[Lore] Shaman Race

[Antares]

I was in a group on Monday and the healer, a Tauren priest, mentioned that my totems were ugly. Somehow this lead to her commenting that she had no idea why the Earthen Ring would allow Goblins into their fold. My retort was that, although our approach is "unique" (we make deals with the Elements) at least we aren't like the Taunka - Forcing the Elements to do their bidding.

So which race do you think makes the least amount of sense as shaman and why?

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

goblen are the worst race for shamans really...how are they making deals with elementals? i dont think elementals want gold and silver


buut i havnt done quest chain yet so meh if im wrong

[Brodi]

It actually makes sense in a way. Shaman barter with the elements to gain their powers. Goblins just use different tactics of bartering to achieve the same result.

Exploiting the elements for fun and profit!

Also, mechanototems are awesome.

[Endus]

The Earthen Ring is a group of Shamans. It isn't all Shamans. That line of argument makes no sense, lore-wise.

Also, Shaman have always been about bending the elements to our will, rather than playing nice and asking politely. Most of the shaman totem quests, back in the day, were about proving to an elemental representative that we were strong enough to be worthy. We are entirely unlike the tree-hugging, natural-force-worshipping Druids. Goblins fit in fairly well, I'd say. Sure, it's a new path, but new paths aren't against the lore. Not unless the lore has specifically stated "there shall never be a path here".

New lore /= changing lore.

[grimkiller]

Goblins are experts at the art of bartering.
They have a way with words (along with an affinity to magic) that allows them to control the elements.

Shaman are not Earth lovers per se, their whole purpose is to kinda force the will of the elements to do their bidding.
Think of them as warlocks, but without demonic influence.

[Kilpi]

Also, Shaman have always been about bending the elements to our will, rather than playing nice and asking politely.

Nope. Go read Lord of the Clans and Rise of the Horde and you realise it's not like how you say. Elements can even say "go f... yourself" to shamans if they want.

---------- Post added 2010-12-23 at 04:40 PM ----------

Shaman are not Earth lovers per se, their whole purpose is to kinda force the will of the elements to do their bidding.
Think of them as warlocks, but without demonic influence.

Too bad it isn't like that. At least not for orcs. The whole warlock-thing among orcs started partly because Elements didn't want to help orcs any longer.

[Murderdoll]

I really dislike Dwarves as Shamans. Sure the Wildhammers are fellow elemental benders, however the traditional dwarf imagine is one of hand to hand combat. I can see the Wildhammers being fit for Enhance as a spec, but Elemental and Resto, I dont buy into that.

[Antares]

The Earthen Ring is a group of Shamans. It isn't all Shamans. That line of argument makes no sense, lore-wise.

I beg to differ. In all the books I've read and all my encounters in-game; all of the members I've seen are Shamans. The Earthen Ring is the counterpart to the Cenarian Circle.

Also, Shaman have always been about bending the elements to our will, rather than playing nice and asking politely. Most of the shaman totem quests, back in the day, were about proving to an elemental representative that we were strong enough to be worthy. We are entirely unlike the tree-hugging, natural-force-worshipping Druids.

As was mentioned, Shamans traditionally do not demand anything from the Elements. Drek'thar in Lord of The Clans points out to Thrall that no one is any position to demand anything of the Elements. These are primal, powerful forces. Some have been around since before the Old Gods "infected" Azeroth. They are very old, very powerful.

Goblins fit in fairly well, I'd say. Sure, it's a new path, but new paths aren't against the lore. Not unless the lore has specifically stated "there shall never be a path here".

Agreed.

My only problem is the Taunka. At least Goblins give the Elements respect. More or less. Usually. The Taunka see the Elements as tools. And a resource to be exploited. I really don't see how that fits with the Earthen Ring. And yet there are Taunka members. Even questgivers in-game. Personally, I think that after their initial welcome back into the Tauren fold, many Tauren would be thinking, "Oh, sh*t! What did we do? These guys don't show the Elements any respect at all!"

EDIT:

I think he meant that not ALL shamans belong to Earthen Ring. So Earthen Rings ideals =/= every shamans ideals.

Oh. I understand now. I apologize!

[Combatbutler]

My only problem is the Taunka. At least Goblins give the Elements respect. More or less. Usually. The Taunka see the Elements as tools. And a resource to be exploited. I really don't see how that fits with the Earthen Ring. And yet there are Taunka members. Even questgivers in-game. Personally, I think that after their initial welcome back into the Tauren fold, many Tauren would be thinking, "Oh, sh*t! What did we do? These guys don't show the Elements any respect at all!"

Why should the elementals be respected they were allied with the old gods thats why they were sealed on the elemental plane by the Titans in the first place. They are chaotic in nature and should not be trusted.

Also the most devoted shamans would be tauren after all they practiced shamanism far longer than most other races

[Antares]

Why should the elementals be respected they were allied with the old gods thats why they were sealed on the elemental plane by the Titans in the first place. They are chaotic in nature and should not be trusted.

Also the most devoted shamans would be tauren after all they practiced shamanism far longer than most other races

Tauren, yes. Taunka, no. And the orcs, prior to Kil'Jaeden's arrival, practiced shamanism, too, for a very long time. Who knows how long before teh Draenei arrived on Draenor.

The Elemental Lords allied with the Old Gods. Not the Elements themselves. At least according to the "Know Your Lore" series on WoW Insider.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

Also the most devoted shamans would be tauren after all they practiced shamanism far longer than most other races[/QUOTE]



i thought orcs were the first race lorewise to be shamans?

[Kilpi]

I beg to differ. In all the books I've read and all my encounters in-game; all of the members I've seen are Shamans. The Earthen Ring is the counterpart to the Cenarian Circle.

I think he ment that not ALL shamans belong to Earthen Ring. So Earthen Rings ideals =/= every shamans ideals.

[Goreatness]

I really dislike Dwarves as Shamans. Sure the Wildhammers are fellow elemental benders, however the traditional dwarf imagine is one of hand to hand combat. I can see the Wildhammers being fit for Enhance as a spec, but Elemental and Resto, I dont buy into that.

i hated that alien squids could be shamans. thank [the] god[s] for the wildhammers!

[Endus]

Nope. Go read Lord of the Clans and Rise of the Horde and you realise it's not like how you say. Elements can even say "go f... yourself" to shamans if they want.

Of course they can. That's the whole "bending to your will" bit. If you can't control the elemental powers, if you can't bind them to your will, they can do whatever they want and ignore you.

It's not about subjugating them as your slaves, either. But the entire history of the Elemental forces on Azeroth shows them to be supremely chaotic and fractious. That's sort of why Deathwing and the Old Gods are connected.

We're not fascist dictators, but we're not Ghandi, either. If an Elemental representative won't respect you unless you punch him in the face, then you punch him in the face. And tell him to get his act together and stop being a punk.

You know, like how Thrall basically did when he created the Horde. This idea is integral to Shamanhood.

I beg to differ. In all the books I've read and all my encounters in-game; all of the members I've seen are Shamans. The Earthen Ring is the counterpart to the Cenarian Circle.

Here's an analogy then. The Earthen Ring is to Shamans as the US Military is to Americans. Not all Americans are soldiers, but you can be in the US military unless you're American.

I'm not saying the Earthen Ring includes non-Shamans; they're clearly a Shamanistic group. But there's plenty, I'd even argue the majority of Shamans, who have no affiliation with the Earthen Ring whatsoever. They're just one subgroup, and they don't speak for all of us.

As was mentioned, Shamans traditionally do not demand anything from the Elements. Drek'thar in Lord of The Clans points out to Thrall that no one is any position to demand anything of the Elements. These are primal, powerful forces. Some have been around since before the Old Gods "infected" Azeroth. They are very old, very powerful.

That's not what I was saying.

Convincing them to ally with you is just as much "bending them to your will" as trying to force them. And the former is easier and carries much less risk of being punk-slapped by a near-God.

My only problem is the Taunka. At least Goblins give the Elements respect. More or less. Usually. The Taunka see the Elements as tools. And a resource to be exploited. I really don't see how that fits with the Earthen Ring. And yet there are Taunka members. Even questgivers in-game. Personally, I think that after their initial welcome back into the Tauren fold, many Tauren would be thinking, "Oh, sh*t! What did we do? These guys don't show the Elements any respect at all!"

Individual members don't necessarily follow the inclinations of the majority of their race. Taunka are people, too, not mindless clone-stamps of a single archetypal Taunka.

Also, again, Earthen Ring are a relatively small faction within the entirety of Shamanhood. They're influential and important, sure, because their members are significant and they're larger and more involved than most other factions. But that doesn't mean they are the definition of Shamans. They're just one faction.

[Antares]

Of course they can. That's the whole "bending to your will" bit. If you can't control the elemental powers, if you can't bind them to your will, they can do whatever they want and ignore you.

We're not fascist dictators, but we're not Ghandi, either. If an Elemental representative won't respect you unless you punch him in the face, then you punch him in the face. And tell him to get his act together and stop being a punk.

You know, like how Thrall basically did when he created the Horde. This idea is integral to Shamanhood.

I don't think so...And I don't see what you mean? Thrall didn't create the Horde by force. As always, he presents a logical argument and then let's others decide if they want to join or not. I really didn't take "Lord of the Clans" that way at all. I was under the impression that Shamanism is all about give and get; you give a little and you get a little. And you have to ask for permission. Of course, Thrall has been known to be forceful, as in "The Shattering" when he had to snuff the little flame that was burning Orgrimmar. But he made that decision under much duress and regretted it after.

Doesn't really seem like what you're saying. Unless...Perhaps you're taking the position of the Taunka? but I'm still a little lost as to what your argument is, then.

[Endus]

I don't think so...And I don't see what you mean? Thrall didn't create the Horde by force. As always, he presents a logical argument and then let's others decide if they want to join or not. I really didn't take "Lord of the Clans" that way at all.

You're confusing bending others to your will with forcing them to do what you want against their will. They aren't the same thing. Thrall had a force of personality about him that let him pull disparate peoples together into a single force. That's why a lot of Horde players see Garrosh as a bad followup; he lacks that same characteristic and it could lead to the Horde falling apart, without that force at their center binding them together. It's not about force of arms, it's about force of will, something entirely different. If you ask an Elemental if you could maybe, like, have some power, if he doesn't need it, that Elemental is going to have you for lunch.

I was under the impression that Shamanism is all about give and get; you give a little and you get a little. And you have to ask for permission.

That's a decidedly Goblin perspective on things; trading like for like.

To quote the official site's description of the class;
"Unlike some other mystics, shaman commune with forces that are not strictly benevolent. The elements are chaotic, and left to their own devices, they rage against one another in unending primal fury. It is the call of the shaman to bring balance to this chaos. Acting as moderators among earth, fire, water, and air, shaman summon totems that focus the elements to support the shaman’s allies or punish those who threaten them."

We're not, generally, trading for power. That's a warlock kind of deal. We're standing as "masters of the elements" (again, official lore description).

[Kilpi]

Of course they can. That's the whole "bending to your will" bit. If you can't control the elemental powers, if you can't bind them to your will, they can do whatever they want and ignore you.

It's not about subjugating them as your slaves, either. But the entire history of the Elemental forces on Azeroth shows them to be supremely chaotic and fractious. That's sort of why Deathwing and the Old Gods are connected.

We're not fascist dictators, but we're not Ghandi, either. If an Elemental representative won't respect you unless you punch him in the face, then you punch him in the face. And tell him to get his act together and stop being a punk.

You know, like how Thrall basically did when he created the Horde. This idea is integral to Shamanhood.

How did I miss that in Lord of the Clans.. I just finished reading it a week ago, and for some reason all I read from it was that shaman should never expect to get powers from elements, it should never be self-evident. At least that's how orcish shamanism worked. Everyone got rude in time of course and can be quite different now. But that's how it worked on Draenor before Kil'jaeden and that's how it worked when Thrall became a shaman.

[Antares]

You're confusing bending others to your will with forcing them to do what you want against their will. They aren't the same thing. Thrall had a force of personality about him that let him pull disparate peoples together into a single force. That's why a lot of Horde players see Garrosh as a bad followup; he lacks that same characteristic and it could lead to the Horde falling apart, without that force at their center binding them together. It's not about force of arms, it's about force of will, something entirely different. If you ask an Elemental if you could maybe, like, have some power, if he doesn't need it, that Elemental is going to have you for lunch.



That's a decidedly Goblin perspective on things; trading like for like.

To quote the official site's description of the class;
"Unlike some other mystics, shaman commune with forces that are not strictly benevolent. The elements are chaotic, and left to their own devices, they rage against one another in unending primal fury. It is the call of the shaman to bring balance to this chaos. Acting as moderators among earth, fire, water, and air, shaman summon totems that focus the elements to support the shaman’s allies or punish those who threaten them."

We're not, generally, trading for power. That's a warlock kind of deal. We're standing as "masters of the elements" (again, official lore description).

Really, I think we're in the same place, you and I. We're just arguing over semantics. We're peacekeepers, we're ambassadors to the Elements for our people. Sometimes, peacekeepers have to be forceful, but we still do so with everyone's best interests at heart (i.e. non-violently). The only reason we can punish our enemies is because of our relationship with the Elements. For the Tauren it is one of reverence, for Orcs deference, for Trolls worship (da voodoo!), for Draenei & Dwarves respect, for Goblins business and for Taunka domination.

[Manito]

I really dislike Dwarves as Shamans. Sure the Wildhammers are fellow elemental benders, however the traditional dwarf imagine is one of hand to hand combat. I can see the Wildhammers being fit for Enhance as a spec, but Elemental and Resto, I dont buy into that.

Right and every single human is exactly the same right? (irl)

[Deleted]

I really dislike Dwarves as Shamans. Sure the Wildhammers are fellow elemental benders, however the traditional dwarf imagine is one of hand to hand combat. I can see the Wildhammers being fit for Enhance as a spec, but Elemental and Resto, I dont buy into that.

The "image" you have of a race isn't a good argument.
Shaman specs don't really have big differences; they all are masters of the elements, just channeling their power in different ways. There isn't a reason why a shamanistic race would have limits on how to use their powers.
You'll see that when you compare shammys to for example, hunters & priests, where different specializations can be really different. Like Holy & Shadow. Hunter specs also are extremely varying; Beastmastery has druidic thoughts focusing on the animals, while a Marksmanship hunter could only concentrate on their skill with the ranged weapon and couldn't care less about having a pet. YOu cannot compare Rexxar & Sylvanas for example, as well as you can Thrall, Nobundo & about all the shamans there are.