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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    I don't get it. Are shadowpriests broken or is it a player issue?
    TBH it depends on the fight...

    @ Abandon
    That WoL link you gave showed a spriest doing 20k. remember that there is a phase of 100%( or more, i cant remember) more dmg dealt to magmaw, for like 20 seconds, and in that time spriests can start to throw giant numbers out, and raise their dps by alot.
    plus i guess his gear was pretty neat.

    To give you a picture of how much it can increase:

    In the Rajh fight i had 9 k dps.

    We got the recovery phase. ended wtih 15k dps, because i bursted: Troll Racial, Shadowfien / saved my Archangel for it.
    So close doubling my dps, and remember the guy you linked to, have several occasion to do this, and aoe.
    TBH that was a bad link you gave
    "When you want to succeed as bad as you want to breathe, then you'll be successful"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsSC2vx7zFQ

  2. #42
    Thanks for the info you know alot

  3. #43
    The Patient allaiva's Avatar
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    Mana issues are player based. On the non gimmick fights our guild sees our fire mage/survival hunter topping followed by a lock and then us two shadow priests somewhere around 14-15k at best moments. Both of us have to be careful about our mana, but I personally have never gone hard oom in a raid encounter, and I don't use dispersion except to save my ass from an oh shit moment. The people crying are those who don't care to pay attention to how the class needs to be played.

    Moving on and going well back to the OP here, best bet in a 5man is to honestly burst down a target, and get the spirit tap glyph while trying to double up on death hits below 25% to gain the 10% followed closely by a 12% bit of mana over the next few seconds. I still try to dot up multiple mobs, but you can't go balls crazy or you will run oom no matter what you do. As for ever hitting MS... don't in any normal rotation. Most useful moment i've ever used it for is on Omnitron Council to clear dots from the Fire and Lightning Constructs to avoid breaking or backlashing against their shields and causing excess damage on the raid during the encounter. Other than that i prefer to MF and maybe throw up Pain if the add is going to be up a bit longer. For Conclave and Omnitron this can help with keeping adds from other players and, again, limiting the damage upon your raid while letting you do nearly equal damage with much less mana.

    I hear too many people burning fiend at the start of a fight and then complain they go oom. Use it for regen when you need it, even with the reduced cd from MF crits, you're still wasting a tool that you can use to maximize your dps more than using it for it's own damage. If you can avoid a few Death casts above 25% by using fiend at a later moment you help yourself by being able to cast higher damage spells during that GCD than if you're still having to wait for fiend's cd from the start of the fight when you casted it.

    TLDR:
    If you have read up on Spriests, you should know what you're doing and not have any huge risk of running oom. Watch your casts and timings to best utilize the RESOURCE you have and treat it as such.

    (also as a note, the better logs to post would be from fights such as Atramedes where there are no adds or bonus damage phases to give a boost to the meters. Yes there's movement, but not a lot, and if it's changing your dps that much then you may need to take a look at how you watch your surroundings more.)
    Last edited by allaiva; 2010-12-26 at 06:39 AM. Reason: fixed one of what could be many spelling errors...

  4. #44
    The Patient
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    I don't have THAT much problem with Mana, need to use Shadow Fiend smart, toss some Shadow Word: Death while running and Dispersion when you know you'll take a good chunk of damage to both ease your mana and your healer(s).

    DPS can be tricky. Sometimes it's too low and sometimes it's awesome. At least for me. I think it breaks down to latency, clipping, our worthless mastery mechanics and so on. (Mastery is good, how it works isn't.).

    It's simply a matter of massive control requirements. If you can handle it, you'll be fine. If you can't, you'll suck. Basically. And when it comes to DPS, I've noticed a insane sensibility when it comes to Haste. Even slightest little piece of extra Haste is a major DPS boost.

    What needs to be done:
    - The Mastery. Seriously. Almost all other classes / specs have awesome masteries. And Shadow Priests mastery are so awful that we don't even want Mastery on our gear?!
    - Shadow Orbs / Harnessed Shadows - I mean come on, some times it takes 2-3 Mind Flays (4.78 secs to 7.17 secs @ 2037 haste) before even being able to gain any sort of use for our mastery.
    - Fix Mind Sear (really, like a month ago)
    - Glyph of Mind Spike (Major - No longer removes the casters damage over time spells, but reduces damage by 5-10%)
    - Change Paralysis to something like "Increase dispell resistance for Vampiric Touch, Devouring Plague and Shadow Word: Pain by 5%/10%"

    I'm not much of a PVPer, so don't know much more of how to fix that. But not being able to use Mind Spike for other than Vapors in Deadmines Heroics and critters around the world feels kind of wrong. And exiting Shadow Form to AoE as a Shadow Priest is simply unacceptable. (On mobs too low hp to multi-dot).

    That's everything that came up on my mind right now, bet it's more.

    Update
    Just killed Mobus with some guildies. Managed ~13k DPS and the fight took ~11 minutes. Never went completely oom.

    Kvaddad - Undead Shadow Priest @ Twilight's Hammer EU
    Last edited by jkw; 2010-12-26 at 12:11 PM. Reason: Added link to my character profile.
    -.-

  5. #45
    I have also felt some of this pain as a shadow priest, when is the best time to use shadowfiend?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Chillstream View Post
    You aren't the only caster with mana issues, as a boomkin I struggle to keep my mana up, somtimes i have to innervate myself at the healers dislike.
    Being 8/12 in raids right now, yes I do know how to play, this is just the way it is atm. I also have an SP, and he also has issues.

    Timing mana return CDs is very important .

    Big point is dont be afraid to use a mana potion, i carry alot with me. Rather not use a volcanic potion, cause OOM DPS is no DPS.

    They really want us all ending a boss with basicly 0 mana, as long as u make it to the end without going totaly OOM, that is fine.
    Well speaking of boomkins, the only problems I have with mana is when I have to break my single target rotation for an extended period of time (outside of movement moonfire spam), because euphoria isnt proccing. Besides that, I usually only go through half my mana pool every 3 min, which, is our innervate cd.

    OT: Never played a shadow priest, but I am guessing most of this has to deal with really high mana costs of spells?
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Ford
    Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably why few engage in it.
    This explains a lot.

  7. #47
    The Patient allaiva's Avatar
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    Boom: spell costs are high, just getting our opening dots up to start a fight will bring us down to around 75% mana and it just keeps dropping from there if you don't pay attention.

    Moondrel: I generally use my fiend the second time i'm at around 70% mana (first time i'll use archangel usually) when there's a good moment for regen and no target switching to get it confuzzled as a starting time for first pop. After that I'll usually use it nearly on cd. Here, when i say nearly, i mean if lust is coming up i'll wait til then to use it so i can let it benefit from the added haste. RL is a spriest as well so he'll give a 3-2-1 usually so people like myself and him can hit fiends and allow others to get temp pets out (aka shamans and dks etc). Also a good time to use it is if you see the buff from a friendly priest pop hymn of hope, or even just before you hit hymn yourself. I use it mostly for the healers when they need it as opposed to using it for myself, but that's not to say i won't abuse the mechanics where i can either =)
    Last edited by allaiva; 2010-12-26 at 04:42 PM. Reason: included archangel above.

  8. #48
    Yes I really feel as though I have been a support healer to help out in those oh crap moments for other healers. I wasn't going to mention hymm but phew I do use it. Thanks =)

  9. #49
    Mana should not be an issue, if you ever go low you can always SW to regain 10% of your mana.

    Also the people who say that it doesn't get better with gear don't have a clue. More Haste/Crit -> quicker Shadowfiend CD, more Intellect -> more Mana from Archangel, Masochism, Shadowfiend and Replenishment.

  10. #50
    Broken? Hardly. Sure, when I was in 333 and lower blues, mana sucked hard for me. Now I can pretty much multi dot trash pulls and never oom. Tips:

    1) Get all 346 blues and all the craftable/boe/rep 359 blues you can get, then it's easy mode again. If you're in 333 and have mana issues, it's a gear issue, not a class issue.

    2) Yes, yes, it's a dps loss, but you can SWD at any time to get mana back via Masochism. I don't need to at my gear level, but I did at 333.

    3) Shadowfiend at start, after you pop your orb with MB. It allows you to cast your high cost dots, and get your evangelism stacks up all for free, and you'll have it again for a second time later in the fight when you're lower on mana. Don't save it for a rainy day.

    4) Dispersion/Hymn of Hope. Yes, yes, a dps loss, but utilized correctly, the regen is huge. No real reason to ever oom when you have these spells and 333 ish gear.

    5) Inner Will. Use it until you have enough gear. 15% less mana cost on our 2 most expensive spells, plus 15% less on our spam spell.

    Yes, some of these tips will LOWER your dps, but guess what, an empty mana bar will lower it more. Throw in the fact that you can pretty much ignore most of those when you have 346 blues and a few 359 epics, and I'd argue we're hardly broken.

  11. #51
    The Patient sasslefrassed's Avatar
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    I usually top in most fights that don't have some darn Hunter or Rogue in the group. I also am usually the last to run out of Mana.
    Make sure you are talented into Dark Archangel, it is very good and restores 5% of your total mana each stack. I start out a fight with VT, DP, SW:P, then MB if I have an orb up. At around 75% on bosses, I pop Dark Archangel to get back to full. At around 60%, I'll pop sfiend. Then Dark archangel is usually up again before I hit 50%. If you're a Belf, you also have Arcane Torrent. You just have to get used to popping your mana cds. That's why they are there. I tend to use them on cooldown on boss fights and I usually end the fight above 50% mana. In extreme cases where I drop below 30%, or even just if there's a part of the fight where I am not doing any dps (second to last boss of Lost City, when he repents), I'll pop Dispersion.


    Edit: ON single target or bosses with few adds, I never go oom. However, with bosses with tons of adds, my mana drains pretty quickly. When I'm in guild runs, my guildmates know this and usually let me stay on the boss in such situations (usually a mage or lock in the group, can do aoe much better)
    Stelmaria | Phantasien

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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    I don't get it. Are shadowpriests broken or is it a player issue?
    It's a player issue. I play Spriest, and I'll be the first to admit I was whining when Cata first dropped. However, I learned to not pop a shield and add SW Death into my rotation for mana regen, and using Mind Flay + Archangel for another 15% mana and I've never had a problem since. We have so many ways to get mana back (another if you're a BE like me who has Arcane Torrent) that players are ignoring or simply aren't aware of. Don't believe threads like this.

  13. #53
    The Patient allaiva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellion View Post
    It's a player issue. I play Spriest, and I'll be the first to admit I was whining when Cata first dropped. However, I learned to not pop a shield and add SW Death into my rotation for mana regen, and using Mind Flay + Archangel for another 15% mana and I've never had a problem since. We have so many ways to get mana back (another if you're a BE like me who has Arcane Torrent) that players are ignoring or simply aren't aware of. Don't believe threads like this.
    While mana may not be a problem for most like myself and others, the point being made here is that the class requires a lot of mana to keep it going, not that you're always oom. Most of the thread has been a sorta help thread on ways to stay away from being oom as opposed to going oom.

    While many have mentioned it is a player issue (well known fact), the fact that opening all your dots on a target bringing you to 75% is kinda shocking for many, but a simple Archangel will top you back off. Again the main point is that the spells require lots of mana, but there's many more ways to obtain it back during the fight and discussing how we and others do this helps every get better by even the slightest bit.

    As for your post personally, I think I know what you're trying to make out by saying Archangel restores up to 15% mana (per cast), the best return is from 2 casts to gain 25% mana. Why waste that 10% on a free cd that you're going to press anyways for the damage reduction, and in doing so early will also reduce your damage output as well. If you don't have the mana for two mind flays, you've not managed your mana well enough in the first place and (rightfully) will be hampered in your dps abilities.

    Sassle provides examples of points where to use you're cd's intelligently. You choose to just say "with this, you win" which has been said by many before you.

    With that I must say I do miss Arcane Torrent at points, but the static 1% haste and other benefits from being goblin has proved useful to myself in more than purely a dps output. For those belves out there, using Arcane torrent on CD is a great way to keep mana higher. At this point I'm probably beating a dead horse, but I cannot leave out how useful Hymn of Hope is for keeping mana up for not only yourself, but the rest of your raid. I have a power aura set up to show when that sucker procs on me so that if a mana cd is coming off I'm sure to press it as opposed to saving it for a few seconds to see where it's most beneficial to me (seen spriests pop their fiends in dreamwalker when all adds are down >.> i promptly questioned their logic).
    6% of 115 is greater than 6% of 100 no matter how small the difference may be.

  14. #54
    Mechagnome Cadwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    I don't get it. Are shadowpriests broken or is it a player issue?
    player issue .... this game takes skill... oh wait....
    but ya it's still a player issue and does take time to figure out

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    I don't get it. Are shadowpriests broken or is it a player issue?
    Yes Shadow Priests are broken, I see the number of players in this thread are claiming that it is a player issue and I realise how much of our playerbase really does not understand the class or where we are in raid performance.

    1. Unless you SWD, ANY multidotting will send you oom.
    2. Divine Hymm is a terrible raid cooldown atm.
    3. Empowered Shadows in ludicrously RNG and keeping it up in a raid situation is anything but skilled.
    4. Our Highest DPS spell removes our dots and isnt useful as a 'trash killer'.
    5. Alot of classes have scaling issues right now, Fury needs Hit, Mages need Crit... etc..etc..
    Shadow priests dont have this issue and when the time comes, we'll fall even further behind.
    Last edited by Strykie; 2010-12-27 at 08:02 AM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    I don't get it. Are shadowpriests broken or is it a player issue?
    It's not broken, so it is a player issue... (broken, of course, being the same as 3.3.x Ret's when they were only Blood Elves...)

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kootz View Post
    To the opp...

    My current experience goes as this..

    every caty 5 man regular cleared.
    every caty 5 man heroic cleared.
    Downed 25 man magmaw.
    downed 25 man omni
    downed 25 man malorak
    and downed 25 man sound boss dragon guy i am not sure what his name is..

    So yes i have some decent gear and quite a bit of raid experience so far this expansion



    trust me when i say this.. it really never gets better... our mana efficency sucks no matter how many cooldowns we blow and no matter how many globals we waste on 2k damage shadow word deaths..

    I belive one poster said it best "im tired of seeing my mana bar go up and down like a roller coaster"

    and that is the simple truth.. just casting an opener will take you to 60% mana..

    the state of shadow pve is ABYSMAL when compared to every other class in the game.. poor damage single and multi target.. poor mana efficency and now thanks to the ve nerfs next to zero survivability.. .we have ZERO utility and we are effectively a burden on any raid..

    sure a shadow priest can enter a raid with a guild full of scrubs and do decent on the meters (about midway). but does that mean that shadow is fine? nope.. it means that your playing with scrubs if you think that.. because once you play with people who actually take progression seriously you will discover how terrible shadow really is..

    i will soon be benching my priest in favor of my warrior for raiding... its simply not worth the hassle to play a priest atm.
    Really? My mana seems fine, you just need to learn how to manage it. Generally SW: D when on the move or in between casts when you can will do wonders.

  18. #58
    in order o be a manaholic the word would have to be manahol. alcohol - alcoholic

  19. #59
    Mechagnome Yavannie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amipathetic View Post
    in order o be a manaholic the word would have to be manahol. alcohol - alcoholic
    Yes, that is the origin of all colloquial nouns ending in -holic. Such as chocoholic, shopaholic etc. It's called a back formation and there's nothing wrong with making new, relevant ones.

  20. #60
    Deleted
    The mana issue gets better and better as your gear improves. And as many others in the thread has stated Shadow Word: Death is more or less mandatory. In the few fights I've experienced so far I've only gone oom if I've messed up my rotation or if I had to recast my dots too often (which is linked to messing up).

    I saw someone mention the omnitron defense system as a mana-heavy fight, this is partially true.. But the fight itself has mechanics to counter that. Stand in Archanatron's shiny vortex and you'll see what I'm getting at.

    But don't forget that many bosses now have AoE abilities that take away more than 10% of your HP, so the Masochism talent really helps out there.

    TL;DR:
    Yes, Shadow Priests need to manage their mana more then in Wotlk, but I wouldn't call us broken. Only more interesting.
    Last edited by mmoc56ad7363be; 2010-12-27 at 10:43 AM.

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