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  1. #161
    Thanks for the reply!
    I have another question here as I am reforging, is there any "caps" to go for when it comes to haste or mastery? Which one is valued the most?

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equim View Post
    Thanks for the reply!
    I have another question here as I am reforging, is there any "caps" to go for when it comes to haste or mastery? Which one is valued the most?
    There's no caps like fire has the soft caps for extra ticks on living bomb and combustion. As to which is more valuable, I haven't finished simulations. My computer isn't the best in the world and I need the rating comparisons, which slows simulating down greatly. BiS gear has 1527 haste and 873 mastery which then measure out to about equal DPS weights, slightly in favour of haste. But honestly I can't say for certain which is better, and it will always depend on your gear.

    ---------- Post added 2011-03-25 at 03:29 AM ----------

    Alright so as far as I can tell, haste is ever so slightly better than mastery as was originally stated, but reforging all haste instead of mastery on the BiS set only reduced DPS by ~70. I'm using the PTR changes.

    Mastery set: 1303 haste, 1105 mastery, weights of 1.4303 haste to 1.1888 mastery
    Haste set: 1527 haste, 873 mastery, weights of 1.3149 haste to 1.1663 mastery

    And before anyone asks, ice lance glyph still sucks.
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2011-03-25 at 10:32 AM.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Equim View Post
    However, in the past I have been lazy and used askmrrobot.com a lot to figure out reforging and stat prio's easily. Though after reading this topic it seems that there are completely different stat priorities. Where as MrRobot keeps telling me that mastery is more valuable than it seems to be here, and even letting me drop down quite a lot on the crit.
    We will take a look at our stat weights again. If anyone ever goes to our site and thinks that the default stat weights are incorrect or out of date - please let us know! We can usually make an update within 48 hours if something looks off!
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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by revulva View Post
    We will take a look at our stat weights again. If anyone ever goes to our site and thinks that the default stat weights are incorrect or out of date - please let us know! We can usually make an update within 48 hours if something looks off!
    As much as I didn't want to reply to this, you've got a post on your forum to report this already, 4 days old. The priority given in the post is also wrong/out of date, but hey. Hit SimC. Stat weights for the three non-hit secondary stats are crit to 2p lance cap > haste > crit to DF/FFB cap >= mastery > more crit.
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2011-03-25 at 04:22 PM.

  5. #165
    Found the post... looks like I missed that. I'm just one guy!

    When I use SimC on BiS gear, mastery is valued over haste. This could be because that set already has significantly more haste than mastery, though. Doing a more thorough analysis of Mage stat weights has been on my to-do list for a while. When I do more iterations on multiple sets of gear, I should be able to land on some better general stat weights. I did a few iterations and ended up with these stat weights and BiS set:
    http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/m...L3-s3w,A-h2g,O

    This set sims out to higher DPS than the default BiS profile, so that is a good sign. I know the simulator is a little too perfect in its implementation of frost, though.

    Handling the multiple break points for the weight of crit is something that will require special code. Right now we only allow one break point for crit, and it is hard-coded in at 33%. (We'll change it to 33.5% in the next update.) We don't have a way to value the 2piece crit cap separately from the DF/FFB cap and slip haste in between. I think we can implement something that would make this possible, though. The stat weights I used in the link above practically achieve the intended result, though, simply by weighting crit only very slightly above haste.

    We will update the stat weights for Frost in our next update.
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  6. #166
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    Sounds good. I'll get around to playing with that set you found with my settings and see how it works out.

    ---------- Post added 2011-03-25 at 03:20 PM ----------

    Allllllright then.

    Default mathematically perfect behaviour, BiS372 as listed in SimC vs AskMrRobot
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7333734/SimC/defaultperf.html
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7333734/SimC/mrrobotperf.html
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2011-03-25 at 10:55 PM.

  7. #167
    Something doesn't look right in those outputs when I look at the stats. The Mr. Robot set is showing 17.15% hit, which leads me to believe there might be a slight error in the set you ran it on. The set should have 16.47% hit raid buffed. If you can hook me up with your config files, I could check it out.

    Here is the chardev profile for the set, if you want to just import it:
    http://www.chardev.org/?profile=85529

    Theoretically the set I found follows the "crit to 2p lance cap > haste > crit to DF/FFB cap >= mastery > more crit" priority more closely, so we should see a DPS gain, or at least not a loss if our theories about the stat priorities are correct.

    (In my investigations of other classes and specs, I have often found that once you reach the near-BiS point... manually fiddling with the sets can tweak our more DPS in SimC than following any rules or stat priorities. With changes of only 150 DPS or so... it is impossible to tell if we are gaming the simulator or finding an actual meaningful result.)
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  8. #168
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    Much better. I guess I missed something along the way. My apologies. This set seems to also continue to be better into PTR settings as well. I'll get it tested with my edits to behaviour well, see if the results are the same across the board. But it seems to be 400 DPS or so better on PTR, which is a great sign. You should actually post that chardev link over to EJ's mage simulation thread. It's repeatedly beating the current default, with or without FM/DI.

    ---------- Post added 2011-03-27 at 08:11 PM ----------

    Okay round two of results, the links in the post prior to this won't work now.

    BiS372 default vs AskMrRobot, mathematically perfect frost.
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7333734/def.html
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7333734/mrrobotdef.html

    PTR BiS372 default vs AskMrRobot, mathematically perfect frost.
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7333734/ptrdef.html
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7333734/mrrobotptrdef.html

    PTR BiS372 default vs AskMrRobot, Kuni frost edits.
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7333734/ptrkunifrost.html
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7333734/mrro...kunifrost.html
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2011-03-28 at 03:14 AM.

  9. #169
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    I`ve tried Mr. Robot myself and I`m pretty confused : ) Cause Mastery seems to be a very important stat here. The Mr. Robot optimization for my current gear looks as follows:

    http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/e...er/citizenpete

    Additional 8.325% frostburn in favor of Int, SP, Hit, Crit and Haste? It doesn`t feel right but maybe I´m wrong?

  10. #170
    The default weights have not been updated yet on our site - you will have to manually enter the weights from the link I posted above.

    On our current test build, we also did put in some code to dynamically adjust the crit cap to take into account the 2 piece t11 set bonus. The set it comes up with is very slightly different than what I posted previously, but the final stats are almost the same. I will post here when our update goes live, or, you can use the links in my sig to follow us on facebook or twitter to get instant news on our updates and such.

    Thanks for running it again, Kuni. I will post the set on EJ... although I generally don't have much luck posting my theorycraft over there Mr. Robot uses stat weights so I think I'm on some sort of "ignore this guy's posts" list for many of them.
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  11. #171
    Do we have any info on trinkets for frosties? Thinking of buying DM:Volcano instead of Whiching hourglass, but really hard to value them....

  12. #172
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    DM:Volcano is a very strong trinket. It`s BiS for me.
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2011-03-28 at 04:59 PM.

  13. #173
    Want to start off with a huge THANK YOU to Kuni and all the contributors. I was growing very tired of hearing people tell me to respec. I love frost! Anyhow...I am a noob compared to most of the people posting on here, but I have a question. I never saw a definitive answer for how to reforge (or maybe I just missed it). I took a look at Kuni's toon and he has almost double the crit over haste. I have read the priority list...I am hit capped. My haste and crit are fairly close. Should I favor one over the other? I am not a hard core raider (actually have never raided), I figure I am a couple of weeks from trying it...still getting comfortable with heroics. Any suggestions on gear or reforging? I appreciate what you (Kuni) have done here. It is really nice having a place to point people to that are jumping on me for not going fire. Thanks again.

    My armory link...
    wont let me link it. Bogart on Eldre'Thalas (guild: Defenders of the pass).

  14. #174
    This is from a few posts up

    Stat weights for the three non-hit secondary stats are crit to 2p lance cap > haste > crit to DF/FFB cap >= mastery > more crit.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozmodeus View Post
    I was growing very tired of hearing people tell me to respec. I love frost!
    Ye, this thread looks like safe oasis for all of us weirdos who just love this spec... Alll this QQ about "go respec fire" realy tires me up too...
    And most rewarding thing is: "BH pug - noob, go spec fire, not frost - after fight being no.1 or 2 on dps list - noone says a word after linking dps meter" )

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by revulva View Post
    Thanks for running it again, Kuni. I will post the set on EJ... although I generally don't have much luck posting my theorycraft over there Mr. Robot uses stat weights so I think I'm on some sort of "ignore this guy's posts" list for many of them.
    May be true, but the chardev link is indeed better than what's currently accepted when using simcraft. They should take it regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac2 View Post
    Do we have any info on trinkets for frosties? Thinking of buying DM:Volcano instead of Whiching hourglass, but really hard to value them....
    Volcano is BiS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozmodeus View Post
    Want to start off with a huge THANK YOU to Kuni and all the contributors. I was growing very tired of hearing people tell me to respec. I love frost! Anyhow...I am a noob compared to most of the people posting on here, but I have a question. I never saw a definitive answer for how to reforge (or maybe I just missed it). I took a look at Kuni's toon and he has almost double the crit over haste. I have read the priority list...I am hit capped. My haste and crit are fairly close. Should I favor one over the other? I am not a hard core raider (actually have never raided), I figure I am a couple of weeks from trying it...still getting comfortable with heroics. Any suggestions on gear or reforging? I appreciate what you (Kuni) have done here. It is really nice having a place to point people to that are jumping on me for not going fire. Thanks again.

    My armory link...
    wont let me link it. Bogart on Eldre'Thalas (guild: Defenders of the pass).
    I'm statted the way I am due to my raid group having all crit buffs and having the 2p tier bonus. Crit is important until you hit the break point for your given gear and raid comp. You want 33.34% crit fully buffed on ice lance. 2p lets you get that earlier. Before you've hit any crit caps, reforge for crit by dumping haste and mastery. You're pretty much where my gear was before I started getting things off the VP vendor. Honestly though blue gear doesn't have the stat points to make it work for raids. You'll have to make due for a bit when you start raiding with sub-par DPS, but honestly that'll come from any mage spec. You lack the crit for either frost or fire and arcane needs a bigger mana bar. You can still pull 10-12k or so, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

    You're all quite welcome for this. I raided frost in wrath when I pugged raids as well. My rule was if I was top 2 for 10 mans and 3 for 25 mans damage, you don't get to complain about my spec. If you can play it well and pull numbers on par with everyone else, who's to say how you should play? Especially in pugs when people were still doing less than 5k with the 30% ICC buff...
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2011-03-28 at 10:11 PM.

  17. #177
    I'd like to say thanks too for a good thread which spelt some things out a little bit clearer than the posters at EJ, especially how to open on bosses with proper use of Cold Snap. I'll definitely be recommending any guildies who are wanting a frost mage to look here for tips and pointers.

    I ding'd 85 last Friday and got in my first heroic on Sunday (wife's birthday on Saturday) to be greeted by a dps warrior asking if I had a different spec:

    Me: Well kinda but I haven't glyphed it or played at 85 with it, I've just dinged.
    Warrior: R*tard
    Me: Thanks man, you too

    Went on to beat him on dps with a mixture of quest greens & blues and a couple of epics I had crafted for when I hit 85. So it's not all about the spec, it's definitely how you play. Rotation I've found is so important to keeping up good dps, along with managing fingers of frost properly. This thread will just help me get better.

  18. #178
    We updated the code on our site to take into account the 2 piece t11 bonus for frost mages. What it will do is actually bump up the weight on crit before the ice lance crit cap, then drop it down once you hit it. So, to use the site, you want to enter in the weight for crit as if you are ignoring that set bonus - it will do it in the background. So, here are the new results:
    http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/m...L3-s3w,A-h2g,O
    http://www.chardev.org/?profile=88853

    This set is actually even better than the last one we found, at least with SimC's default frost rotation.

    ---------- Post added 2011-03-30 at 09:56 AM ----------

    One could make an argument that locking in Theralion's Mirror instead of Bell of Enraging Resonance slightly increases DPS... but when I tested with the default rotation the increase was too slight to overcome the statistical differences in 10k iterations. Because of the interesting interaction with the crit caps that frost mages have, I think we can call the Bell and Mirror statistically equivalent in the context of the entire set.

    I am going to update our site with the stat weights that create this gear set next time I am able to push new weights to the server.

    ---------- Post added 2011-03-30 at 02:30 PM ----------

    The live site has been updated!
    Last edited by revulva; 2011-03-30 at 02:49 PM. Reason: spelling
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  19. #179
    could you do a frost pvp guide?

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by brak View Post
    could you do a frost pvp guide?
    I don't PVP worth crap, sorry.

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