Is it just me or is frost better than fire for right now

[Vlaria]

point.... is....mooot.

the question was if frost is better than fire. answer Fire is better than frost. period.
Gear is really not that big of an issue right now as to change the tides to that degree. Fire IS superior. Frost however gives more utility through better kiting ability/survivability/replenishment.
On top of that frost is way to dependent on FoF to deal damage. It's far to easy to blow your damage into the ground by simply having bad luck with that 20% proc rate. One run you're doing 15k dps and the next one you have bad FoF proc rate and you're down to 12k at least. When raiding you're looking for as much stability as possible. Fire offers somewhat more stability.

You're saying that frost is not as good because it depends on rng fof procs ~20%. Then you say fire is more sustained but it also depends on rng crit, which DOES scale with gear. And dps significantly scales with gear. You can go look at simcrafts ( which I'm not fond of ) but. If in heroic gear you are doing 12-15k~ dps. And in full raid epics you should be around 20-23k, then there is calling. And gear does change things significantly.

This thread is getting silly. It comes down to RNG in all honesty. And while spec a may bemore or less rng than spec b. they are both still rng dependent on a fight to fight basis. As you mentioned, one run x dps, the next y dps. This holds true for fire as well, as getting no crits will yield bad dps.

[daydayhyphy]

are you one of those guys that follow the epeen chart?

[Xs]

One run you're doing 15k dps and the next one you have bad FoF proc rate and you're down to 12k at least. When raiding you're looking for as much stability as possible. Fire offers somewhat more stability.

A 3k difference with frost? I'd much rather take that than a 50% difference with fire ty

Profer Fire in heroics for its lol everything is on fire, but Frost is far superior on boss fights and allows you to save so much healer mana with slows/stuns/snares + replenishment, you'd just be stupid not to be Frost

[Drakonan]

Overall 359 Spec DPS Comparison:



Overall 372 Spec DPS Comparison:

this made you look even more stupid.

[Yorito]

idk i love fire spec but
im running frost right now cuz i need some armor
warriors rape me

[Swizzle]

A 3k difference with frost? I'd much rather take that than a 50% difference with fire ty

Profer Fire in heroics for its lol everything is on fire, but Frost is far superior on boss fights and allows you to save so much healer mana with slows/stuns/snares + replenishment, you'd just be stupid not to be Frost

Talking about raids here.

Also, I do like how the people defending Frost being better claim to follow the Mages of Ensidia and Paragon as their shining beacons. Can't use your own experiences to support something? Just looking at Paragon's Mages, they all have a raiding Fire spec (all three of them do), but only one of them actually has a raiding Frost spec. Hmmm. I also took a look at Ensidia's Mages, since you know, they're better than me *blush*. Whadaya know, they're all Fire also.

Your arguments are comparable to saying a Pinto is a better car than a Maserati because you live in a place with a bunch of stop lights. Fire has stronger AoE, better target switching, better movement, and has a stronger single target potential than Frost. Basically, it's a better spec.

Though, you can continue to make fun of me or insult me in hopes of it somehow making your points more valid and mine less so. At the end of the day, all you're doing is plugging your ears with your fingers and going, WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA, while I tell you what is actually going on.

[Exera]

If you go into any Cata raid as frost thinking you're going to blow up the charts and be pulling the most insane mage DPS since arcane was king in wotlk you're in for a massive surprise. Frost is dead right horrible for movement fights, and guess what you do a hell of a lot of in Cata raids?

Hell even in standstill no movement fights fire wins hands down.

[Deleted]

OP was talking about dungeons at start, not raids. At the end he said about BH - beating ARCANE mage (no wonders). Just sayin' - even pre 4.0.1 lot of mages were running dungeons in raid-inferior frost, hell - even if frost were worst in dungeons atm, you might want to help you healer with replenishment with overall better result than pure dps increase. Haven't tried but doubt you can use fire in dungeons to it's full potential when we still have to use cc (perhaps if you have inba group which is great with positioning and cc).

But yes - once you start serious raiding - you will go fire seeing how fire mages beat you.

On a side note - This makes me o_O

I keep three stacks of FFB up, I have it Glyphed, I use Ice Lance when Icy or Time Warp isn't up on FOF procs.

[MarioInfinity]

My mage has only been 85 for about a week; and im almost full heroic geared; and my fire dps sucked at first. I couldn't fuckin figure out why. The biggest thing is remembering we have mastery now; and that we have glyphs and spells and rotations that help our dps. I changed out my rotations and am always top in dps meters in heroics again. The other thing was Hit; I /facepalmed and never reforged to cap hit for mobs.

So to the OP those could be a few things to consider. Rotations/Hit etc. Also while frost is nice, the procs and the 30s cd and ice lances on GCD, just becomes a pain to manage. Fire yea you have procs but they dont really have gcd/cd issues. And if you have a rotation down, weaving scorch, etc the "mana" issue really isnt bad. Mana Gem + Evocate, and I dont even use those on most fights anymore as fire (except like time warp fuck it spam this spell).

Oh, and Frost in DM or SFK .. THAT DAMN ELEMENTAL IS BLOODY ANNOYING. - sorry had to vent my frustration with that friggen thing and the tight spaces and seeing shit.. sigh lol

[Frozenshiva]

A 3k difference with frost? I'd much rather take that than a 50% difference with fire ty

Profer Fire in heroics for its lol everything is on fire, but Frost is far superior on boss fights and allows you to save so much healer mana with slows/stuns/snares + replenishment, you'd just be stupid not to be Frost

if you have a 50% damage difference you're doing it WRONG!

[Otaka]

fire also has better movement (scorch while moving while costing no mana), better survivability too (cauterize)

arcane is by far the easiest spec, though

burn, then conserve, easy.

cauterize isnt survivability really, it gives you like 3 seconds lifetime then it kills you if something else doesnt kill you during that 3 sec.

[Grondath]

Hmmm. I also took a look at Ensidia's Mages, since you know, they're better than me *blush*. Whadaya know, they're all Fire also.

Sure.....look again! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IisqL0B5NLs

I do much prefer fire to frost though and am getting better results in it. I have both specs though, finding frost useful for some fights (either providing replenishment in 10 mans or providing add control).

[Swizzle]

Sure.....look again! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IisqL0B5NLs

I do much prefer fire to frost though and am getting better results in it. I have both specs though, finding frost useful for some fights (either providing replenishment in 10 mans or providing add control).

First kills will be Frost for progression guilds, sure, since it's easier to learn as Frost. That doesn't mean Frost is better than Fire, especially when every top Mage parse is Fire. I'm not saying Frost is bad, far from it, but the top Mages in the guilds noted in this thread all have primary Fire raiding specs, with either a Frost PvP off-spec or Frost PvE off-spec for progression. Though, once they're all geared enough, they may just stick with Fire for learning also.

[rathofvol]

Kind of funny to read the Swizzle flaming when he's 100% correct. Guess a new expansion brings the bads out of the woods

[flinchy]

cauterize isnt survivability really, it gives you like 3 seconds lifetime then it kills you if something else doesnt kill you during that 3 sec.

better than infinite seconds of dead.. all the healer has to do it, wait, heal you? fair enough!

just sayin'

[Bombkirby]

I started thinking that after testing it (Frost was higher for my mage) and after seeing that the World First kill for Nefarion had a Frost Mage in the raid. (Maybe for the kiting, but still....its a sign.)

---------- Post added 2010-12-26 at 07:55 PM ----------

better than infinite seconds of dead.. all the healer has to do it, wait, heal you? fair enough!

just sayin'

Some times they only have the mana to look out for the tank.

[Swizzle]

I started thinking that after testing it (Frost was higher for my mage) and after seeing that the World First kill for Nefarion had a Frost Mage in the raid. (Maybe for the kiting, but still....its a sign.)

---------- Post added 2010-12-26 at 07:55 PM ----------



Some times they only have the mana to look out for the tank.

First kills in the first tier always include the spec that is most group friendly. After that, you move into the "top parse" specs once a fight has been learned. Hell, you HAD to be Frost when you were learning Freya hard mode, but that doesn't mean Frost is the BETTER spec, just less stress worthy.

---------- Post added 2010-12-26 at 08:03 PM ----------

this made you look even more stupid.

You should tell that to Nemex, a moderator on the Mage forums, since it was taken DIRECTLY from his sticky at the top of the page.

[Matteh]

One run you're doing 15k dps and the next one you have bad FoF proc rate and you're down to 12k at least. When raiding you're looking for as much stability as possible. Fire offers somewhat more stability.

Gotta love this statement.. what do you think happens when u have to low crit as fire and doesnt get a HS for like 5-10 fireballs.. yes it does happen.. u easy cut you dps in half..
YES your dps as fire is HIGHLY dependent on Pyro, Ignite Proccs.. ATM with only HC gear and some REP epics. you Cannot get to the
~33%ish crit Unbuffed needed for fire to be superior... while farming for gear and starting raids Frost is alot more stable. and FoF not procc? ever heard of using freeze? 2 FoF every what? 30 sec? but yea.. Ofc fire WILL be superior when you have the correct stats. otherwhise its only a nice AoE specc not suited for long bossfights..

[Swizzle]

Gotta love this statement.. what do you think happens when u have to low crit as fire and doesnt get a HS for like 5-10 fireballs.. yes it does happen.. u easy cut you dps in half..
YES your dps as fire is HIGHLY dependent on Pyro, Ignite Proccs.. ATM with only HC gear and some REP epics. you Cannot get to the
~33%ish crit Unbuffed needed for fire to be superior... while farming for gear and starting raids Frost is alot more stable. and FoF not procc? ever heard of using freeze? 2 FoF every what? 30 sec? but yea.. Ofc fire WILL be superior when you have the correct stats. otherwhise its only a nice AoE specc not suited for long bossfights..

That doesn't make Frost a better spec, just one that is easier to gear for early on. The reality is that Fire has the highest DPS cap of the Mage specs, saying otherwise is just blatant ignorance.

[pallyballz]

I wouldn't even try anymore Swizzle. Idiot's are idiot's and will never change. Even though the fact's are looking them straight in the face they refuse to admit that Frost is what Frost as always been...a backup spec. They try to say that "top Mages" are raiding (not dungeons) as Frost even though their WOL's prove that they aren't and are raiding as Fireball. Let them play Frost and live in their own little world where they think it's superior to Fireball.