Is Arcane really that bad?

[krshna]

Hi, I was just wondering if Arcane is really as poor in comparison to the other two trees as people make it out to be. Talking about PvE DPS. Basically, I could be very happy going Frost DPS, but I know I will be going Frost PvP, and I would rather not be dual-specced Frost/Frost. I don't like Fire. For the sake of variety, I'm hoping that Arcane is going to work out.

I am not level capped yet, but no other spec at the moment can pump out raw single target damage like Arcane can. With Mage Armor up, and the ability to use a very mana-neutral rotation, I find that mana isn't an issue unless I want it to be. The spec obviously suffers in any AoE context. And I don't mean trash, Arcane Explosion does a reasonable amount of damage. But in boss Cleave situations, Arcane doesn't have a lot of options. But on true single target encounters, is Arcane really still that far behind? Is it the undeniable monotony of the spec that people don't like?

Basically I am looking for feedback from experienced Mages who have seen how the different specs are performing at 85. Wondering about the state of Arcane.

[ysoly]

Hi, I was just wondering if Arcane is really as poor in comparison to the other two trees as people make it out to be. Talking about PvE DPS. Basically, I could be very happy going Frost DPS, but I know I will be going Frost PvP, and I would rather not be dual-specced Frost/Frost. I don't like Fire. For the sake of variety, I'm hoping that Arcane is going to work out.

I am not level capped yet, but no other spec at the moment can pump out raw single target damage like Arcane can. With Mage Armor up, and the ability to use a very mana-neutral rotation, I find that mana isn't an issue unless I want it to be. The spec obviously suffers in any AoE context. And I don't mean trash, Arcane Explosion does a reasonable amount of damage. But in boss Cleave situations, Arcane doesn't have a lot of options. But on true single target encounters, is Arcane really still that far behind? Is it the undeniable monotony of the spec that people don't like?

Basically I am looking for feedback from experienced Mages who have seen how the different specs are performing at 85. Wondering about the state of Arcane.

http://manoutoftime.org/misc/sc403/r...372/basic.html

Tho this is in a perfect situation and perfect play, it does show the difference between specs.

[Deleted]

i started raiding as arcane on omnitron last week, and was snowed under on the meters by priests and feral druids etc, im sure there is away to play it well, but in my opinion fire is easier to use and less stressfull regarding mana, with free scorch and instant cast it makes fire the way to go

[Takarazuka]

I am not raiding yet so this is coming from a heroic 5-man perspective (slow people in the guild)... In 5-mans I am doing much better as arcane than frost. I tried frost out, but I wasn't getting the same results as other frost mages. I worked on my rotation a lot and totally understand the need for when to use the procs and what to watch for. Still, I get better overall damage and dps from arcane. IMO the people who say arcane is bad are still trying the old Wrath style of spam AB and win... which doesn't work anymore. You have to carefully manage your mana and play smart.

In the end tho... it's all up to what you deem most fun for you. I actually enjoy arcane (probably seems self loathing to some hehe) and will play it for as long as I can.

[Imnick]

It's not completely useless but it does have a lower maximum potential

[Cryssa]

Its actually right on the heels of Frost, though still behind fire. The assumption that Arcane is really bad originated from testing with SimulationCraft. There was actually a bug in this tool that prevented the Arcane simulation using Arcane Power.

Cant be bothered finding a link to post in question, but I'm sure if you spent some time googling you'll find it.

[Lumocolor]

i have some top 3 arcane mage parses on world of logs and i actually do less damage than tanks on some of those parses. The only reason they let me raid as arcane is because of the 3% damage buff and nobody else who could bring that buff wants to play their shitty spec that would supply it.

[Sarcasm]

Those who say "fire is better than arcane because I switched from arcane to fire and did more DPS" are simply playing arcane wrong.

It has been shown that arcane has a lower maximum potential, yes, but that is assuming a simulated situation with perfect variables. In a real-world setting, most players won't play their spec anywhere near its maximum potential (unless you're in a cutting-edge progression guild). Fire is easier to play to max potential than arcane, but if you know how to play arcane well, you can compete with those who are playing fire sort-of well.

tl;dr: If you've got skills, arcane is just as good as the others.

[takolin]

If you got skills, you'll get more out of fire as well which still makes it the better option.

The problem with arcane is: a lack of cleave damage (both frost and fire have some sort of cleave mechanic which helps on adds that can be cleaved), an AoE which requires you to be in range and horrible mobility.
If you check the sims, you'll see how arcane's damage plummets when you add movement.


TL;DR: arcane holds its own on a stationary fight but becomes nigh useless on a fight where you need to move.

[DirewolfX]

All this talk about maximum potential in a patchwerk setting is meaningless. The reality is that most raid fights require a lot of movement and reaction. Arcane just has terrible mobile DPS. The driving force behind Arcane DPS is stacking up the Arcane Blast debuff for big Arcane Blast hits. Arcane's big movement spell, Arcane Barrage, forces you to drop your stacks early or inconveniently, thus seriously damaging your DPS rotation. Alternatively, you could use Fire Blast or Ice Lance, but as off spec spells, they do significantly less damage. Meanwhile, both fire and frost have a large number of instant cast procs and fire has the amazing mobile scorch talent (while frost can force some of its procs or spam ice lance).

Furthermore, Arcane has the weakest AoE capability of the three specs (Arcane Explosion vs. Blizzard vs. fire's giant toolset of aoe destruction) and very little real utility that another spec can't do just as well (frost is better at slowing and survivability). It's only good utility talents are Arcane Tactics (retadins can do this) and cast speed debuff (warlocks can do this).

Go take a look at any simcraft output for movement or adds fights and you'll see Arcane fall further behind the other mage specs.

In later tiers we could see Arcane start to regain some standing, as it scales incredibly well with Intellect, and the stand-still DPS could start to make up for the lackluster movement DPS, but it seems unlikely it will surpass fire, due to fire's incredible critical strike scaling.

[Entbark]

snowed under on the meters by priests and feral druids etc

If the link ysoly posted is an accurate representation of class/spec maximum or even average dps, then you should be out-dpsing priests and ferals considering equal gear. I hesitate to bring up rotation/priorities since you are arcane, but make sure that you aren't running yourself oom too soon and maximizing your use of evocation, mana gems, and mana pots, if necessary (and if that is more of a dps increase than another type of pot).

[Deleted]

If you play Arcane correctly it can be the best mage spec out there, I usually play frost, but this mage in my guild will average around 15-16k DPS in heroics as arcane in average gear...

[Imnick]

If you play Arcane correctly it can be the best mage spec out there, I usually play frost, but this mage in my guild will average around 15-16k DPS in heroics as arcane in average gear...

No it can't.
Sim data > Comparing yourself to one other guy who might just be better than you at playing a mage.
Plus we're not really talking about heroics, but you will obviously always do most DPS in the spec you are best at playing.

[burntchomsky]

There seem to be a few big issues with arcane atm:
1. VERY limited casting on the move. Considering the amount of effort that seems to have gone into making all classes fairly viable at doing this in Cataclysm, I guess they just forgot arcane mages.
2. Lack of decent AOE. Arcane blast is a total joke, and compared to fire or frost (not to mention other classes like DKs) AOE potential.
3. Susceptibility of Evocation to interruption. This is a really big issue, because evocation is so important to arcane in a group/raiding atmosphere...you need to be able to gain back that mana after a burn phase. If the boss decides to come up with some way of interrupting that evocation, you can be pretty screwed.
4. Arcane's damage while stationary and at max mana just doesn't make up for any of the above limiting factors. It is going to pull similar dps numbers to other specs while at its supposed "maximum" potential.

[Arrogant]

As folks have said, it's not necessarily that Arcane is bad; Arcane suffers more than any other spec during mobile fights. Most Cataclysm bosses require mobility, so Arcane is ill-advised.

[theanomaly00]

In my experience, fire spec is very gear dependent. You need to have lots of crit and a pretty decent over-all gear score before fire starts to become your better dps choice. I do like the fire spec for its vastly superior mobility and aoe capabilites. I fully plan on raiding as fire once my gear can support it. For now I am sticking with arcane as I seem to be pulling much better numbers in heroics. Plus I have always been a fan of the arcane spec and enjoy having complete control over my mana pool.

I would continue playing arcane if they could fix its lack of mobility and ranged aoe. All they would have to do is add arcane dmg to blizzard (similar to frost fire orb), and remove the cool down from arcane barrage (and lower its damage for balance). Not a perfect solution but one I think they could implement fairly easily. I think it would be cool to be able to spam arcane barrage like the trash in vortex pinnacle.

[Cathisrad]

Arcane is just dull, It's a 2 button spam.
Fire is more challenging, which is why I prefer it.
I was arcane nearly all of wrath, right about until ICC came out.
I forced myself to play it, but I've been fire ever since.
It's also a lot more mobile, which is what you need in Cata.
It's not just "Sit there and DPS, sometimes move out of fire as well" anymore.
If you need to be moving as arcane - you're basically screwed. You're dependent on casting AB. And if you fail to because you need to be moving, you're DPS just goes down the drain.

[Deleted]

Well, perhaps, perhaps, perhaps - on few fights with not much movement if your guild use positioning with letting arcane mage(s) not move at all you might do better than others. But guess they would rather see you respecc.

[Shawaam]

Arcane isn't bad really. It have some usages. But it is really boring, immobile and lacks fun abilities in PvE. Works for PvP though.

Must explain what I mean with "Fun abilities". I mean like fire got lots of different proccs (Impact, hot streak, etc) and Frost got a huge control over mobs and they also got the biggest burst in game against non-stunnable mobs.

[Vlaria]

I'm in an 8/12 progression guild and we have two mages, myself being one of them. I play arcane on 90% of fights because our other mage doesn't know how. Arcane is viable on almost every fight except The Blind dragon as far as I'm concerned. While I can very likely pull more damage with fire, arcane does compete, and I do beat our fire mage relatively frequently as arcane. It's more about skill and rng tbh. if I pop ap/trinket and crit, I will chain 100k Ablasts, for 15seoncds? that's a lot, every 2minutes? that's a lot. sustained dps isn't bad either, it just lacks mobility when compared to moving scorch, but it's not worthless.