Cata PVP Viability: The Joke that is Resto Druids vs Holy Paladins.

[Ooglor]

[Edited Note: The following is meant to apply to my battleground experience, not arenas as I have not done them yet post - Cata.]

I’ve been playing mmorgs since EQ beta back in 1998 and very seldom have I seen such a drastic disparity manifest after a new release as that between holy paladins and resto druids in the post Cata WOW PVP environment. Mind you, I play both a paladin and a druid and enjoy both. But here is what has happened in a nutshell.

Pre Cata, resto druids were aoe healing beasts, where they could roll endless hots on themselves and their PVP team members, and the relative strength of their heals was sufficient enough to overcome significant damage upon themselves even with modest resilience, thus why resto druids were given very little survivability talent relative to holy paladins.

Post Cata, hitpoint and dps pools have grown exponentially, far outpacing healing, thus drastically impacting the relative effectiveness of individual heal spells, especially hots. I.e., the comedy that is dropping a rejuv on a tank now that only moves their healthbar 10% upon completion as opposed to 30-40% pre Cata. Further, Blizzard has vastly increased mana intensiveness to most heal spells, hots especially, essentially hitting resto druids with a double whammy – “many of your heals are way less effective now, and they cost way more mana so you can’t use them as much.”

For PVE, this has worked well in my opinion. It has reintroduced challenge to the resto druid, where you have to actually use your brain to heal, or you go oom. Gone are the days of yawning through rolling 8 rejuvs on party members while you watch SportsCenter with your other eye. Enter the world of LBx3, spam nourish, and save your mana intensive hots and tree form for shit hitting the fan.

But the changes have created a vast disparity in the viability of resto druids vs holy paladins in [battleground] PVP. Rolling hots has been deeply nerfed due to it’s mana intensiveness and it’s minimized effectiveness relative to HP/DPS pools, essentially crippling the most viable function of a resto druid in PVP, but nothing has been added to compensate the resto druid in terms of survivability.
a. Wild Mushrooms? ROFL.
b. Switching to bear form and popping frenzied regeneration? Yay…. Can druids heal while doing this? Can they do much other than pop a quick stun and regenerate a bit? No. There simply is no comparison between holy paladin survivability and that of a resto druid now.
c. Bark skin? No better than Divine protection except yay you aren’t interrupted for a short period.
d. Remove curse? No better than Cleanse.
e. Shapeshift change to break root? No better than Hand of Freedom because, while HoF has a cooldown, it is compensated by the fact that the paladin can continue to heal and fill his roll during it’s use, as opposed to a shape shifted druid who can do nothing but run in travel form, do weak dps or minor stun in bear of cat form.
f. Cyclone? Nice, but long cast time, easily interruptable with diminishing marginal returns. Somewhat useless when 4 opponents stack dps against one friend or yourself.
g. Root? Easily breakable now by many classes without popping trinket.
h. MotW? No better than Kings.
i. Bear form stun? Not nearly as effective as Hammer of Justice – instant 6 second stun which keeps the paladin in full function and healing shape, unlike a resto druid in bear form who can’t heal a thing over than himself via Frenzed Regen.
j. Tree Form? Nice, but is this really any better than a paladin popping Avenging Wrath (all healing increased 20% for 20 seconds), GoTAKings (pet spawns and heals, for free, the most in need party member, be it the healer), and Divine Favor – increases the paladin’s spell haste and crit chance by 20% for 20 sec?
k. Innervate? Slightly better than Divine Plea, which replenishes 10% mana over 15 seconds. And in battlegrounds, not usually a make or break ability. Typically focused on and used between skirmishes.

On the other hand, let’s look at what holy paladins can also do to survive:
l. Plate armor increases physical damage mitigation vs leather.
m. Devotion Aura – increase armor for raid.
n. Resistance Aura – provides fire/frost/shadow resistance to all members, great vs mages/locks.
o. Aura Mastery – makes all friends immune to silence/interrupt for 6 seconds and increases ALL current aura effects by 100% for 6 seconds. Amazing when two holy paladins chain this, offering 12 seconds of tremendous boost to current resistances, armor, etc.
p. Hand of Protection – instantly make anyone including the paladin target immune to all physical attacks for 10 seconds. Druids have nothing close to this.
q. Hand of Sacrifice – Transfer 30% of the damage on the target to the holy paladin – a nice way to buffer damage on any party member in perild when other talents are on cooldown.
r. Divine Protection – 100% immunity for 8 second, and reduces paladin’s damage but NOT healing by 50% during that time. Druids have nothing close to this.
s. Lay On Hands – huge insta-heal with long cool down. Druids have nothing close to this.
t. Insta-cast Word of Glory and insta-cast Holy Shock (post Daybreak) – big insta heals with no cast time. Druids have nothing close to this. Every big non-HoT has a long cast time, save for an occasional nature’s swiftness use which requires an extra click first by the druid.

The counter argument would be something along the lines of how resto druids still have all of the HoTs available that afford them more groupwide healing than a paladin. Oh really?
a. What about a holy paladin with Beacon of Light (automatically heals a friend for 50% of the amount healed for no mana) and Protector of the Innocent (healing someone else automatically heals the paladin for a large percentage of the heal. No mana cost)? These two abilities have no down time, and essentially allow a paladin to heal THREE people (their target, the beacon target, and themselves) all for the price of ONE. The beacon heal and PoI heal cost nothing. With the cost of hots now, can a resto druid viably roll hots on more than 3 people including themselves for any extended period, given that they have to PAY MANA for ALL THREE? No. How about two paladins beaconing each other? Tried and tested for the ages, as effective then as it is now.
b. Toss in the Pallie’s own AOE heals – Light of Dawn/Holy Radiance.
c. Toss in Word of Glory – insta monster heals at zero mana cost. ZERO MANA COST. ZERO MANA COST. Nerfed already, but still.

This is my minor, stream of consciousness thesis. It’s not meant as a “here’s the facts, screw you if you disagree” type of post. It is meant more as this is what I think, and I post it not so much to educate, but more to see if someone can tell me where I am wrong or what I am missing. But for now, the PVP results have backed this up.

[SobeBauxite]

Discipline would like to have a word with you.

[BlueRising]

tl;dr but basically resto = lolol compared to before. Purge purge purge dead

[Deleted]

It's like the ravings of a madman.
First you tell us this is about pvp, then list devotion aura as a '+' for paladins, then go on about paladins chaining aura masterys after each other. Just what kind of arenas do you play?

"Innervate? No better than Divine Plea, which replenishes 10% mana over 15 seconds." Is my favourite bit though...

EDIT: Look, I get that your class might feel a bit underwhelming, especially after it's been so strong in pvp for a while now. However I don't get why you need to go bashing another class because yours isn't doing what its supposed to do.

[QQmoore]

you neglect one important thing. If a paladin is interrupted during a heal, they can't use *any* of their spells for the duration of the interrupt, including bubble. Swiftmend heals about the same as a 3 charge word of glory. Cyclone is extremely powerful as well, far better than an HoJ with a 1 min CD. Holy shock isn't exactly spammable, and while it's on CD they will *have* to cast something proper to keep someone up if there's a steady stream of damage, making them vulnerable to interrupt unless they pop a CD. Bubble can be shattering thrown/mass dispelled off, everything else from wings to HoF can be purged/spellstolen. Druids also have the ability to mix offensive spells with their healing now, keeping up insect swarm and moonfire on an enemy is one additional thing that needs to be dealt with. Paladins could spam exorcism but at a great risk to locking their whole tree out and that's about all the offensive ability a holy paladin has. Also innervate doesn't cut healing effectiveness in half like divine plea, making it better. Being able to heal w/o the risk of exposing urself to interrupts is what made druids so powerful in the past and continues to do so. The thought involved with strategies for healing in pve is intended to be applied to pvp as well, they want players to have a risk of running out of mana in pvp and healers can no longer sit and endlessly spam heal themselves to the point of invincibility against an enemy dpser. Paladins aren't invincible, classes like frost mages and shadow priests still can hammer them (and other healers) extremely hard with well timed interrupt/stun/nuke combos. As for druids, they are forcing you to use everything in your arsenal. Druids have good CC, roots, DoTs, HoTs, and their standard healing kit (nourish, regrowth, healing touch) is just as powerful as a priest or paladin. You should be using everything in your arsenal. Sometimes it'll be exactly what you need, in other cases something will have the advantage.

[Ooglor]

It's like the ravings of a madman.
First you tell us this is about pvp, then list devotion aura as a '+' for paladins, then go on about paladins chaining aura masterys after each other. Just what kind of arenas do you play?

"Innervate? No better than Divine Plea, which replenishes 10% mana over 15 seconds." Is my favourite bit though...

EDIT: Look, I get that your class might feel a bit underwhelming, especially after it's been so strong in pvp for a while now. However I don't get why you need to go bashing another class because yours isn't doing what its supposed to do.

Step away from WoW a bit and look into Reading Comprehension 101 friend. I clearly stated I play both a paladin and a druid. They are my two favorite classes. Go run a WoWArmory on Ooglor... Paladin. This "rant" is meant not so much to ask for paladin nerf. Nowhere do I ask for a holy paladin nerf. In fact I don't believe it is merited when you see so many other overpowered classes out there as well. If anything, it is merely a plea for insight so I can understand why my resto druid is utterly, and I mean utterly useless relative to some other healing classes in PVP.

And yeah you're right I was way off on Innervate vs Divine Plea. Innervate regens 20% mana vs DP regens 10% and cuts heals in half... huge difference. Like anyone really cares about either in the middle of a burst PVP dps skirmish... You got me there.... real... massive.... difference.....

---------- Post added 2010-12-22 at 05:55 PM ----------

you neglect one important thing. If a paladin is interrupted during a heal, they can't use *any* of their spells for the duration of the interrupt, including bubble. Swiftmend heals about the same as a 3 charge word of glory. Cyclone is extremely powerful as well, far better than an HoJ with a 1 min CD. Holy shock isn't exactly spammable, and while it's on CD they will *have* to cast something proper to keep someone up if there's a steady stream of damage, making them vulnerable to interrupt unless they pop a CD. Bubble can be shattering thrown/mass dispelled off, everything else from wings to HoF can be purged/spellstolen. Druids also have the ability to mix offensive spells with their healing now, keeping up insect swarm and moonfire on an enemy is one additional thing that needs to be dealt with. Paladins could spam exorcism but at a great risk to locking their whole tree out and that's about all the offensive ability a holy paladin has. Also innervate doesn't cut healing effectiveness in half like divine plea, making it better. Being able to heal w/o the risk of exposing urself to interrupts is what made druids so powerful in the past and continues to do so. The thought involved with strategies for healing in pve is intended to be applied to pvp as well, they want players to have a risk of running out of mana in pvp and healers can no longer sit and endlessly spam heal themselves to the point of invincibility against an enemy dpser. Paladins aren't invincible, classes like frost mages and shadow priests still can hammer them (and other healers) extremely hard with well timed interrupt/stun/nuke combos. As for druids, they are forcing you to use everything in your arsenal. Druids have good CC, roots, DoTs, HoTs, and their standard healing kit (nourish, regrowth, healing touch) is just as powerful as a priest or paladin. You should be using everything in your arsenal. Sometimes it'll be exactly what you need, in other cases something will have the advantage.

Many of your points offer minimal insight given the fact that PVP is frequently about burst dps and stacked dps against one opponent. Between Divine Protection, Hand of Protection and Lay On Hands, along with the Beacon/Protector of Innocent, 3 heals for the price of 1 dynamic, there is simply no comparison whatsoever between a paladin and a resto druid right now with how marginalized HoTs have become.

By the way I am focusing mainly on battlegrounds here, not arenas. Arenas are a different story but even there, there is little comparison. In battlegrounds if a good team which uses /assist dps decides to focus on one person, a holy paladin can instantly cancel their plans for a long period of time three different ways with DP, HoP or Lay On Hands, whereas a druid? Cannot do a thing. Can just kick back and watch that person or the druid himself, be burned down to nothing.

[Deleted]

And yeah you're right I was way off on Innervate vs Divine Plea. Innervate regens 20% mana vs DP regens 10%... huge difference. You got me there.... real... massive.... difference.....

Probably the biggest difference is that Innervate, since I last checked doesn't cause a 50% mortal strike effect on your heals, which is quite a considerable amount these days!

But aanyways. I might be a bit too protective of my (and your second) class, so pardon me.

[Diapewpew]

I think we all sometimes lose sight that every single class will have advantages over other classes in certain aspects, wether it'd be healing, dps, or tanking.

[Iniquity]

Honestly, you are just a bad player as a resto druid. There is NOTHING more to it than that.

Oh and btw, there is a big difference between 10% mana and 20%, you have NO experience in arena if you don't understand that.
Learn to use your root and cyclone spell properly, goddamnit it's pathetic that you even mention them both as weak.

Both paladins and druids are equally powerful depending on the setup, you should be ashamed of yourself for your post.

[Chiliman]

Discipline would like to have a word with you.

This is true.

j. Tree Form? Nice, but is this really any better than a paladin popping Avenging Wrath (all healing increased 20% for 20 seconds), Ardent Defender (pet spawns and heals, for free, the most in need party member, be it the healer), and Divine Favor – increases the paladin’s spell haste and crit chance by 20% for 20 sec?

Ardent Defender is at the bottom of the Prot tree, you are thinking of Guardian of the Ancient Kings.

[Gankz]

word. I play a resto druid and I must say, it is pretty bad compared to before.

although 2200 might have to speak otherwise. But I am good...Too bad shit got reset so i cant give my 2200 on armory

[torrok]

Innervate regens 20% mana vs DP regens 10%... huge difference. You got me there.... real... massive.... difference.....

You seem to be forgetting about the 50% less healing paladins do while divine plea is up...

[tekoix]

After reading this post, you clearly have no idea how to play either class at all, quite frankley half of what you posted was totally false and can be countered by a druid in many ways. Also you imply a pally can BoP, Bubble and LoH all at the same time, forebarence comes to mind. Lets add that cyclone is insane, has relatively no dr (no one has a clue what your talking about here) and even when you finally hit dr you tab and what do you know you can full cyclone the next target with no problem.

I would like to take a second here to say, please learn to play your class and then you could come up with valid points instead of throwing 90% of that out of you ass.

[Ooglor]

Honestly, you are just a bad player as a resto druid. There is NOTHING more to it than that.

Oh and btw, there is a big difference between 10% mana and 20%, you have NO experience in arena if you don't understand that.
Learn to use your root and cyclone spell properly, goddamnit it's pathetic that you even mention them both as weak.

Both paladins and druids are equally powerful depending on the setup, you should be ashamed of yourself for your post.

Admittedly, my post was meant more toward battlegrounds than toward arenas. But if you are referring to battlegrounds, you obviously have zero concept of the battleground dynamic. Most coordinated battlegrounds consist of several dps coordinating an attack on one target at a time, typically commencing with healers, and then moving to squishy casters. In this respect, root and cyclone have some utility, but nothing compared to teh survivability talents paladins offer. I won't stoop to your retarded level of "oh yeah I own you and you sux at pvpz." But I've played both druid and paladin long enough to feel I know what I speak of.

[Ooglor]

I should have edited my inital post to mean it applied to battlegrounds, not arenas, because most of my experience with cata has been via battlegrounds.

---------- Post added 2010-12-22 at 06:45 PM ----------

I think we all sometimes lose sight that every single class will have advantages over other classes in certain aspects, wether it'd be healing, dps, or tanking.

Not at all. I've been playing this game long enough to know certain classes advance, some fall behind, nerfs come, nerfs go, and it comes in waves. I have no doubt that at some point resto druids will recieve some love and will be brought back to viable for battlegrounds, but right now, they are beyond a joke compared to holy paladins.

---------- Post added 2010-12-22 at 06:49 PM ----------

Ooglor, stop trying to talk yourself out of a situation with, this time its PvE, now its Arena, now its BG..

"But I've played both druid and paladin long enough to feel I know what I speak of."
You have zero arenas done with ur paladin, only have 18k HKs, and u think you outsmart people with more, such as me having 115k HKs, Centurion playing paladin 6 years, and 2.5k arena...Cool story bro

No tard, I don't. I don't purport to be an expert. I merely state my opinion and ask for a reasoned explanation why I am wrong. But instead I get the obligatory holy paladins like yourself getting all protective and responding with the maturity and logic of a typical 15 year old. Trust me, I've seen posts like yours since you were probably still in diapers, so your idiocy does little to affect me. Now if you actually wish to make a reasoned counter argument, I'm all ears. Otherwise, finish with your grey noise and drive through. No one cares.

[Ooglor]

After reading this post, you clearly have no idea how to play either class at all, quite frankley half of what you posted was totally false and can be countered by a druid in many ways. Also you imply a pally can BoP, Bubble and LoH all at the same time, forebarence comes to mind. Lets add that cyclone is insane, has relatively no dr (no one has a clue what your talking about here) and even when you finally hit dr you tab and what do you know you can full cyclone the next target with no problem.

I would like to take a second here to say, please learn to play your class and then you could come up with valid points instead of throwing 90% of that out of you ass.

Where do I imply a pally can BoP/Bubble/LoH at the same time? Nowhere. Having tards like you unjustifiably tell me the answer to all my problems is L2P provides grey noise, and no substance whatsoever. You are a waste of oxygen right now. On the other hand, if you have a buddy who rocks his resto druid in battlegrounds, and wishes to correct me, I am very ready to be corrected and told I am wrong. But posts like yours miss the mark.

[Swizzle]

tl;dr but basically resto = lolol compared to before. Purge purge purge dead

So you spam purge a resto druid but not a frost mage? Double standard much?

[Ooglor]

LOL. I love you Vyil. Yeah the best way to start a "reasoned counter argument" is to start it by saying:

""Ahw pathetic druid finaly needs to l2p."

Yep, my apologies. I had no reason to get testy with your otherwise polite, reasona approach.

[Ciah]

I'll be honest, I was unimpressed by the analysis then I got to the point where you said you click on NS and I just kinda lol'd

My advice is to keybind and use your time practicing your healing sense. Resto really relies more than ever now on planning your heals ahead, if you cannot focus on proper positioning of yourself relative to everyone else on your team (probably because you are too busy clicking) then you will not be a good healing druid.

[Dartspluck]

Grats on not being the best anymore buddy.