Kuni's Frost Mage PVE Guide (Cataclysm)

**Max Rebo** · 2012-01-09, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai

Updated for 4.3, . . . . .

That's a good assessment, Kuni. Much appreciated.

I do agree that Blizzard could easily band-aid fix Frost for the short term, namely with a DF tweak and by allowing Blizzard AoE to interact with FoF. True, we do have two other good dps specs, but I also happen to enjoy frost the most, same as many of us here.

Let's hope their new talent system will fix Frost so they can freely tweak the PvE end without having to worry so much about PvP implications.

**Kuni Zyrekai** · 2012-01-09, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by Max Rebo

Let's hope their new talent system will fix Frost so they can freely tweak the PvE end without having to worry so much about PvP implications.

One should hope. Especially because a lot of what made frost so deadly is now general skills or talents.

**Nathyiel** · 2012-01-10, 02:36 PM

I want to thanks Kuni for these forum.

To me, it's seems that Blizzard has intentionally forget these spec in PVE. I'm on PTR (like always) and the interaction between 4pT13 and Icy Veins is very bugged. The respond you quote can only confirm me in my opinion: a majority of the dev is focusd on MoP and they don't want to use a lot of time for correcting frost PVE for only 6 month before a upcoming major extension.

Why ?
Because correcting frost DPS in PVE without having to confront the crying pvp community isn't has simple has upgrading DF.

For me, it's the T13 mechanics on itself that is incompatible with Frost. Only 35% of our DPS is incanted (frostbolt) and can benefice from it. And as you have said it, we can easily capping both haste and crit.

What can be done ?
I think that Shatter and Crit don't have to be change. It's the core of these spec's.
Your proposition for FFB glyph is pretty good. But I think that FFB can also be made for regularity by a proc from the number of slowing debuff or something like that. These two things can be very good.
For movement, the talent in MoP tree is a good idea: you two next spell can cast while moving. Or the possibility to keep procing FoF for casting Ice Lance.
I can only agreed with you for Blizzard. I think that a good addition can be to modify Piercing Chill from a slowing cleave to a real cleave. These can be a good option idea to make it between arcane and fire on cleave fight

For making frost competitive with 4pT13, they can also reduced the CD of Deep Freeze by 1s for each stacks and make it proc at 75% or 100%, instead of 50%. With these, we can want to have more haste for stacking quickly.

In conclusion:
They have to debug both DTR and T13.
They have to revert the mastery nerf.
They have to boost DF and/or including it in the 4pT13 bonus.

edit> I have erase my first post. Sorry for the disturbance.

**Hinalover** · 2012-01-13, 11:45 AM

The problem with having Deep Freeze reduced by 10 seconds though is that it will force PvP players to use 2piece-2piece, since that would be a huge CC buff to a spec that many PvP players already find OP. I personally would love to get frost to become competitive PvE wise again. I absolutely love the rotation and I cannot wait to see what MoP gives us.

**Nathyiel** · 2012-01-13, 03:24 PM

It's because of that it's a good idea for PVE.

If you take a 4pT13 witch reduce DF cooldown by 1s, then you will not have enough resilience. At the same time, the use of 2piece+2piece (I doubt that it's actually work) won't change anything.

In MoP, they want to bring more word PVP. So it will be more pvp in PVE stuff and other things like that. I'm pretty curious of what blizzard will bring with that.

**Kuni Zyrekai** · 2012-01-14, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Hinalover

The problem with having Deep Freeze reduced by 10 seconds though is that it will force PvP players to use 2piece-2piece

Small issue with this; the CD reduction is tied to the 4p, not the 2p. You'd have to dump the majority of your resilience to grab it. Not to mention the requisite 10 stacks of the 2p for said reduction. It has potential, but we just won't see it since 4.3.2 is already at RC stages.

**Hinalover** · 2012-01-16, 01:45 AM

Yea realized my mistake after Nath posted. Didn't bother going back and correcting myself.

**Hinalover** · 2012-01-20, 10:08 PM

I would like to amend. Did a guild run as Frost in LFR yesterday and I have to say Frost does DECENT damage in DS but fights where there are adds, Frost does fall behind. I could have done better on Morchok (even though I got a 6th place rank), Zon'ozz, and Hagara (popped my cds before the burn phases on the last two; which is the most optimal time to pop them). But overall it does decent but Arcane and Fire still outweigh it. For some perspective, I did 35.5k dps on Ultraxion (enough for 4th place ranking) when normally I'm around 41-43k dps as Fire.

Still I cannot wait for the MoP changes.

**ciaro** · 2012-01-21, 03:16 AM

Did an Ultraxion LFR run just to try it out in a raid setting, managed to pull 37.9k, and just 20min earlier I did 54.1k as fire, so yeah, there's sadly no reason for anyone to play the spec anymore...
both runs were without DI, FM and trix

**huth** · 2012-01-24, 11:19 PM

Well, it does good enough for my twink. And it's more satisfying when you can beat the snot out of the other DPS in Frost. Not to mention that i can't play fire worth a crap and Arcane doesn't do much damage when you're asleep either.

Anyway, the somewhat weird way 4T13 and IV interact(i.e. it reduces the cooldown at the time you cast IV, but the stack falls off when it ends) brings a question to my mind... what would be the best stack size to use it?
Using it on CD would get you into a strange sawtooth wave, with a 4s downtime followed by one up to the full CD depending on luck, so that doesn't seem to be a good idea.
8-9 stacks seems to leave one with a more reasonable timeframe to rebuild them before IV becomes available again. But should one wait for the ninth stack or just blast away at eight?

**Liokaiser** · 2012-01-25, 05:13 AM

Hello,

First time posting here, though I read these threads a lot.

Just throwing this out there... I see why Dragonwrath is awful with Frost (i don't own it), but is frost going to really fall that far behind assuming you adjust your stat weights with 4 piece and focus on mastery instead (assuming you don't own DW)? Plus Fire is getting a nerf too, which might make things more comparable (again, ignoring DW).

Just looking/hoping to hear that it will do good, because it sounds like its stat weights would fall more inline with arcane. It's hard to gear right now for fire and frost with 4 piece, and fire not really appreciating mastery unless there's a lot of aoe. And speccing Fire and Arcane runs into the same issue. I guess I need to pony up for the reforging and give LFR a go when I get my 4th piece.

**Max Rebo** · 2012-01-25, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Liokaiser

Hello,

First time posting here, though I read these threads a lot.

Just throwing this out there... I see why Dragonwrath is awful with Frost (i don't own it), but is frost going to really fall that far behind assuming you adjust your stat weights with 4 piece and focus on mastery instead (assuming you don't own DW)? Plus Fire is getting a nerf too, which might make things more comparable (again, ignoring DW).

Just looking/hoping to hear that it will do good, because it sounds like its stat weights would fall more inline with arcane. It's hard to gear right now for fire and frost with 4 piece, and fire not really appreciating mastery unless there's a lot of aoe. And speccing Fire and Arcane runs into the same issue. I guess I need to pony up for the reforging and give LFR a go when I get my 4th piece.

Even with reforging specifically for Frost (which I did for an LFR run the other night), I was 10-15k dps behind my previous attempt as Arcane on the same boss -- Zon'ozz, I think. Frost wasn't terrible, but it wasn't great, either.

**scuac** · 2012-01-26, 03:56 PM

I have been doing DS 10N lately and having been playing Frost since... forever. The other night we got Ultraxion and I was bottom of dps with around 22k, Next day I respecced and reforged for fire, haven't had the chance to try it yet on a raid, but on the dummies it is already doing 20k unbuffed, and I don't even know the fire rotation. I am sad that I have to move away from Frost, but I think it would be irresponsible towards the raid group to stay Frost for the last fights. Hopefully I will be able to go back when MoP comes.

**Kuni Zyrekai** · 2012-01-26, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by huth

But should one wait for the ninth stack or just blast away at eight?

8 would appear to be the sweet spot. 8 gives you 28 seconds after it ends to stack it up as high as you can, 9 gives you 16 seconds, 10 gives you 4. 28 seconds seems fairly long until you realize you're likely casting an average of 1.6s between all stack variations, and 10 casts alone is 16 seconds. 50% proc rate, 8 seems to be the mark to hit. Dragonwrath helps a lot in this regard, since you're likely to get at least one proc during your IV downtime, and I usually end my first 8 stack cooldown at 10.

Originally Posted by Liokaiser

Just throwing this out there... I see why Dragonwrath is awful with Frost (i don't own it), but is frost going to really fall that far behind assuming you adjust your stat weights with 4 piece and focus on mastery instead (assuming you don't own DW)? Plus Fire is getting a nerf too, which might make things more comparable (again, ignoring DW).

While Dragonwrath isn't quite as good for frost as it is for fire and arcane, the spec difference is still fairly steep without it. Fire's nerf just brings it in line with arcane.

Originally Posted by scuac

I am sad that I have to move away from Frost, but I think it would be irresponsible towards the raid group to stay Frost for the last fights. Hopefully I will be able to go back when MoP comes.

This is the general feeling all around.

**Holtzmann** · 2012-01-27, 01:03 AM

Well, at least there's always PvP. Until MoP comes around and survival/control options are shuffled/redistributed around and another round of constant complaining begins once more. It's the ciiiiiircle of whining.

Anyway, back to the topic: Kuni, do you have any info on how Frost performs at gear levels (far) below BiS? I've been planning on PvPing with some heroic dungeons on the side while I get resilience gear, and I'll certainly not have time for even LFR raids in the near future... but I've tried Arcane and Fire and found both really meh in terms of gameplay. As much as I like being competitive and all, how a spec plays out is much more important than its output to me. Still, should I expect to be laughed out of End Time in full 378 gear?

**chuwule** · 2012-01-27, 02:02 AM

Thanks for the guide, as mentioned by others its simple and goes straight to the point. Looks like I've been weighing haste and mastery wrong and misused BF procs :P

**Nathyiel** · 2012-01-27, 09:40 AM

For Raid Finder and heroic, there's no problem with frost. The gap is growing with the stuff. With a better stuff, your DPS will increase more in Fire and Arcane than in Frost.

Kuni: Is the 4T13 bug still here? The last time I have tested it, I have : 2xIV - full cooldown - 2xIV - full CD - etc.

**Frostful** · 2012-01-27, 07:03 PM

Rank #13 48k dps World of Logs as frost on Zanozz did LFR for fun to see how frost was...

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...5L/Frost_Mage/

this was with no reforging to mastery and having about 5.6% mastery

**Zumzumzum** · 2012-01-28, 12:20 AM

I'm waiting for serious opponents in LFR guys ! Go go go

**Frostful** · 2012-01-28, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by Zumzumzum

I'm waiting for serious opponents in LFR guys ! Go go go

Rank # 1 Madness
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...5L/Frost_Mage/

try and catch up

Thread: Kuni's Frost Mage PVE Guide (Cataclysm)

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