[TV] Doctor Who

[apepi]

The point is; facets of a character don't truly "matter" unless they somehow affect the story itself. Unless something about Clara's family informs the story being told in a given episode, it's superfluous and should not be included.

Pretty much, But Donna's job did influence the story, right or left?

[Shockeye]

My husband made a comment last night as we watched the most recent episode, and I think it really summed up the problem with Clara right now. We don't know who she is, as a person. With the other companions they always had a big sense of self and who they were even when traveling with the Doctor. I have no real sense of Clara, and she's been written really inconsistently. It feels very like she travels with him and does things because she always has :/

She's a cipher, a hollow vessel, like Bella in Twilight - a channel through which audience may inject themselves and vicariously experience the events happening in the story.
That she has no character is the result of terrible planning - she was concocted to be specially tied to the 11th Doctor, and without him she's pointless, hanging on because of my previous point, it's good for ratings during the transition to a new, different, Doctor.

Hopefully by the end of this season, she will be gone, replaced with a companion more suited to the 12th's personality, and we can finally have a stronger Doctor Who.

[Arlee]

I actually like Rose's mum, and are you telling me Dona's Grandfather was not great?

Agreed. Heck I even liked Donna's mom even though she was annoying. She was also hilarious.

That said, I REALLY like Danny. I'd absolutely love a 4-5 episode arc where he and the Doctor get stuck with each other, without Clara anywhere in sight. Pull out Capaldi's "I hate soldiers" thing, have Danny get over his shit, have them fight like blazes before saving the world.

I do really like Danny. He seems like a real and complex character. The whole thing between him and The Doctor about if he was a PE teacher or a Maths teacher was great. Even more great was the thing about the Doctor being a Lord and sending people to their deaths... because he was right and that's something Doctor has struggled with for ages.

I do want to say I do really like Courtney. She seems very likeable and actually has character.

Yea, she was funny Also her parents were hysterical

[Shockeye]

The problem is that she's the Maguffin of last season, the Impossible Girl that was needed to "fix" everything in the final hour. Her personality was irrelevant, and, indeed, they treated it that way; she was three different people. While still being herself. Oswin, on the Dalek prison ship, that Rennaissance bar wench, and Clara. All the same "person", and beyond "perky and somewhat clever", not really any constant threads.

She's superfluous, and should have been written out sooner than they are, IMO.

Yes, absolutely agreed. I suspect when she does leave they'll force some final "integral" moment wherein Clara is super important, like she's the Doctor's mother or something horrible.

That said, I REALLY like Danny. I'd absolutely love a 4-5 episode arc where he and the Doctor get stuck with each other, without Clara anywhere in sight. Pull out Capaldi's "I hate soldiers" thing, have Danny get over his shit, have them fight like blazes before saving the world.

My jury is still out on Danny. I generally like him, and in the absence of Clara I think his character has a lot to offer. Your scenario sounds very compelling, though perhaps not that many episodes worth, but a two-parter for sure.
Companions who call the Doctor out are often the most rewarding, like Tegan and Donna, or have a story that runs contrary to the Doctor's wishes, like Turlough, things that give the Doctor a personal challenge. Barbara and Ian, or Caroline Shaw, companions that challenged the Doctor's authority and tunnel vision, give lots of great opportunity for strong dialogue and on-screen dynamics.

[Deleted]

Not focusing on something doesn't make it lazy. Some people don't care to invent languages like Tolkien did for their fantasy novels, that doesn't make them lazy, just as Tolkien having no economic system to speak of didn't make him lazy. Clara has her job and boyfriend instead.

There's a big difference between something like an invented language which will rarely if ever need to be used fully in a work of fiction, to something essential to any character like their friends and family. People don't exist in a vacuum, our friends and family are an important part of our lives. At least Moffat made Amy's missing parents plot relevant. With Clara we got no sense in season 7 of say, whether he family is suspicious about her "always being in a rush or a state" as Danny puts it. Season 8 has been a little better in that regard, but as Danny is almost immediately been roped into the fantastic side of things, it doesn't work nearly so well. There's nothing to ground Clara to the real world.

[Arrowstormen]

There's a big difference between something like an invented language which will rarely if ever need to be used fully in a work of fiction, to something essential to any character like their friends and family. People don't exist in a vacuum, our friends and family are an important part of our lives. At least Moffat made Amy's missing parents plot relevant. With Clara we got no sense in season 7 of say, whether he family is suspicious about her "always being in a rush or a state" as Danny puts it. Season 8 has been a little better in that regard, but as Danny is almost immediately been roped into the fantastic side of things, it doesn't work nearly so well. There's nothing to ground Clara to the real world.

Danny is still grounded in the real world, even if he knows about her secret. The fact that companions even keep these things secret I haven't ever understood, the Doctor isn't shy about showing off his TARDIS on any of his other adventures. She also doesn't live with her family, what would they know about anything? Her family and colleagues (that's basically the friends most grown-ups have) are clearly not important for anything. Unlike in RTD's era, we have very few episodes happening in the companion's time and home. Episodes already need to spend their time carefully as is, why waste it on even more of her real life instead of the adventures?

[Deleted]

Danny is still grounded in the real world, even if he knows about her secret. The fact that companions even keep these things secret I haven't ever understood, the Doctor isn't shy about showing off his TARDIS on any of his other adventures. She also doesn't live with her family, what would they know about anything? Her family and colleagues (that's basically the friends most grown-ups have) are clearly not important for anything. Unlike in RTD's era, we have very few episodes happening in the companion's time and home. Episodes already need to spend their time carefully as is, why waste it on even more of her real life instead of the adventures?

Isn't a major theme of this season supposed to be the consequences of living life with the Doctor? The reason that the families have been irrelevant is that Moffat has made them irrelevant. He can't be bothered with those silly little details clearly. It's a personal preference obviously, but in my opinion it does make the companions (including Amy and Rory who I love very much) feel less real.

[Arrowstormen]

Isn't a major theme of this season supposed to be the consequences of living life with the Doctor? The reason that the families have been irrelevant is that Moffat has made them irrelevant. He can't be bothered with those silly little details clearly. It's a personal preference obviously, but in my opinion it does make the companions (including Amy and Rory who I love very much) feel less real.

How much time do you really spend with your family after you've married or after you've moved out and your dad is now with some sort of stepmother, and maybe also a long distance away?

[Deleted]

How much time do you really spend with your family after you've married or after you've moved out and your dad is now with some sort of stepmother, and maybe also a long distance away?

I have no idea. But it doesn't even have to be family, it could be friends. And I will give Moffat some credit for introducing Danny. But even then he is a new relationship almost immediately entangled in the world of the Doctor. Clara has no longstanding relationships or friendships that are explored in any depth whatsoever.

[apepi]

How much time do you really spend with your family after you've married or after you've moved out and your dad is now with some sort of stepmother, and maybe also a long distance away?

Correct me if I am wrong but Martha had family shown in Doctor Who, yet she did not live with them.

[MatadorMedia]

Yes, absolutely agreed. I suspect when she does leave they'll force some final "integral" moment wherein Clara is super important, like she's the Doctor's mother or something horrible.

Haha. God I hope not, but Moffat is Moffat. The Doctor's mother - according to the script - is actually frozen in time on Gallifrey in the middle of the Rassilon / Master fight; she was the woman appearing to Wilfred throughout the Tenth Doctor's last episode. Speaking of, Wilfred Mott is the best pseudo-companion of all time. He was so awesome as a person. And the Doctor suicided just to save him, which alone speaks volumes. Twelve would never die for Clara; she's garbage.

[eschatological]

I think the issue with Clara has been said already: I don't know the "why" about her. When Danny asked her this past episode why she travelled with the Doctor, I was genuinely curious to hear her answer, cause I had no fucking clue. And her answer was disappointing and kind of a sidestep.

Last season, I always got the impression she had a thing for Smith's Doctor. Which puts her in the category of irrelevance for companions, in my book. That was justified in Deep Breath when she was so shocked and put off by the Doctor when he regenerated as an old man, and there had to be this whole story of "the masks we wear." But now she's just devoted to him all over again, but it's clearly not infatuation, as seen by her not falling for the Matt Smith-type colleague, and going in a completely different direction. So what's her motivation for traveling with the Doctor? I have no clue.

Also, I think Capaldi is a brilliant Doctor, I don't see how people dislike him. His morality hasn't been compromised from his Tennant or Smith days at all, he's just more blunt about it. Tennant killed sooooooo many people, he just regretted it. I think this Doctor is past living in regret, or even forgetting, like Matt Smith. He's kind of fatalist, in a way. "This thing is going to happen, so....it happened. Accept and move on."

[apepi]

How is In The Loop? Is it worth the watch?

[Arrowstormen]

I think the issue with Clara has been said already: I don't know the "why" about her. When Danny asked her this past episode why she travelled with the Doctor, I was genuinely curious to hear her answer, cause I had no fucking clue. And her answer was disappointing and kind of a sidestep.

Her answer is the only answer. It's the reason anybody would do it or does it.

[Shockeye]

Her answer is the only answer. It's the reason anybody would do it or does it.

Not at all. People have traveled with the Doctor for all sorts of different reasons. Some voluntarily, some not so, some to run away, some because they had nowhere to go, some because of a nefarious motive. There are, and have been, many reasons why someone travels with the Doctor, and Clara's response is pretty much the non-answer.

Now, she may not have wanted to explain to Danny her history, which would fit with the whole not wanting to tell him anything intent, but given that this Clara isn't actively aware of alternate Claras, there isn't much for her to explain. The best reading of her non-answer would be that she loves the thrill and danger, and that's not something Danny seems to approve of, and given what he's learned and seen she didn't want to upset him.

- - - Updated - - -

Haha. God I hope not, but Moffat is Moffat. The Doctor's mother - according to the script - is actually frozen in time on Gallifrey in the middle of the Rassilon / Master fight; she was the woman appearing to Wilfred throughout the Tenth Doctor's last episode.

In Moffat-logic that doesn't mean the two can't be the same person, and in fact given the absurd story he put together for Clara, it could very well be intentional! The Doctor's mother appearing to Wilf to guide and protect the Doctor > Clara appearing in the Doctor's timeline to guide and protect him. I wouldn't put it past Moffat.
*shudder*

- - - Updated - - -

I think this Doctor is past living in regret, or even forgetting, like Matt Smith. He's kind of fatalist, in a way. "This thing is going to happen, so....it happened. Accept and move on."

Yes. He's almost like "pure Doctor" without the veneer or tact used in previous incarnations to smooth things over or manage expectations, which is a nice return to form. Usually the Doctor doesn't try to soften the blow or the reality of what's happening.

[Arlee]

Correct me if I am wrong but Martha had family shown in Doctor Who, yet she did not live with them.

Yes. Though they ended up being plot relevant. I mean Martha's sister worked for two different "villains". And the Master used her family as a bargaining chip. I think there is another area they appeared but I forgot.

Something else I thought of I wanted to bring up but I got sidetracked with the whole Clara thing, the policeman from the last episode ended up with Missy. That sort of destroys the theory that only people who choose to sacrifice themselves (for the Doctor or otherwise) end up there. I mean he didn't even realize he was in danger so he couldn't really have made the choice to sacrifice himself.

- - - Updated - - -

Correct me if I am wrong but Martha had family shown in Doctor Who, yet she did not live with them.

Yes. Though they ended up being plot relevant. I mean Martha's sister worked for two different "villains". And the Master used her family as a bargaining chip. I think there is another area they appeared but I forgot.

Something else I thought of I wanted to bring up but I got sidetracked with the whole Clara thing, the policeman from the last episode ended up with Missy. That sort of destroys the theory that only people who choose to sacrifice themselves (for the Doctor or otherwise) end up there. I mean he didn't even realize he was in danger so he couldn't really have made the choice to sacrifice himself.

[Shockeye]

Something else I thought of I wanted to bring up but I got sidetracked with the whole Clara thing, the policeman from the last episode ended up with Missy. That sort of destroys the theory that only people who choose to sacrifice themselves (for the Doctor or otherwise) end up there. I mean he didn't even realize he was in danger so he couldn't really have made the choice to sacrifice himself.

I believe the implication is that Missy is able to intervene or co-opt whatever the "normal" post-death event is for a being. This probably ties to those early images of Cybermen in a graveyard, there's something about interfering in the death process.

[apepi]

Yes. Though they ended up being plot relevant. I mean Martha's sister worked for two different "villains". And the Master used her family as a bargaining chip. I think there is another area they appeared but I forgot.

Something else I thought of I wanted to bring up but I got sidetracked with the whole Clara thing, the policeman from the last episode ended up with Missy. That sort of destroys the theory that only people who choose to sacrifice themselves (for the Doctor or otherwise) end up there. I mean he didn't even realize he was in danger so he couldn't really have made the choice to sacrifice himself.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes. Though they ended up being plot relevant. I mean Martha's sister worked for two different "villains". And the Master used her family as a bargaining chip. I think there is another area they appeared but I forgot.

Something else I thought of I wanted to bring up but I got sidetracked with the whole Clara thing, the policeman from the last episode ended up with Missy. That sort of destroys the theory that only people who choose to sacrifice themselves (for the Doctor or otherwise) end up there. I mean he didn't even realize he was in danger so he couldn't really have made the choice to sacrifice himself.

Well you could say that policemen choose to sacrifice themselves everyday.

[MatadorMedia]

Well you could say that policemen choose to sacrifice themselves everyday.

I'm not so sure the policeman was in heaven. He may have been checking into the nethersphere, but maybe that includes a version of hell as well? He was kind of a douche to those children, after all. The Missy character is just so confusing though it's hard to tell what's really going on. I'd pay money to have the main characters keep some degree of consistency between episodes, though. Watching Capaldi's performance feels like he's playing a different character every episode.

If you guys aren't watching the YouTube channel Emergency Awesome, I definitely recommend it. This super nerdy - but semi cool - guy does reviews and answers questions about Doctor Who each week. He's got some good theories.

[worprz]

I finally finished all the episodes out now, I do like Capaldi more in the later episodes. I think my favorite episodes were Time Heist and Listen.

I was hoping there was an actual creature in Listen though

I do agree with you though Deuse, I think the writers need to decide where they are going with the Doctor.

I don't really like Danny though, he reminds me of Mickey.