It might take a while for a dps to get a heroic
    but this game involves a whole lot more people then just 1. I find it very retarded to make the game easier and easier because people do not wish to put any effort into what they are doing, or pay attention. The groups im in always let the tank establish some aggro first. I never see anyone in the fire. the other players never seem to get hit by bosses in stone core that stomp or do any aoe attacks.

    Heroics are not broken, people are playing badly and need a reason that isn't themselves.

  13. #13
    Deleted
    There is a solution to this.

    Do not pug heroic instances in the current day and age of content.

    This is an absolutely reasonable suggestion. You know why? I'll say it the hard way; puggers are retarded. There's no communication, let alone vent or teamspeak; the people in them are morons - I had a tauren paladin whine at me as a healer despite the fact that he wasn't dying, because I kept him at 60% hp on trash. There's basically no excuse to pug - even if you're an antisocial bastard you can still ask around in trade for people to join you, because at least then you will get the chance to use voice communication. Or if you, like me, have joined a guild with eager 85s, you should have no trouble doing premade groups.

    Zing.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Isn't it

    Normal Modes prepare you for heroics

    Heroics prepare you for Raids?

    I don't understand why your doing heroics if you see them too hard.. How will you deal in a raiding situation.. Or are you expecting a 30% buff in raids?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by superniall50 View Post
    "One time, the tank reported taking a 90k crit."

    Tanks can be crit?
    On one of the four upper bosses in HoO, the Big Elementals in the Trash appearently "crit" tanks once they are fully charged. At least 3 Tanks that I have been with on those packs told me something "crit" them all of a sudden. Don't know for sure though, if that counts towards actual crits.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Herecius View Post
    Yeah. No. Tanks can't be crit, OP; if they're getting hit that hard, they're either undergeared, or doing something wrong in the encounter. It's quite that simple.

    Heroics are tougher. If you want a smooth run 100%, then you do a premade with people you know and trust. They'll be facerolled just in a couple of tiers, but until then, I humbly, humbly request we stop going nuts over them. The only two bosses I honestly think could do with a potential nerf would be Springvale - whom the OP did point out I admit - and Setesh in HoO. These bosses are still doable, but the difficulty compared to the other bosses in the instance is drastic enough that they're simply out of place.

    PLEASE remember, folks, that these heroics are going to be absolutely faceroll in later tiers. Let's enjoy the hard stuff while we've got it.
    Don't shoot the messenger. I don't know anything about tanking.

    Anyways..

    You shouldn't need to form a guild premade to clear a heroic.

  17. #17
    So your a healer...

    DPS stands in the shiney stuff let them die...use recount death report when they complain, see why they died and tell them, if they didn't stand in xxx shiney stuff then you would have been able to keep them up. DPS needs to be forced to start to move or die. Yes I am a dps and I learnt a long time ago that dps meters don't mean anything if you are always dead I also play a holly priest and yes I do let dps die when they are not paying attention to mechanics.

    I stand by the 'The tank dies, its the healers fault, The healer dies, its the tanks fault (at least if its from mobs and not shiney stuff they are standing in) and if the dps die its their own damn fault.


    If you are having issues healing the tank either the tank isn't geared enough yet or your not or the tank is not gearing properly. This isn't a slam on your thread it just fact. I have done a herioc with a poorly geared tank and we struggled pull to pull with the healer really having issues. Yet the same instance the next day with a tank that is nicely geared the healer was fine and had no problems, a couple of wipes from dps breaking cc but that was it.

    So I would say no Blizzard doesn't need to change anything. Give it time slowly people will start to get better gear and it will get easier.

  18. #18

  19. #19
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Typrax View Post
    The reason is that clearing one is the exception, not the rule. Heroics are for gearing people up to do raiding content, not to be as hard as raids themselves.
    Why on earth do you think people without the ability to perform in raids should be eligable for gear to raid in?

  20. #20
    Keyboard Turner Eldarin's Avatar
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    Im a casual player and I love the difficulty of the new dungeons in cata, also op you said that heroics are meant to prepare you for raids, if that is the case then you shouldn't be moaning about the difficulty of the heroics, as they are there to teach you that the raids in cata can and will annihilate you, enjoy it

    So I say keep the difficulty, people will learn better.

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