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  1. #61
    very very nice guide !!!

    maybe you should say that chainheal can heal 4 targets instead of its jumps 3 times. I thinks this is a better formulation .
    Last edited by Halu; 2011-01-04 at 11:59 PM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Eijnar View Post
    Could you give me a definition of a "better" shaman ? Since that does not include shamans from Ensidia, Paragon or Method - Not suggesting that they all are "amazing zomg", however, they are raiding content where they have to push there mana to the maximum and thereby a 177 mp5 increase is fucking amazing no matter how you spin it.

    What you keep forgetting is that a lot of guides only focus on pure HPS - Which is fucking retarded since you cannot calculate how to heal and heal most efficient. Healing isn't about being #1 on recount, healing is about keeping tanks, yourself, fellow healers, dps and maybe pets alive and you will get different assignments in regards to that. Sure, if you stand at 50% mana after each fight then you maybe can switch it, but then take a look: Did anyone die ? If so could you have saved him by using e.g. HS despite the fact it burns your mana? Do you use 8 healers for a fight which does not require more than 6 top 7 healers?
    You do realize that WS glyph, while it may seem like a good amount only returns enough mana for 2 Heals (GHW or HS) in a 6 min fight?? I fail to see how that outweighs any of the other glyphs in use, but id like to hear your rational behind it.

  3. #63
    Excellent guide.

    My 4 favorite "healing" spells: Cleanse Spirit. Purge. Wind Sheer. Gounding Totem. Add that with all the synergy shamans have, we make healing look good.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinettik View Post
    You do realize that WS glyph, while it may seem like a good amount only returns enough mana for 2 Heals (GHW or HS) in a 6 min fight?? I fail to see how that outweighs any of the other glyphs in use, but id like to hear your rational behind it.
    I do realize that and yes it is "only" 2124 mana pr. minute which roughly is equivalent to a HW - However, why do you want spirit since it only provides a marginal increase in your mana regeneration ? You could just reforge all your spirit to haste or crit for more output, but would that be a smart choice ? NO, unless you end every fight with +40% mana with no pot used, no people who have died and not using 1-2 to many healers for an encounter you want that extra regeneration. From a pure "mana is never an issue and I just want a high HPS" you would want to go without WS - Be my guest, however, is that a smart way to play just focusing on pure HPS? Not really.
    Herp derp.

  5. #65
    The Patient Madhoof's Avatar
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    Just to check I got it: you mean it's better to use the WS glyph and reforge some spirit (worth 177mp5) to haste/crit/mastery since it's a bigger increase of HPS/HPM than using ES/ELW/RT and getting that 177mp5 from spirit?
    R.A.I.D - Resto at its destiny


  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Willis View Post
    Excellent guide.

    My 4 favorite "healing" spells: Cleanse Spirit. Purge. Wind Sheer. Gounding Totem. Add that with all the synergy shamans have, we make healing look good.
    For 5mans this is a smart 1-liner. Those four spells do a lot more good in most 5man trash/boss-fights than our actual heals.
    SQUEAK.
    --(The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

  7. #67
    No - My point is that if you value HPS much higher than mp5 you might as well do that.

    I might not have been to clear in my post sorry about that.
    Last edited by Eijnar; 2011-01-05 at 10:56 AM. Reason: zmowz
    Herp derp.

  8. #68
    Warchief Whisperawr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    Well PvP is a whole different monster. You've got to make sure you're hit capped and have at least 200 spell penetration. However, in BG's you'll end up probably going Int or Spirit. Depends what you need more: throughput or longevity (or find a good balance!).
    Not even hit "capped" really I don't think. Most shamans are only gearing for 3-4% hit rating in PvP at the moment. Although, the reasoning behind this is probably because of the gear restrictions at the moment. Getting a piece of gear with hit rating, a hit rating enchant, and reforging limits us.
    Last edited by Whisperawr; 2011-01-05 at 01:45 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Eijnar View Post
    I do realize that and yes it is "only" 2124 mana pr. minute which roughly is equivalent to a HW
    This is actually a misconception of the mana regeneration model, and it provides much more benefit than "only" 2124 mana per minute. For each point of mana regeneration you accrue, it becomes more valuable than the last point, in that it extends your 'time until OOM' by a nonlinear factor. Essentially this means mana regeneration scales. Going from 0 to 200 MP5 is much different than going from 3000 to 3200 MP5. This is what is defined as effective mana.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eijnar View Post
    However, why do you want spirit since it only provides a marginal increase in your mana regeneration ? You could just reforge all your spirit to haste or crit for more output, but would that be a smart choice ?
    This is a rather inconsequential argument. You're comparing Primary Glyphs to Reforging. Again, because the mana regeneration model has higher returns as you stack higher amounts of mana regeneration, Reforging for Spirit until you have a comfortable amount is a smart choice. You don't want to use one of your Primary Glyphs to help you reach that comfortable amount. There is no amount of stats that can easily make up for the loss in HPS and utility that our selection of Primary Glyphs can do alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eijnar View Post
    NO, unless you end every fight with +40% mana with no pot used, no people who have died and not using 1-2 to many healers for an encounter you want that extra regeneration. From a pure "mana is never an issue and I just want a high HPS" you would want to go without WS - Be my guest, however, is that a smart way to play just focusing on pure HPS? Not really.
    No one here is advocating never regenerating a single point of mana. It's just in defense of actually using one of your three Primary Glyphs to that end. I believe that if you are having mana issues, then ultimately you should use the Water Shield glyph to assist in offsetting that delta, but you should absolutely intend to switch glyphs as soon as you can.

    Also if you are having mana issues, you likely can find a reason in the playstyle of others in your raid as you are learning bossfights and in your very own selection of spells, ensuring you use the correct one when necessary. When people create theory and whatnot, they do it from the perspective that you and your raiders are performing optimally. They don't make the assumption that you raid with a rogue who hasn't even keybound their interrupt yet, or what have you. In the same way, I am assuming you aren't having to use nearly as many Healing Surges to save the raid from reckless incidents.

  10. #70
    The Patient Madhoof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurinaux View Post
    This is actually a misconception of the mana regeneration model, and it provides much more benefit than "only" 2124 mana per minute. For each point of mana regeneration you accrue, it becomes more valuable than the last point, in that it extends your 'time until OOM' by a nonlinear factor. Essentially this means mana regeneration scales. Going from 0 to 200 MP5 is much different than going from 3000 to 3200 MP5. This is what is defined as effective mana.
    DO you have a source/proof for that? Since it's the first time a hear about that.
    R.A.I.D - Resto at its destiny


  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Eijnar View Post
    I do realize that and yes it is "only" 2124 mana pr. minute which roughly is equivalent to a HW - However, why do you want spirit since it only provides a marginal increase in your mana regeneration ? You could just reforge all your spirit to haste or crit for more output, but would that be a smart choice ? NO, unless you end every fight with +40% mana with no pot used, no people who have died and not using 1-2 to many healers for an encounter you want that extra regeneration. From a pure "mana is never an issue and I just want a high HPS" you would want to go without WS - Be my guest, however, is that a smart way to play just focusing on pure HPS? Not really.
    Your argument makes no sense. Im not advocating the effectiveness of spirit, but instead the effectiveness of an Mp5 glyph that gimps potential healing for the cost of 2 more casts (6 if their HWs). Lets just call that 60 - 80k worth of healing. Over a 6 min fight, any one of the other glyphs will surpass that by a wide margin. If you care to read any of my other posts, i talk about ending fights around 20% mana, which gives me a little bit of wiggle room in my healing selection should the need arise, using your analogy is absurd and your trying to make points without actually saying anything useful, thats not helping your argument. I sit around 2k Spirit now and dont go OOM, i just cant see the effective value of a glyph that does little in the way of actual healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurinaux View Post
    This is actually a misconception of the mana regeneration model, and it provides much more benefit than "only" 2124 mana per minute. For each point of mana regeneration you accrue, it becomes more valuable than the last point, in that it extends your 'time until OOM' by a nonlinear factor. Essentially this means mana regeneration scales. Going from 0 to 200 MP5 is much different than going from 3000 to 3200 MP5. This is what is defined as effective mana.
    Source? And your analogy is a poor one. Your essentially comparing the mana regen on a level 1 with a level 85. If instead you want to talk about the difference between 3k-3.2k and 3.2-3.4k then you can make an accurate comparison between them. I get what your saying though, while using this "Extra mana" (this assumes a point at which you will go OOM) your still gaining mana from regen, however i can use the 13k mana i gain in a 6 min fight from this glyph in 3 secs, during which time i gained no mana and still are OOM waiting on regen. Now, gaining that extra 200 Mp5 at this point means nothing since i have to wait 5 more secs to have enough mana to cast a big heal (HS or GHW), in which case im OOM again. All in all, great theory, but its practicality is lacking.

    In all honesty, id rather just be a better healer and learn to use mana efficiently than gimp the heals im actually using. There is no reason to go OOM with 3k Mp5 and proper MTT/Trinket usage apart from shit hitting the fan, which in that case id rather have better heals and HoTs than the hope to squeeze out 2 last heals at the end, just my opinion though.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Madhoof View Post
    DO you have a source/proof for that? Since it's the first time a hear about that.
    Lol, it's really just intuitive, but I suppose I can give a simple example.

    Assume you have a mana pool size of 10000 and Healing Wave costs 500 mana. Number of casts = 20. Time until OOM = 50 seconds.

    Now we've obtained 50 MP5:

    10000 - (500*X) + (50*X*2.5/5) = 0

    X = Number of Casts = 21.05 casts until OOM. Time until OOM = 52.625 seconds.

    Now we obtain 50 more MP5, totalling to 100 MP5:

    10000 - (500*X) + (100*X*2.5/5) = 0

    X = 22.22 casts until OOM. Time until OOM = 55.555 seconds.

    As you can see from 0 MP5 to 50 MP5 our time until OOM increased by 2.625 seconds. From 50 MP5 to 100 MP5 our time until OOM increased by 2.93 seconds. This is the scaling factor of mana regeneration, in that your time until OOM improves by each factor. You might say it only improved by 0.3 seconds, but you need to remember this is a very simple example that I used very insignificant numbers to just show you the object of mana regeneration's scaling. Remember in an actual environment you will have replenishment, mana tide totem, improved water shield procs, lightning bolt uptime, and other possibilities such as a mana potion or a hymn of hope that all contribute to an even more massive time until OOM differential.

  13. #73
    High Overlord kinreal's Avatar
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    i would just like to add,

    R.I.P. Cleansing totem
    O.o

  14. #74
    Maybe not - But since you do not have mana issues is there any chance you could post a log of how you are playing ? And is it 10 man or 25man ? Let me take our Nefarian kill this week where I ended up with having "gained" roughly 225000 mana and I was OOM at the end of the fight. My OH is around 20% which in a 25man raid environment isn't abnormal. Now it was about a 9 minute fight which equals about 20000 mana and I ended on 5% mana at the end of that fight and I'm sitting on 2225 spirit currently and when talking about 25man I am usually OOM or very very close at the end of an encounter. So please, show me a log so I can see how you avoid going OOM.

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-07 at 06:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurinaux View Post
    10000 - (500*X) + (50*X*2.5/5) = 0

    X = Number of Casts = 21.05 casts until OOM. Time until OOM = 52.625 seconds.
    Could you explain the last part of the equation ?
    Herp derp.

  15. #75
    10000 is obviously your starting mana pool. This is the baseline amount of mana from which all mana regeneration begins. =]

    500*X as I'm sure you could guess was the amount of mana you lose every time you cast a spell. This probably should come easily to understand.

    50*X*2.5/5 is the amount of mana you gain as you are casting a spell. 50 MP5 is your mana regeneration for that specific scenario, and a Healing Wave has a 2.5s cast time. 2.5/5*50 gives "25 Mana per 2.5 seconds" or "25 Mana per Healing Wave". Multiply this by the number of casts allotted and you account for that source of mana.

    '= 0' is the point at which you will no longer have mana. This will often give a decimal, which means mana left over that couldn't fit into another Healing Wave.

    The factor's cannot be used separately to determine specifics of mana control, because they are analog to one another.

    Let me know if there's still confusion. It is kind of hard for me to explain, because it is a pretty basic mathematical construct, and that isn't intended to be an insult, just a reason as to why my explanation may appear so simple or obvious and possibly unhelpful.

    If your mana pool starts at 500 mana:

    500 - 500X + 25X = 0

    X = 1.05 casts, Time until OOM = 2.63s. The formula assumes you are regenerating mana as you are casting, but as you can see, as expected with a mana pool size that allows only 1 cast, your time until OOM is your cast time exactly.

  16. #76
    177 mp5 is NOT worth the equivalent in spirit, since this value is what determines how OP your manatide totem is for you, so dont forge off spirit on the assumption the glyph will cover it.

  17. #77
    The Patient Asmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerdroppin View Post
    I'd have to disagee significantly with Haste being one of our best stats. Perhaps it may be again when mana is no longer an issue at all and we can spam heals without dropping below 75% regardless of how hard we try, but in current gear levels it's preferable to hit the breakpoints for our HOT's for the extra tic's and provides better utility for ourselves if we go with Crit. Like the poster above me mentioned, Haste scales horribly at this point because even if we stack it to no end, we'll barely get to the second HOT breakpoint and we wont shave much off of our cast times.
    mana isn't so big issue allready :P if you just smart use trinket+ tide, VP trinket+ JC trinket + tide = Success( loads of mana) theres really rare bosses when ive been taken to the point of CANT heal properly ( omnotron HC 25 where didin't have the issue after sitting even a bit in the regen cloud) and if had potion normaly does the trick till next tide expecially in 25 man raiding should have 2 resto shamans 1,5 min cd basicly for tides = haste is our good friend still !
    "Veni, vidi, vici"

    "I came, I saw, I conquered"

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by atimuscalamity View Post
    I would recommend you use glyph of Earthliving weapon over riptide glyph,
    .
    Umm, you should be using both, actually.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by necreus View Post
    I'd like to add that I found the Telluric Currents talent PAINFULLY underwhelming in current gear level. At the cost of 1400 mana and regenerating little more than 2000 mana, I found I regenerate mana a little faster just by standing still and not casting.

    Maybe with the right stats you can get more of a benefit out of this, but I find it a heck of a gamble to waste that time casting when you're low on mana and can even miss for no regen (good chance on a raid boss).
    Yes but think of it this way... even if ur only getting 600 mana back per lightning bolt... its approximately 1200mp5 as lightning bolt would have about a 2.2-2.3 second cast with haste... granted if ur targeting a raid boss there would be a dropoff on it due to lack of hit rating even still i would imagine its around 800-1000mp5 for ur downtime... but ill have to admit alot of times its hard to find the downtime to effectively benefit from this talent

  20. #80
    I tried a spec with telluric currents and tbh I didnt find it worth it.
    If I'm out of mana, then usually the other healers usually are as well, and whipe it anyways, it has never saved my raid.
    I find the mana regen so poor, it feels like I get more mana back from not casting for a bit.
    Might be my personaly feeling tough.

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