[TV] Doctor Who

[Arrowstormen]

Don't judge a book by its cover
I guess daleks are robots too?

They do not consider themselves as robots, they are better humans. Upgraded humans. You will be upgraded.

Most of it is. The Dalek itself is just a small squid-thing.

I consider Cybermen to be robot in almost the same way as the ones from Deep Breath were. One just went from human to robot and the other the opposite way.

[Deleted]

You will be upgraded.

My body is ready!

[Kelimbror]

Most of it is. The Dalek itself is just a small squid-thing.

Well as we learned in Into the Dalek, even the machine looking parts are actually a part of their organism. I had always that that the TMNT villains stuffed inside were the creature, but now I have to rethink that. If it feels pain and releases antibodies all throughout it's casing, then it's almost like their version of an organic Turtle Shell. It appears to be a lifeless structure, but apparently that's not the case. In honesty they probably just play with what isn't a *insert creature* when it is convenient...like in that episode.

[Elim Garak]

Most of it is. The Dalek itself is just a small squid-thing.

I consider Cybermen to be robot in almost the same way as the ones from Deep Breath were. One just went from human to robot and the other the opposite way.

Oh please, robots can't go human by replacing parts with human flesh. That is nonsense. same for other way around. It's not the body it's the brain that makes you. Either it's biological or synthetic - is the key denominator. Robots in Deep Breath had mechanical brains. Clockwork even. Cybermen have human brains. They are cyborgs.

[Arrowstormen]

Oh please, robots can't go human by replacing parts with human flesh. That is nonsense. same for other way around. It's not the body it's the brain that makes you. Either it's biological or synthetic - is the key denominator. Robots in Deep Breath had mechanical brains. Clockwork even. Cybermen have human brains. They are cyborgs.

It's sci-fi, there are no such laws. The Doctor even put it into question if Half-Face was still robot.

[Elim Garak]

It's sci-fi, there are no such laws. The Doctor even put it into question if Half-Face was still robot.

Sci - stands for science. If it's not the case in Doctor Who then Doctor Who is not Sci-fi - but a fantasy.

[Arrowstormen]

Sci - stands for science. If it's not the case in Doctor Who then Doctor Who is not Sci-fi - but a fantasy.

How do you know robots can't go sentient?

[Kelimbror]

How do you know robots can't go sentient?

There actually was an article recently, it would take me a while to find, which piggybacked off of recent statements by Hawking and some other scientists that we really should be concerned with the field of AI and robotics. While it wasn't crazy movie scenarios, they say that the probability or risk of these things happening compared to the time we have to research it is alarming. Essentially our technology is outpacing our methods and there's a great chance that something horrendous and unexpected will happen that we are not prepared for. It was a great read, because it's not simply conjecture that SkyNet will wake up and kill us all but uses very practical approaches and logical inference as to why this field is a looming threat that we need to prepare for.

[Elim Garak]

How do you know robots can't go sentient?

We are not talking about sentience, we are talking about the nature of origin.

[Deleted]

How do you know robots can't go sentient?

Whooa, sentient and human are 2 different things. A robot can go sentient in a sci-fi universe, but they can't become human.

[Arrowstormen]

We are not talking about sentience, we are talking about the nature of origin.

I'm not, I'm talking about whether or not Cybermen can be considered robots for The Promised Land theory. The fact that both the spaceships looking for the Promised Land were robots pretending to be people in some way, and that Cybermen are the main villain in the episodes about the Promised Land seems to suggest so. Of course, the girl who went to "Heaven" wasn't a robot, but for now I'll contribute that to the fact that there are several moving parts in the plot.

- - - Updated - - -

Whooa, sentient and human are 2 different things. A robot can go sentient in a sci-fi universe, but they can't become human.

That depends on what is required to be a human.

[Elim Garak]

I'm not, I'm talking about whether or not Cybermen can be considered robots for The Promised Land theory

No they are not considered robots. That doesn't mean they cannot go to promised land, but that in turn doesn't mean they are going there, they are villains after all.

That depends on what is required to be a human.

To be of the species homo-sapiens-sapiens

[Arrowstormen]

No they are not considered robots. That doesn't mean they cannot go to promised land, but that in turn doesn't mean they are going there, they are villains after all.


To be of the species homo-sapiens-sapiens

1) Robot enough. And it seems to me like everyone going there has been the villains. And has been robotic thingies with a fetish for organic parts.

2) Fine. I went back and the word the Doctor used was humanity.

[Deleted]

2) Fine. I went back and the word the Doctor used was humanity.

Well, he shouldn't have used it. Poor writing, or idiot Doctor. You cannot expect (yet it's such a regular mistake) anything not human to have the same values as us. Hell, it's hard to find 2 humans with the same values! So much of Sci-Fi (the good stuff) is a platform to explore the human condition. "What would humans do if ....?". This is the basis of every zombie movie, every alien invasion movie, every 'discovered new tech' book.

The Doctor is not Human, and thus does not have a 'humanity' and this is the crux of the show. Tennant's Doctor knew he wasn't human, and admired humanity despite all its faults and there are plenty of examples where he defends Humanity because of their amazing potential for good.

The current Doctor worries whether his Time Lord nature somehow prevents him from being "A Good Man". He worries that he doesn't measure up to the humans he so admires, and perhaps never will. Which is why he makes the comment to half-face, "You can keep adding pieces of them to yourself, but you'll never be human" which is sadly also directed at himself, he an spend 1,000's of years with them, but he'll never be one of them.

The Cybermen, on the other hand, lost their humanity when they upgraded. This was shown in great clarity in the 'other universe' episode(s) where Rose's family were wealthy. The upgrade process stripped away their ability to feel, anything, so they wouldn't feel the constant pain of having the metal grafted on. This ability to feel is deemed a key component to humanity.

Half-face lacked this empathy, and likely never would, and this is why the Doctor told him to kill himself now, as he'd never succeed in it's plans.

[Arrowstormen]

Well, he shouldn't have used it. Poor writing, or idiot Doctor. You cannot expect (yet it's such a regular mistake) anything not human to have the same values as us. Hell, it's hard to find 2 humans with the same values! So much of Sci-Fi (the good stuff) is a platform to explore the human condition. "What would humans do if ....?". This is the basis of every zombie movie, every alien invasion movie, every 'discovered new tech' book.

The Doctor is not Human, and thus does not have a 'humanity' and this is the crux of the show. Tennant's Doctor knew he wasn't human, and admired humanity despite all its faults and there are plenty of examples where he defends Humanity because of their amazing potential for good.

The current Doctor worries whether his Time Lord nature somehow prevents him from being "A Good Man". He worries that he doesn't measure up to the humans he so admires, and perhaps never will. Which is why he makes the comment to half-face, "You can keep adding pieces of them to yourself, but you'll never be human" which is sadly also directed at himself, he an spend 1,000's of years with them, but he'll never be one of them.

The Cybermen, on the other hand, lost their humanity when they upgraded. This was shown in great clarity in the 'other universe' episode(s) where Rose's family were wealthy. The upgrade process stripped away their ability to feel, anything, so they wouldn't feel the constant pain of having the metal grafted on. This ability to feel is deemed a key component to humanity.

Half-face lacked this empathy, and likely never would, and this is why the Doctor told him to kill himself now, as he'd never succeed in it's plans.

I don't think humanity was used the way you're using it right now in that scene. Humanity is a word that can mean a few different things.

hu·man·i·ty (hy-mn-t)
n. pl. hu·man·i·ties
1. Humans considered as a group; the human race.
2. The condition or quality of being human.
3. The quality of being humane; benevolence.
4. A humane characteristic, attribute, or act.
5. humanities
a. The languages and literatures of ancient Greece and Rome; the classics.
b. Those branches of knowledge, such as philosophy, literature, and art, that are concerned with human thought and culture; the liberal arts.
[Middle English humanite, from Old French, from Latin hmnits, from hmnus, human; see human.]

Number 4 seems to be the one the Doctor referred to.

[ringpriest]

The term 'robot' originated in the play, Rossum's Universal Robots, where they were manufactured biological creations. That's not how the word is normally used in English today, but perhaps The Doctor's a little out of date?

[Arrowstormen]

The term 'robot' originated in the play, Rossum's Universal Robots, where they were manufactured biological creations. That's not how the word is normally used in English today, but perhaps The Doctor's a little out of date?

Or maybe biological robot thingies are more common in the universe than robotic robots?

[Deleted]

I don't think humanity was used the way you're using it right now in that scene. Humanity is a word that can mean a few different things.

4. A humane characteristic, attribute, or act.

Number 4 seems to be the one the Doctor referred to.

The problem with quoting a dictionary definition is that dictionaries are rarely written with extra-terrestrial or artificial life-forms in mind.

A dog can rescue someone from a burning building, it does not have humanity. It has a characteristic that can be shared with humans, but it does not have humanity. It never can. You might say that you know some dogs with more humanity than some people, but all you are talking about is a dog that has nicer qualities than some humans. Humanity is the combination of both positive and negative qualities that make us human, even the bad bits.

This is an issue I take up with people who misuse the word humanity.

I have seen a child who was completely full, stuff a chocolate bar in their mouth when somebody suggested he give it to someone else, much like how a dog will force feed itself if it thinks you are about to take their food bowl away. Is the dog showing a human trait, or is the child "being like an animal". We like to think Humanity is all the good things, and Animalism is all the bad things.

Animalism is the list of characteristics, attributes and acts that define animals as what they are. Humanity is the same, but for members of our genus. It is uniquely human, by it's very definition, and a robot cannot attain humanity, because it could not become fully human, as once it does it is no longer robot.

The question is, can it devise a system of morals that would be equivalent to a "Good Human". Can the Doctor be "A Good Man"?

EDIT: You know it's a Monday when you put more thought into a forum post than you did in everything you did at work that day

[Kelimbror]

I have seen a child who was completely full, stuff a chocolate bar in their mouth when somebody suggested he give it to someone else, much like how a dog will force feed itself if it thinks you are about to take their food bowl away. Is the dog showing a human trait, or is the child "being like an animal". We like to think Humanity is all the good things, and Animalism is all the bad things.

I don't know of anyone who thinks like this. Most people would correctly feel that the child is selfish and that the animal is protective and attribute those qualities to the beings that they are.

[Arrowstormen]

The problem with quoting a dictionary definition is that dictionaries are rarely written with extra-terrestrial or artificial life-forms in mind.

A dog can rescue someone from a burning building, it does not have humanity. It has a characteristic that can be shared with humans, but it does not have humanity. It never can. You might say that you know some dogs with more humanity than some people, but all you are talking about is a dog that has nicer qualities than some humans. Humanity is the combination of both positive and negative qualities that make us human, even the bad bits.

This is an issue I take up with people who misuse the word humanity.

I have seen a child who was completely full, stuff a chocolate bar in their mouth when somebody suggested he give it to someone else, much like how a dog will force feed itself if it thinks you are about to take their food bowl away. Is the dog showing a human trait, or is the child "being like an animal". We like to think Humanity is all the good things, and Animalism is all the bad things.

Animalism is the list of characteristics, attributes and acts that define animals as what they are. Humanity is the same, but for members of our genus. It is uniquely human, by it's very definition, and a robot cannot attain humanity, because it could not become fully human, as once it does it is no longer robot.

The question is, can it devise a system of morals that would be equivalent to a "Good Human". Can the Doctor be "A Good Man"?

EDIT: You know it's a Monday when you put more thought into a forum post than you did in everything you did at work that day

I don't agree with the fact that you can say "this is what humanity is, and that's it". It's a philosophical question. There is no definitive right answer.