How viable are the 3 Rogue trees? My 2 cents 'bout it.

[Deleted]

Hey thar,

this is meant to be a discussion, not a 'ZOMFG BUFF MEH NAO PALEEZ' Thread. So please post with Brains turned on in here. (i visit those forums because i like the readable postings in here, but we cant be careful enough, can we? =) )

Okay, lets start with the Assassination Rogue.

i thnk thats by far the best specc for every aspect of the game right now. ive only played 7 games (6 wins, 1 lose by dc) with my mate yesterday, we hadnt the time to grow into higher ratings, so please tell me what you think about the following -

In PVP, it seems to work just fine. without preperation, or Shadowstep, Rogue is the most kiteable class. but luckilly, my mate is a Holy Paladin, and with Blessing of Freedom and Dispel, the problem seems to be mostly unnecessary. The Meleedamage is crap, but with 59%+ Poisondamage through Mastery, 12k Envenom's (i got a 28k crit yesterday with all Trinkets and Vendetta activated against a Hpaladin) and 4,5k ticking Deadly Poison , aswell as 2,xk Instant Poison hits, the damage is on par with other classes, as long as you can stick to your opponent. And yup, the PVE Damage is pretty good too, if you can, again, stick to the enemy for a longer time period. (doin' 12-13k with some buffs.)

So yeah, i like to be an assassin right now... the problem with that is...

that the other 2 trees are just useless right now.

Combat is nice for PVP in terms of CC, you can go out of Snare/Root by activating Sprint, and your Kick is Silencing for up to 3 seconds. But... its useless, because even out of a root, with a silenced Opponent, the healer can go to the desktop, turn on some music, and when he comes back, he barely lost 20% of his life.

Same Problem with Subtletly. If youre coming out of Stealth, you are Dangerous. Even 10 seconds after stealth, while you are ignoring 50% of your enemies Armor, you are dangerous. But after those 10 seconds of ignoring, youre a laugh. Any Rogue out there who didnt try Sub, specc it, go to a Mail/Plate wearer, and hit him with Backstab. if you CRIT for more than 4k with your strongest nonstealth ability, or more than 8k with Ambush while dancing, you can get a free Cookie for being something special, since most of the rogues out there will do less. (i have 10,5k AP btw, if that matters.)

So yeah, my 2 cents are - Assassination is fine. its mobile as a stone, but with the right mate, it works. the Damage is very sweet too!.. But Sub and Combat need a Damagebuff. A big one. Lolspree is hitting for maybe 15k, what is kinda lol for a skill with 2 minutes cooldown, and Sub's skills fail against people with just a bit armor in general.

So, thats my sight of things - do you agree? Or did you experience something completly different?

[SpiderTech]

I agree with our dps being laughable. ATM Rogue dps is the lowest of all the pure and hybrid melee classes.

In 3/4 Honor pvp gear damage is non existent when even facing a cloth char. The master tool tip for Sub increases the finishing move damage. Since only Eviscerate and rupture are considered to be finishing move this makes the tree to predictable. Smoke Bomb ability is ok against Healers and casters but does nothing against melee as they can simply walk into it to attack you. Even if you anticipate this , there is little the rogue can do to protect its self from inc damage.

Assignation is by far the best sustained dps tree. But for pvp your to easily kited by even deathknights.

The nerf to our stun mechanic is one of the reasons we are dieing as we cant characters from running off. So most pvp fights always seem to end up in a im chasing you fight. this takes away from our dps when you have to chase down a character.

BTW, since every class now has the ability to stun lock opponents, i think its time to remove the diminishing return on rogues. Not being able to use KP twice is annoying. But i guess Blizz-tard wants us to stand in front of a warrior swinging 20k over-powers when Hemo will crit for 1k with 12k atk power...

Well i hope you still have fun playing your rogue, and maybe in the future they will up our damage a little so we can stand toe to toe with melee classes like feral druids and Warriors.

[rzy]

you couldnt be MORE wrong about ShS - its the best arena spec for rogue, Prep = better survivability Premed = free quick recuperate or kidney.
ShD its self is INSANE burst a million times more than any mutilate rogue can pull
ShS is anti snare/kite and increased damage, Hemo + talent for 10% increased damgage then spam Backstab = more damage than muti

sub is so good for Survivability and damage its the most superior spec.

i dont want to use the l2play card but i think i miht have to if you think mutilate is better than sub.

[getz999]

My rogue used to be my main up until a few weeks after Wrath. I stuck with subtlety hoping for the utility, but the damage just wasn't there. Granted, I am horrible at pvp. But I knew what to do in certain situations and when to use CD's. I found mutilate spec yielded the best damage, but I was often kited around like a little chump.

[rzy]

My rogue used to be my main up until a few weeks after Wrath. I stuck with subtlety hoping for the utility, but the damage just wasn't there. Granted, I am horrible at pvp. But I knew what to do in certain situations and when to use CD's. I found mutilate spec yielded the best damage, but I was often kited around like a little chump.

Apparently pvp is all about dps? - i'd much rather have a ShS rogue in my team than a mutilate rogue the burst is more and more survivability like i said earlier

[Deleted]

May i ask how much AP you have and what poisons u used for sub Nyoh?

things are getting a bit strange now. i have 10,5k AP as Sub, and a 400 DPS 1.8 speed Mainhand right now (will retry sub when i get my 462 dps dagger next week).

lets be hnest at first, i didnt try Sub around THAT much since i play Mutilate with a Holy Paladin in 2v2, and if the heal is right, and he dispells all the snares, it becomes easier to stay in front of your enemy. okay, back to sub - my experience was, that (as i posted) that Sub does enormous damage until the 50% ARP buff runs out. i really did only 1,5 - 1,9k hits @ Plate wearers with Backstab, while i do 7k+ Mutilates, and Deadly Poison hits for almost 5k once 5 stacks are up, and Instant Poison hits with 2k+ too, when it proccs.

So yeah, i've experienced Sub to be very weak when longer in Open Combat, and Burst damage every Minute.. i dont know..
But well, as i said, i'll try it out again next week with a better weapon, but you were able to deal serious damage in Arenafights and even kill healers? Kinda hard to believe, imo. :<

[rzy]

May i ask how much AP you have and what poisons u used for sub Nyoh?

things are getting a bit strange now. i have 10,5k AP as Sub, and a 400 DPS 1.8 speed Mainhand right now (will retry sub when i get my 462 dps dagger next week).

lets be hnest at first, i didnt try Sub around THAT much since i play Mutilate with a Holy Paladin in 2v2, and if the heal is right, and he dispells all the snares, it becomes easier to stay in front of your enemy. okay, back to sub - my experience was, that (as i posted) that Sub does enormous damage until the 50% ARP buff runs out. i really did only 1,5 - 1,9k hits @ Plate wearers with Backstab, while i do 7k+ Mutilates, and Deadly Poison hits for almost 5k once 5 stacks are up, and Instant Poison hits with 2k+ too, when it proccs.

So yeah, i've experienced Sub to be very weak when longer in Open Combat, and Burst damage every Minute.. i dont know..
But well, as i said, i'll try it out again next week with a better weapon, but you were able to deal serious damage in Arenafights and even kill healers? Kinda hard to believe, imo. :<

my rogue currently 82 my 2s and 3s partner is a sub rogue and his burst in dance is amazing i play RL 2s and RLD 3s and when we setup for a kill most of the damage on any class is from him. And we dont kill healers we CC them and nuke DPS so much easier with the state of healers at the moment. highest ive seen a backstab from him was on another rogue and was 9.8k~ which isnt bad ofc goes down on plates thats where Expose armor comes in or rupture from Premed -> 2 point of either makes the fight alot easier thats how we handle warriors or DKs atm :P

EDIT - Nice to have a discussion with somebody about pvp on this pve forum xD

[Deleted]

hmh... i think my highest hit was a 8,5ish backstab actually, but yeah.. with the 10s ARpen buff... but your mate is in another situation as it seems. youre playing dual-DD, i play with a Healer, what strengthens the things i said earlier.

point 1 - i said the damage against Mail/Plate sucks. i said it with 2on2 Rogue+Healer in mind. and believe me, without the (dunno how often i mentioned this one already) 50% 10secs ARP Buff you have when you come out of stealth, youre screwed, if youre fighting against Warr+Pally. It turns around a 100% of course if a caster ist your mate. ShD is indeed very agile, and can react faster, which may give you an edge against the Person you want to nuke. (The warrior, meh thinkz?) but with a healer, it is simply impossible, because the overall-DPS is missing since the rogue alone has to be able to kill someone, and with 3k Crits on a Bear druid, you cannot do anything. And this isnt a lie, te damage really drops down when someone equips a Shield. (Expose Armor .. ? dunno, 12% of 50% = 44% left.)

I'll respecc Sub right now and jump into some battlegrounds, since i want to make some more use of shadowdance before i post more (nonsense?) about it.

But Rupture is to be left alone. with all bleed buffs, it deals 1,2k per hit. this is simply laughable, since it does almost the same damage like it did in wotlk.

- and yeah, <3 pvp discussions.

(Sorry for any grammatical mistakes or so, since i am not a native english speaker. ^^)

-EDIT could you give me the armory link of your mate? maybe imped Recuperate is nonsense and could be put into dps?

[rzy]

i was looking for armory like 10 mins ago - this new blizz armory is absolutly garbage and im not just disregarding your opinion im just coming from my experience ) i supose we will have to wait and see what Kalimist/Reckful/Grim ect are playing this season before judging properly, if i can find the armory with in the next 10 mins ill link it :P

Also having a bleed up on target increases all your damage by 10% from talents its amazing imo :P

[SpiderTech]

I run with druid/paliden rogue team me as sub. Yes we have prep and with the proper glyphs we have increased survivability over mut rogues. But the damage is not there. Using SD with ambush crits on any plate or chain class is terrible. It takes 4 ambushes to reach the amount of damage one hammer of wrath. In my battle group we have seen upwards to 45-55k. SnD has to be used, i personally have it as a macro into 2 separated cycles to regain energy.

And ShS only works if your not snared. mages,hunters,druids, Dks, are snare happy in my arenas. These teams really over CC its amazing. But thank god for macros or we would never win.

BTW Mut has the Exposes armor buff this is trump on high armor characters.

[Deleted]

Okay, i can harden the fact i've stated about armor.

i was able to ShD a lock for almost 50k Damage, which is.. much. but on the other hand, it was the half for a shaman. the lock ate Backstab's of more then 10k Damage (crit), the Shaman only got hit by 6k Crits.

So i stick to it - the damage against Cloth enemies.. is maybe even too much, while the damage against leather is very good. maybe perfect. when it comes to mail, it is impossible to kill a mail healer, or Plate randoms, if youre the only one dealing serious damage.

[blowurbrain]

BTW Mut has the Exposes armor buff this is trump on high armor characters.

why would you use expose armor when 90% of your dmg comes from poisons which bypass armor anyway??? there're better talents to get.

[SpiderTech]

Stop troling

[Ailoze]

Well, esp. about sub.. vs healer+dps team, when my teammate died, I was usually able to keep myself alive for over a minute, up to 3 minutes sometimes, sitting on the recuperate regen and different defensive cd's.. I feel like a tank sometimes tbh. But the damage is too low >.< gief rupture buff, it's damage is a joke atm. Then we will get a viable dot-oriented sub spec. And that is gonna be fun =)

[SpiderTech]

Okay, i can harden the fact i've stated about armor.

i was able to ShD a lock for almost 50k Damage, which is.. much. but on the other hand, it was the half for a shaman. the lock ate Backstab's of more then 10k Damage (crit), the Shaman only got hit by 6k Crits.

So i stick to it - the damage against Cloth enemies.. is maybe even too much, while the damage against leather is very good. maybe perfect. when it comes to mail, it is impossible to kill a mail healer, or Plate randoms, if youre the only one dealing serious damage.

Im sure you had to hit Ambush at least 3-4 times to get i that high..leaving you with no energy, blah blah..I have had locs confalg me for 50k with one spell...

[ryck69]

make shadow step a general rogue ability, I hate the fact that I have to play sub to use it, warriors get their heroic leap across the board, so let us get it across the board. that would solve any and all my complaints.

[SpiderTech]

I can agree to SdS being across the board, assassination and combat could benefit from kiting attempts.

[Deleted]

i've made a scene for a 'maybe' upcoming video. Theres a Priest. Discipine. 1300 Resilence. took me 3 Minutes to kill him... and then there was a DK. took him 7 seconds to kill the priest.

should i be worried now?

i've recently made some duels.
I kick everyones ass without resilence. But i get my ass kicked by every class (yes, even retribution Paladins) with some gear and resilence.