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  1. #21
    One thing I would like to point out regarding glyphs: Water Shield is mandatory with the current gear level and you would in my opinion want to switch it with ES if you are raiding 25man or ELW if it is 10man.
    Regarding crit vs. haste, well it is quite a lot about how you play your class and sorry to say - But you cannot use theory crafting in as wide degree to healing as for damage. Sure, you need a shit load to reach the next tick, but it still is a constantly HPS output increase whereas crit is, well, an unstable HPS increase since the majority of crits (when we talk HS / GHW) in raids will be overhealing (unless you sit as sole person on a tank which should never happen) and yes crit does increase you mana regn. but following that logic you would want Water Shield glyph in the first place so?
    Ancestral Swiftness - ofc. you do not NEED it, but it is an amazing utility and will save your arsh a lot of times + reduce the damage with e.g. damage debuffs on the raid if you are fast .

    And good job with making a guide =)
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  2. #22
    The Patient Madhoof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eijnar View Post
    Water Shield is mandatory with the current gear level
    I disagree (together with 99% of the shamans)
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  3. #23
    Very nice guide. I love the explanation of the different healing roles that Shamans can play!

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Madhoof View Post
    I disagree (together with 99% of the shamans)
    is the riptide glyph THAT good though? it gives you 3 additional ticks at best, right?

    as opposed to 125-ish mp5?

    at this gear level, i'm not really sure...

  5. #25
    The Patient Madhoof's Avatar
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    I'd rather say: the extra manareg from WS glyph shouldn't be necessary at this point, so take those 3 glyphs that push oyur output.

    PS. don't blame me for the 99%. What I wanted to express was: "far the majority, as far as I can say"
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Madhoof View Post
    I disagree (together with 99% of the shamans)
    Really ? Be my guest and show me since it is more or less the other way around - atleast if you look at guilds who push +10/12.

    What people tend to forget regarding riptide - It can be used on everyone every 6th second where as ES only can be used on ONE person. + Increased duration = more healing on Riptide + it gives you the ability to more or less keep 3 Riptides up if you know there is massive AoE damage incoming thereby already being ready to "boost" your next 2/3 (depending on haste and heroism) Chain Heals before Healing Rain comes of CD again. And Riptide should more or less always be on CD it is currently a decent chunk of your healing done.
    Herp derp.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Eijnar View Post
    Really ? Be my guest and show me since it is more or less the other way around - atleast if you look at guilds who push +10/12.

    What people tend to forget regarding riptide - It can be used on everyone every 6th second where as ES only can be used on ONE person. + Increased duration = more healing on Riptide + it gives you the ability to more or less keep 3 Riptides up if you know there is massive AoE damage incoming thereby already being ready to "boost" your next 2/3 (depending on haste and heroism) Chain Heals before Healing Rain comes of CD again. And Riptide should more or less always be on CD it is currently a decent chunk of your healing done.
    interesting. so you're ditching the earthshield glyph? that's a new one - i've seen people ditch riptide and ElW, but not ES. hm.

  8. #28
    Differs depending on fight and healing setup, but yes. I can only speak for myself, but my assignment is usually raid then with a holy pala + resto druid covering the tank with ofc. the other healers throwing in a heal or two. You can say that ES is one of the most effective spells with the least OH, but don't tell me the extra 20% saves the tank what it from my pov does is making more of the other healers heals be OH. And since I am usually on the raid it would be stupid not to boost my HPs in that region.
    But that is my POV.

    However, it will differ from 10man to 25man.
    Last edited by Eijnar; 2011-01-03 at 04:24 PM.
    Herp derp.

  9. #29
    Your view on stats differs a lot from my own. I value int much much more, saying it's somewhat on-par with crit is a baseless accusation, especially when bashing haste for poor scaling, seeing crit doesn't scale much better. This is not to say that crit is bad, in my opinion it's the most valuable secondary stat, even above spirit. Int is just way better, seeing how it affects sp, mana pools, spirit regen etc. 916 haste is enough, going beyond that is not worth it seeing healing is not a reaction game anymore.

    One error to fix though, chain heal heals 4 targets currently.
    Last edited by Illitti; 2011-01-03 at 04:34 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuuu Drengen View Post
    Great guide

    But haste is bad then? Im stacking haste because im tied of being back to heal slow. For me its important to heal fast even for a normal Healing Wave
    Haste is not bad, just bad to stack. I love casting fast as much as the next guy, but with how bad haste scales, and how much we can get, it's just not worth it. Think of it this way. A decent geared ICC shaman could have ~1300 haste, greatly improving castin speed. To get to that level now, we'd need something like 6000 haste. If you ignore all other stats, you might be able to push 2000. We can't stack enough haste to make he cast time reductions useful.

    Regarding the glyphs. I've killed all 12 normal mode bosses, and find water shield to be very underwhelming. Mainly, it doesn't scale. A flat 125 regen isn't that great, when were already pushing 3000 in combat regen. If it say made a % of our spiri attribute more to in combs regen or something, it'd be great. But things that don't scale, generally get left in the dust.

    To he person saying hey feel like they get more mana regen just standing around not casting in regards to TC, I think you're confused that there is no more 5 second rule. Just in combat and out of combat regen. So no casting does not increase your regen rate. TC is very situational, and can have good yields if used properly. Expect a nerf though, Blizz said they planned on it being mana neutral, not a regen mechanic.
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  11. #31
    The Lightbringer shadowkras's Avatar
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    There is a little error in the guide, ancestral swiftness gives 15% normal run walk speed bonus at 2/2, not 7%, maybe you didnt read the second rank tooltip.
    And ghost wolf is 30%, which doesnt stack with the talent, but can be increased by another 5% with a major glyph. Althought not necessary for ANY encounter, it does give you a wider margin for lag/error.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellmakerr View Post
    Very well written guide, and as a veteran Restoration shaman, I'll give you my honest feedback:

    I didn't learn much. Quite frankly, this guide could have been written at the start of Wotlk, with only a small amount of changes.

    I understand that the purpose of the guide is to "recruit" people to Restoration Shamans, and for that purpose, I'm sure it's a great guide. However, I had personally hoped for a little more in-depth guide, as I'm trying to be at the top of my game in Cataclysm. You touched a little bit on it when you were talking about which stats to prio, I just want more of that kind of information. Since Cata is still so fresh, such information (which stats are best) has been hard to come by.
    Yeah I know, I had actually hoped to go into much much more detail on things, I wrote this early in 4.0.1, updated it with 4.0.3, but yeah... tight on time.

    Although, I have to hand in the thesis next week, I reckon once I got that - argueably huge - step off my mind, I should be good on pouring a lot more content into it, specifically priorities and spell-specifics. As I said in the preface I'll shy from numbers for now but I definitely want to add more specific info.
    So it's not that I have it this "beginnerish" on purpose. Originally when I posted it to the official forums the plan was to heavily modify it over the following 3-8 weeks while I play more beta and then live, that pretty got put on hold as uni took over. The goal would be to update it to a point where it has clearly distinct "details"-sections for every subtopic, specifically I'd want to add per-spell sections for tricks / hints / situations, per-boss sections for healing handling and the affected talents, and some - albeit few - numbers to Talents and Stats. But still on the backburner until next week, sorry.

    One error to fix though, chain heal heals 4 targets currently.
    Heh, well that's more confusingly written on my part I suppose, or it depends on the reader. I say it jumpy 3 times, which to me reads that it heals 4 people, but I reckon that's a little bit more ambiguous than it'd have to be.

    Your view on stats differs a lot from my own. I value int much much more, saying it's somewhat on-par with crit is a baseless accusation, especially when bashing haste for poor scaling, seeing crit doesn't scale much better.
    Well as a crude rule it works like that, in that Crit helps with a lot of difficult early effects. Int is often quoted as the best stat but if you can't supply a tank with -10% damage taken, that's a lot of extra Int you'd need to make up for that. Now granted, we're talking tiny numers here (as Int vs Crit is only a problem on gems), and hence... well... not much of a difference. They're both extremely good stats assuming you got the 916 Haste and you're ok with your Spirit level. Until you hit the Crit level where you feel comfortable about AF-uptime, then as I said, drop it lower.
    I reckon this gets tricky once you got a Priest crosshealing. Hrm... another thing I can pin myself down to clarify once I got time for it, ty.

    I'd like to add that I found the Telluric Currents talent PAINFULLY underwhelming in current gear level. At the cost of 1400 mana and regenerating little more than 2000 mana, I found I regenerate mana a little faster just by standing still and not casting.
    It's not necessarily the stats...
    Magmaw or Omnitron have moments where you can exploit effects for extra damage, making Telluric a lot more powerful than it can be in "straight up" nuking. But yeah like most optional talents it's very "YMMV". I don't have it (right now), but it has moments where you stand there and giggle at the mana income other healers can't produce the way we do.

    Also, I think many raiding resto shaman would say Ancestral Resolve > Focused Insight. Damage Mitigation of any kind is a huge boon. Ancestral Swiftness... well, it's opinion, but the opinion again of most would be to take it. We can use the change in Boot enchant and I can't stress how many times insta-ghost wolf has saved me.
    Really? I needed Al'akir to like it, for the other bosses I tried so far I didn't see a huge deal from it. Yeah I can wolf out of things but that was all "Damn, I screwed up". But yeah I wrote a bit longer text there on purpose, a lot say it's Must-Have, I say it's your personal choice, it is extremely handy, but should not be something you require off a Shaman as other talents like Resolve have their place.

    I do have it though, if that says something about how much I like or dislike it personally :P


    Quote Originally Posted by shadowkras View Post
    There is a little error in the guide, ancestral swiftness gives 15% normal run walk speed bonus at 2/2, not 7%, maybe you didnt read the second rank tooltip.
    Oh hrm, another thing I should make more explicit - it's 7% above the bootenchant / metagem, so the "net" win is 7% since anyone who can't get runspeed from a talent or class ability should seriously invest into those.
    Last edited by Carighan; 2011-01-03 at 06:07 PM.
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  13. #33
    Excellent guide, well done!
    But like some have said, it did lack a bit of in-depth info.

  14. #34
    Nice guide.

    I think when you look at this guide you gotta ask yourself the question: Is this going to be a basic resto guide, or an advanced one.
    A basic guide focuses on what each ability does, what talents to pick, what stats are good, when to use what heal and maybe some practice examples.
    Advanced guides go deeper in on things, and examine the differences between ratings and why X is better than Y. What affects certain abilities, and what combinations in healing synergize well.

    I think that one is (and should remain) a basic guide in that way. Most people automatically divert to a forum like EJ anyway when they go for advanced concepts.
    I think adding advanced sections in this guide could potentially clusterf*ck it and make it overwhelming for new people and maybe contain too much trivial things for the more advanced players.

    --------

    As for the haste discussion. Some of the points seem to totally not make sense.

    Haste might not be as good as it used to be. But the essence of haste scaling itself hardly changed, if anything it scales with more things now that it affects hots as well.
    1% haste still affects casts the same way. You still need 50% haste to change a 1.5 second cast into a 1 second cast. The only difference is that you need more rating to get that 1 percent. But that is no different from crit and crit rating.
    Saying that 500 haste rating only gives you a few tenths to hundreds of a percentage when in wrath that same amount gave you several percent is of course nonsense since you also get more rating on gear. And you are comparing a final tier of wrath with a first tier of cata.

    Not saying people are wrong. Because it could be that haste is less desirable (although it still seems to be one of the best stats for a reliable and solid increase of your throughput), yet some of the arguments used here are really not making much sense.
    Last edited by Nythiz; 2011-01-03 at 06:24 PM.

  15. #35
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    A lot more interesting for Shamans than for other healers, this is usually better point-for-point than Intellect, but it depends on your gear and your healing role.
    If you want some fast&dirty&crude rule, use Haste (if close to 916) > Intellect ~= Crit* > Spirit > Haste, with Mastery being outside the system and Spirit having a minimum you need to satisfy first.
    I did see you clarified critical strike rating in your fast&dirty version, but as a nit-picky thing -- you may want to reword one of those as they're slightly contradictory.

    Well done, though.


    EDIT: Also if you wanted to include some dirty math regarding FI or TC, it's around. I'll dig it up and either post it or send directly to you. This is, of course, if you wanted to go into any more depth on the subject at all.
    Last edited by Radux; 2011-01-03 at 06:37 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxx View Post
    As for the haste discussion. Some of the points seem to totally not make sense.

    Haste might not be as good as it used to be. But the essence of haste scaling itself hardly changed, if anything it scales with more things now that it affects hots as well.
    1% haste still affects casts the same way. You still need 50% haste to change a 1.5 second cast into a 1 second cast. The only difference is that you need more rating to get that 1 percent. But that is no different from crit and crit rating.
    Saying that 500 haste rating only gives you a few tenths to hundreds of a percentage when in wrath that same amount gave you several percent is of course nonsense since you also get more rating on gear. And you are comparing a final tier of wrath with a first tier of cata.

    Not saying people are wrong. Because it could be that haste is less desirable (although it still seems to be one of the best stats for a reliable and solid increase of your throughput), yet some of the arguments used here are really not making much sense.
    I understand what you're saying about haste rating and the way it scales. The thing that makes it less than desirable (in mine and many others opinions), is that Blizzard made haste scale to a point where we can't get enough on gear to make it as effective. Not even comparing final tier of Wrath to the first tier of Cata, if I recall correctly (which, it was about 2 years ago), I was still packing 600 - 800 haste in Naxx. To get the same % increase on the first tier of Cata, you'd need 2500 - 3000 haste to get that same % increase. Which, unless you neglect every other stat, it just isn't happening.

    Now yes, crit rating and crit % scale the same way as haste. But, haste does 1 thing. It makes you cast faster (yes, it makes your HoTs tick extra, but I'm talking past the 917 threshold everyone should be aiming for). It doesn't interweave and add synergy to just about every other talent we have. Crit procs IWS. It procs AA. It procs Ancestral Healing. Plus, unlike Wrath, where the extra healing from crits were largely over healing, that no longer is the case. Crit just offers so much more than haste, and has great synergy with our other talents.

    Trust me, I love haste. I wish haste was still as good for us as it was. But since we can't even reach a fraction of the beginning %'s we could in WotLK (which, is what Blizzard wants), it's kind of falling to the leeway.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    EDIT: Also if you wanted to include some dirty math regarding FI or TC, it's around. I'll dig it up and either post it or send directly to you. This is, of course, if you wanted to go into any more depth on the subject at all.
    Hrm... definitely not doing such major reworks until next week, and then a bit undecided. My currently favoured idea is to expand it with "binary" info (TC excels in fights X, Y and Z due to mechanics A, B and C, while in fight M it's really useless because of H), instead of actual math. My reasoning would be that anyone who thinks "Hrm, I wonder what the numbers on TC are..." reflexively opens EJ, not mmo-champion or the official forums. On the other hand anyone who returns to Resto Shaman from say... playing in TBC, can evaluate the optional talents better with a list of where it synergizes with the fights and where it doesn't.
    But hrm... undecided. So yeah, thanks for the offer, but I doubt I'd have much time for it right now. Bleeeeeh. Also, I hate Java. And it hates me. :s
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  18. #38
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    Yeah that's cool not to include it. It was a pretty thorough guide so I wasn't sure how far down the rabbit hole you wanted to explore. Both talents are definitely useful in their own ways, as you point out.

  19. #39
    Your section about the ancestral swiftness is wrong, it grants 15% runspeed.
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  20. #40
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    @ Pope

    He clarified this already in a previous post. The 7% he mentioned meant that we had that much additional gain over anyone else via boot enchant or whatever.

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