Question about MindSpike

[Laurcian]

I am leveling my Priest now with the intentions of making it my main (I hate my druid now...so boring with the changes and Resto is bad). I am wondering if people find Mind Spike useful at all. In terms of leveling I could see it being ok, but in dungeon/raids it seems so bad to eat the DoTs. Please offer some type of explanation to your opinion so I can figure out if its worth while.

P.S. I really think it would have been cool to have Mind Spike act sort of like a Swiftmend ability: where it instantly does the damage of all the dots on the target but consumes them...of course it would need a 30sec or 1min CD but still would be way better.

[Zeuq]

Mind Spike is useful on low health targets. If your DoTs aren't going to have time to tick to make the cast time worth it, you're better off just throwing a couple Mindspikes. You'll probably find it particularly useful while leveling through some of the lower level zones; maybe not so much in places like Tol Barad and Twilight Highlands.

I play a Holy Priest, and I find a lot of use for it. In fact, doing Chakra->Smite then Mind Spike spam does more DPS for less mana than doing Chakra->Smite->Holy Fire->DoTs->Smite spam. So, I use it a lot when soloing.

[chunkycarl]

Mind spike forms almost a 2nd possiable rotation for Shadow particually. For example, if you are specced into paralysis in particular, you can open up with 3x Mind spikes, mind flay, back up a little, rince and repeat if nessisery (usually its not, that rotation is powerfull)
i find mind spike awsome at high level also.

[MoanaLisa]

Mind Spike is useful on low health targets. If your DoTs aren't going to have time to tick to make the cast time worth it, you're better off just throwing a couple Mindspikes. You'll probably find it particularly useful while leveling through some of the lower level zones; maybe not so much in places like Tol Barad and Twilight Highlands.

I play a Holy Priest, and I find a lot of use for it. In fact, doing Chakra->Smite then Mind Spike spam does more DPS for less mana than doing Chakra->Smite->Holy Fire->DoTs->Smite spam. So, I use it a lot when soloing.

Just to expand a little bit on this, Mind Spike is really all about target health and how long it's expected to survive. For as long as I've been a shadow priest, we've complained about not having some sort of nuke for targets that won't survive long enough to dot. Now we've got one.

In addition to using it on adds, it's potentially good for the burn phase of a boss fight. There's a point in every fight (if things are going well) where the boss won't survive much longer either and at that point a combination of SW-Death(2) with MSp(3) and MB can be a decent strategy if you need burst and dots have just about run their course anyway.

What MSp is not good for is inclusion in the standard rotation/priority system.

[Laurcian]

So to clarify...for dungeon bosses: Starting off and for the majority of the fight: VT, SWP, DP, SWD, MF (MB when orbs are up) is fine. But towards the end, say like 10% or less...just use Mind Spike, MB and MF?

For leveling I sorta just mash buttons for now (only level 82) and stuff just falls over and dies.

[Arlee]

So to clarify...for dungeon bosses: Starting off and for the majority of the fight: VT, SWP, DP, SWD, MF (MB when orbs are up) is fine. But towards the end, say like 10% or less...just use Mind Spike, MB and MF?

For leveling I sorta just mash buttons for now (only level 82) and stuff just falls over and dies.

And use shadow word:death on cd when a mob is at or under 25% health.

I also like Mind spike for those rare times where I have 3 orbs and my dots are pretty close to falling off anyways though that may just be something I like to do and others might not find it makes sense for them

[Laurcian]

So, I have been doing some testing. On dungeon bosses that have relatively little movement I have been doing about 7.5K dps (at level 83) using MS, MS, MS, MB, SWD, MS, MS, MS, MB, SWD rinse repeat. Using the "traditional" rotation of dots and MF and SWD and MB and dark archangel and such I only do about 6K max.

On fights that involve more movement I find that the damage is slightly in favor of the traditional rotation.

Further, I find mana to be FAR less of an issue using just MS, MB and SWD than if I use all my spells.

I also realize that I am only LV 83 and don't have all the haste and mastery and such capped that I should.

So what I am asking is that a LV 85 SPriest please test on a dummy or real situation and report back the difference in DPS using the "traditional" rotation and the "Look at me, I'm an Arcane Mage" rotation.

Thank you in advance and also thanks for all the input so far.

[Arlee]

Laurcian- Using a traditional rotation at lvl 85 I do 8k dps, whereas with the MS rotation that drops too 6k... also with the MS rotation I go oom super fast while with the traditional it takes more time thanks to having replenishment up. I personally am still low on haste though, however in certain fights like the drake in Vortex where you get a huge haste buff if you are doing it right I can pull 15k dps (with the traditional rotation). Which is a pretty clear indication to me that haste is uber important

[New]

Mind Spike, by design, was intended to be a quick way of doing damage when allowing full duration DOTs to tick to fruition was not possible. In heroics, I usually use Mind Spike, Mind Spike, Mind Blast, or Mind Spike, Mind Spike, Mind Spike, Mind Blast on trash. This usually nets around 8-9k DPS, but its only trash (meh). However, on boss fights which last later than the 15-24 seconds, a proper priority rotation always trumps the DPS of the Mind Spike + Mind Blast rotation, usually netting ~12-15k DPS.

I don't have exact figures to back this point up, but I assure you on fights targets lasting > 30 seconds, a traditional casting priority will prevail.

[Honicora]

I only recently turned 85 on my spriest so I am nowhere near the cap for stats but I see about a 1.5k dps loss when I use the "traditional rotation" over MS,MS,MS,MB. I do, however, go oom very fast. That is really only the case on trash pulls but I can drink as soon as we are done. When dealing with a boss I have to use archangle and abuse the heck out of the mana return talent for SWD (machocism?) but I normally dont have to worry about mana issues. With either rotation I feel like it is still hard to compete with other dps classes but that might change as I gear up.

[New]

With either rotation I feel like it is still hard to compete with other dps classes but that might change as I gear up.

Trust me, it will. However, at the start of a longer boss fight, you will see Death Knights and Hunters (and whoever else) explode out the gate doing a lot of DPS. But ~30 seconds in you will see yourself start to climb near the top. I feel competitive over a boss length fight.

[Laurcian]

Ok, So now at Level 84 this is what I have to report:

I have tried both rotations throughout the entire course of both Vortex Pinnacle and Stone Core (this data is only for bosses, trash pulls are just whatever).

In both instances I have found that using a rotation that starts by opening with 2 MF into Archangel then going MS, MS, MS, MB, SWD, MS, MS, MS, MB, MS, MS, MS, MB, SWD then throw 2 MF in when Archangel is off CD to get bonus damage and mana back has given me 26.7% higher DPS than using the traditional DoT style rotation of: VT, DP, SWP, SWD (every time its up), MF, MF, MF, MB (with 3 orbs).

The MS-->MB type rotation was averaging 6,495 and the "Traditional" SPriest rotation was about 5115 DPS.

Further, using the "new style" rotation was putting me at the top of the meter every time (by A LOT) and also near the top of the damage done meters ( I was beat by a Unholy DK 2 times in the same dungeon)

I realize that I am only level 84, but, I have heard from a few friends that they are experiencing the same thing...

Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.

P.S. AoE is garbage, but blue post today says that they will be fixing weak Mind Sear..YAY

[Seys*]

And use shadow word:death on cd when a mob is at or under 25% health.

I also like Mind spike for those rare times where I have 3 orbs and my dots are pretty close to falling off anyways though that may just be something I like to do and others might not find it makes sense for them

You´re shadow word pain sould never be ending if you´re doing it right, and even VT+DP ending at the same time is very rare and it would result with some mana loss which equals to less dps in long fights

[MoanaLisa]

Ok, So now at Level 84 this is what I have to report:

The MS-->MB type rotation was averaging 6,495 and the "Traditional" SPriest rotation was about 5115 DPS.

Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.

It's worth noting that your 84 results are actually lower by a bit than at 83.

83: 7.5 (MSp->MB) and ~6.0 (Traditional)
84: 6.5 (MSp->MB) and ~5.1 (Traditional)

I, for one, will be interested in how you actually do at 85.

I don't see a way to compare this with other spriest DPS reports when they're at 85 and you're not. For instance, if you get to 85 and come back saying that you're doing 8.8k with MS-->MB over 7.2k Traditional dot rotation, then that would be a problem (for you since that's quite a bit low). Post some logs when you can get them.

That said, it's interesting if inconclusive and maybe even a bit worrying. But the fights may be different and involve a lot more movement, etc.

[Laurcian]

Ok, So I dinged 85 early last night and after some crafting and dungeon grinding I started doing some heroics. This is my report:

iLevel: 342, hit capped.
Haste: 10.7%
Crit: 13.5%

DPS using the "new style" rotation in Heroic HoO, TolVir and Grim Batol: 11.515k on boss fights (average).

DPS using "traditional" rotation in the same heroics noted above: 9.956k (average).

Results on training dummies produced much the same results with average dps being about 18 to 21% higher using the new rotation.

For reference "new style rotation" for me is: Shadow Fiend--->2x MF-->Archangel, MS, MS, MS, MB, SWD, MS, MS, MS, MB, MS, MS, MS, MB, SWD....I then fill in with Shadow Fiend and 2x MF for Archangel when its off CD.

"Traditional rotation" for me is: VT, DP, SWP, Shadow Fiend (every time its off CD), SWD (every time its off CD), MF (til 3 orbs) --->MB, Refresh VT and DP as needed.

[Thyos]

So far what i have seen running just heroics and TB raid, I like to use a more traditional rotation.

Starting every pull with SW:P and fiend-VT,DP, MFx2, AA, (the only difference is i use my first MB at one orb to get the damage increase to dot and every MB on CD regardless of how many orbs i have up to keep the increase damage buff up) Fiend on every CD and SW every CD.
ussually i see about 11K+ depending on RNG and buffs.

The problem with the MS rotation is that you only have 3 abilities causing damage to the target the majority of the time, plus mana issues.

The only issue i see with the rotation i use is that if i don't get an orb by the time I MFx2 i need to wait to MB and it cuases a dps loss of about 1k average on dungeon boss fights, not much on raid bosses. I suppose with more haste and crit this will become a none issue.

[Danner]

Ah a healing priest, mind spike outperforms Smite notably, and has replaced that spell on my hotbars. I still need smite to enter the smite chakra state, but beyond that, mind spike wins - badly.

[Laurcian]

I was using Archangel for both rotations, I just forgot to type it.

I actually had been running into more mana issues using the traditional type rotation, my mana rarely fell below 40% using the MS type rotation and then it shoots up with Archangel.

If a fight has a ton of movement in it (like Mr. Tornado Dragon in Vortex Pinnacle) I use the traditional rotation so that I can have damage output from the dots.

"The problem with the MS rotation is that you only have 3 abilities causing damage to the target"
~~In my case I'm not sure how this is really important since the 3 spells I am using do 20% (on average) more damage and DPS than using 7 spells

As for healing, my heal spec is Disc so I use Smite pretty much all the time for evangelism and angelwings.