Big problem with expertise

[Skrototem]

No, apparently you don't get it. A single roll system means that you cannot miss a crit; an attack with an 8% miss chance and a 30% crit chance, will crit 30% of the time, hit 62% of the time, and miss 8% of the time.

If you had a 94% crit chance, then you'd start losing crits; you'd crit 92% of the time, hit 0% of the time, and miss 8% of the time.

Learn how WoW roll tables work before you spout off incorrect information please.

Hit is irrelevant to SD; haste actually increases your chance of SD uptime more than hit.

You obviously fail to grasp simple logic. If you're missing 8% of attacks, those attacks never happen, essentially removing any notion of crit from the entirity of the equation, 8% gone, vamoose, kaput. If you then have a 30% crit chance, you stand a 70% chance of critting, yes, but -8% of missed attacks, and 10% dodges/parries is crits being removed entirly from the equation (hits that don't land have exactly 0% chance of happening, hence effectively lowering your crit counts and subsequently SD procs), they don't even factor in when they stand a guaranteed chance of never happening. Please learn basic common sense before you spout off incorrect information please. Get it?

[Chilifan]

Lol? If you're missing an attack, you're missing an attack, which has a 30% chance of being a crit. So you already have a 70% chance not to crit, add onto that 18% chance of not hitting at all and you're looking at a big reduction in sd procs. Get it?

Oh the arrogance of the ignorant.

No, apparently you don't get it. A single roll system means that you cannot miss a crit; an attack with an 8% miss chance and a 30% crit chance, will crit 30% of the time, hit 62% of the time, and miss 8% of the time.

If you had a 94% crit chance, then you'd start losing crits; you'd crit 92% of the time, hit 0% of the time, and miss 8% of the time.

Learn how WoW roll tables work before you spout off incorrect information please.

Hit is irrelevant to SD; haste actually increases your chance of SD uptime more than hit.

Correct-a-mundo

Actually, hit chance IS relevant to crit chance. Yes, it's a single roll system, but by eleminating miss on the attack table you make more room for crit therefore upping your crit cap which is easily reached as feral. At least that's the way it was at level 70, and AFAIK they never changed anything as fundamentally as this since back then.

Technically you are right if we were still playing WotLK, but you are correcting no one. As you can see, the poster stated Hit is irrelevant to SD, and you are talking about hit and crit. The day a bear gets to 92% crit is the day you will be correct.
On another note SD has a 50% chance to proc on crit. so don't forget that there will be DR on crit keeping SD up.

[AetherMcLoud]

Technically you are right if we were still playing WotLK, but you are correcting no one.

That's why I didn't quote anyone

[kliffharry]

So as a cat what is the order of stats you should have first?

Agility.
Crit/Mastery?

Agi > Mastery > Crit > Haste > Hit/Exp

for now

[utopianh]

Actually, hit chance IS relevant to crit chance. Yes, it's a single roll system, but by eleminating miss on the attack table you make more room for crit therefore upping your crit cap which is easily reached as feral. At least that's the way it was at level 70, and AFAIK they never changed anything as fundamentally as this since back then.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table explains it in detail.

To hit crit soft cap (which is what we're talking about here), you'd need to be at (100-(22+8+15)) 55% crit assuming 0% hit and expertise, and assuming full parry chance, and full glancings. We at the first tier (and second) will not even be remotely in range of this value. It's possible on fourth expansion tier hit might factor into white swing SD procs, (or expertise), but they are totally irrelevant to this discussion, as I've said before.

---------- Post added 2010-12-22 at 05:52 AM ----------

You obviously fail to grasp simple logic. If you're missing 8% of attacks, those attacks never happen, essentially removing any notion of crit from the entirity of the equation, 8% gone, vamoose, kaput. If you then have a 30% crit chance, you stand a 70% chance of critting, yes, but -8% of missed attacks, and 10% dodges/parries is crits being removed entirly from the equation (hits that don't land have exactly 0% chance of happening, hence effectively lowering your crit counts and subsequently SD procs), they don't even factor in when they stand a guaranteed chance of never happening. Please learn basic common sense before you spout off incorrect information please. Get it?

If WoW worked on a two roll system, you'd be correct. It does not.
It does not check first if it's a hit or miss; it rolls once, and sees if you had a crit, hit, miss, parry or glancing blow. That "miss" you had, would have been a hit, if you had higher hit rating. In fact, since you're expending the same item weight in stats on hit instead of crit rating, you're lowering your SD proc chance by improving your hit chance, particularly in light of reforging.

If WoW worked on the two roll system, it would first check if it was a hit or miss; which would therefore reduce your crit chance by a total % of your hit chance (so lets say you had 30% crit, and 10% miss/parry/dodge, it would mean that you'd actually only have a 27% chance to crit). This is not how WoW works though.

Most MMOs work off a single roll table system in order to reduce command lag and total amount of communication required by the server and client. All rolls and such are handled server side to prevent hacking, so if every single time you made an attack or were hit by the enemy, the system had to first check if it's a hit or not, THEN check your crit rating; it would add tons of lag into the system.

[Fizzleshot]

You obviously fail to grasp simple logic. If you're missing 8% of attacks, those attacks never happen, essentially removing any notion of crit from the entirity of the equation, 8% gone, vamoose, kaput. If you then have a 30% crit chance, you stand a 70% chance of critting, yes, but -8% of missed attacks, and 10% dodges/parries is crits being removed entirly from the equation (hits that don't land have exactly 0% chance of happening, hence effectively lowering your crit counts and subsequently SD procs), they don't even factor in when they stand a guaranteed chance of never happening. Please learn basic common sense before you spout off incorrect information please. Get it?

It seems you don't even understand how the one roll system works in wow.

Why are the ignorant always the most vile and obnoxious about these things?

Saying "get it?" after every post is just horribly rude, and the irony a great source of amusement for the rest of us, as you obviously don't get it.

[Deng]

You do realise that savage defense is one of the best tanking mechanics for us right?

It's okay but saying that's the best tanking mech is pretty much overrated after the big nerfbat, I'd prefer block now. Dodge is still better (and passive) unless your healers wants you to be less spike'ish.

If you're missing 8% of attacks and 10% dodges/parries, you're losing 18% worth of hits that can proc savage defense, absorbing a large amount of damage with vengeance, and dodges/parries waste rage, result in nothing

This is not true and you were corrected on that one.

and also reduce threat/dps

And that's where you missed the part about the threat in this thread. If you have problems with threat then use common sense and by all means either change your rotation into more optimal and/or start getting expertise/hit, not before.

(yes i said DPS, tanks basically count as one nowadays anyway, since i'm doing up to 9k on single targets as a bear with full vengeance)

Should I be impressed? I'm doing the same (up to 12k with berserk every time it's up) and I'm not capped on exp/hit.

---------- Post added 2010-12-22 at 09:32 AM ----------

How could the charge part miss? You charging off into the distance?

It ain't about the charge part These two parts are:
- an interrupt (never misses)
- the debuff (that one can miss)

---------- Post added 2010-12-22 at 09:39 AM ----------

So as a cat what is the order of stats you should have first?

Agility.
Crit/Mastery?

And back to the point of the thread:

Primary: Agi
Secondary: Mastery

[mpm]

i dont quite get it with expertise.. ok, onec we get the bleed on mob its ok, tho when i was on magmaw and he was <25% i got like 4x dodge in a row with FB and my rip went down O_o with something like 7 exp.. unlucky? or is there a nice 1x number that is nice to be around with exp, coz 4me all that dodge/parry interupts rotation/cp generation etc.

[Deleted]

I'm at 0 expertise and don't have any problems doing great dps :P
Just pay good attention to your misses and react accordingly.