[Priest] PvE Shadow Guide (by Newnoise)

[Kelesti]

Also when mind spike is used on a target that currently has dots applied to them does that count as dispelling the dot or is it some other mechanic?

Mind Spike will not trigger Pain and Suffering, if that's where you're going with that.

[niyangi]

Hello, first of all i would like to thank for this awesome guide.I would like to know your oppinions about my gear i stacked haste on all of my gear but i fell like im doing it wrong should i start to chose crit items or reforge haste to crit here is my armory link i have 2748haste 665 crit rating.eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/niyangi/simple[/url]

[Vzelik]

I sort of like the fact that coming to the priest forums here on MMO is giving me better information than what is on EJ. Props to the OP for an extremely informative post as well as everyone who has contributed to this post.

Anyways, I was just wondering if I could get any comments on my build. According to the haste tables, I'm very close to having a second additional extra tick on Vamp Touch. (2509 haste).

I've read on Shadowpriest.com that they were saying that the value of haste diminishes after 1250ish haste.

It seems to me stacking haste as our main secondary stat is still the best way for increasing our dps.


Here is a link to my armory profile
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ewatson/simple

Thanks!

[New]

Hello, first of all i would like to thank for this awesome guide.I would like to know your oppinions about my gear i stacked haste on all of my gear but i fell like im doing it wrong should i start to chose crit items or reforge haste to crit here is my armory link i have 2748haste 665 crit rating.eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/niyangi/simple[/url]

Generally, stacking Haste is going to give you the best result when comparing other secondary stats. Over most gear profiles the importance of Haste > Crit > Mastery holds true, but, further down I'll show you this isn't always the case.

I can make a couple of suggestions to your gear as far as enchants and gems go. You're going to want to stop using 40 Spirit gems in your gear, even for the socket bonuses. When you gem 40 Spirit in your blue slots, you are losing 30 potential Intellect in each socket by not choosing a 40 Intellect gem. Keep the 20 Int/20 Spirit gem in your chest, the potential for loss here is very minimal and will probably be the best choice in trying to keep the hit cap.

Its pretty nice how you have actually gotten near all Haste/Crit/Spirit gear. This leaves you with little potential to reforge the 80 Spirit you're going to lose if you switch to 40 Intellect gems. Reforging the Mastery on your weapon to Spirit may be one way to help make up this gap, but won't completely make up the difference. Unless you cannot make up the other Spirit/Hit another way, you may need to change your 40 Spirit gems to 20 Intellect/20 Spirit gems instead of the previously mentioned 40 Intellect gems.

Now That I am at home I can run a simulation craft profile for you and the results looks pretty interesting.

Using your profile as of 3 PM Eastern Standard Time:

		Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
Scale Factors	2.9642	0.9636	2.2064	0.9584	1.1526	1.0947	1.0130
Normalized	1.0000	0.3251	0.7443	0.3233	0.3888	0.3693	0.3418

Due to the very large amount of Haste you have relative your other secondary stats, you've actually started to devalue its usefulness as a stat compared to Crit and Mastery. You may stand to benefit losing a bit of Haste for Crit (Blasphemy I know).

Also keep in mind, this is only applicable for live. I haven't updated for 4.0.6 until the patch is finalized so things may change a bit.

---------- Post added 2011-01-19 at 07:07 PM ----------

I sort of like the fact that coming to the priest forums here on MMO is giving me better information than what is on EJ. Props to the OP for an extremely informative post as well as everyone who has contributed to this post.

Anyways, I was just wondering if I could get any comments on my build. According to the haste tables, I'm very close to having a second additional extra tick on Vamp Touch. (2509 haste).

I've read on Shadowpriest.com that they were saying that the value of haste diminishes after 1250ish haste.

It seems to me stacking haste as our main secondary stat is still the best way for increasing our dps.


Here is a link to my armory profile
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ewatson/simple

Thanks!

Yeah, the idea behind this is because of the haste plateau around 1256 haste. Obviously there are varied opinions about the issue, but Haste is still your best secondary stat between these plateaus. The idea behind the plateaus gets more attention than it deserves, I mostly put it there as a reference for people who are curious about when they get additional ticks. My advice is continue to go with Haste, but I can help confirm this idea by running a quick simulation craft run for you. Haste should continue to be better than Crit/Mastery except for maybe some extreme cases like the one above.

Using your current profile as of 2:56 Eastern Standard Time:

		Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
Scale Factors	2.7680	0.9816	2.1362	0.9915	1.1142	1.5751	0.9839
Normalized	1.0000	0.3546	0.7718	0.3582	0.4025	0.5690	0.3555

Again, this is referencing live and not the PTR. Ill have more information regarding the PTR when it becomes closer to being complete and implemented.

[gherkin]

Mind Sear damage has been reduced by 30%. Is there a massive coefficient increase to go along with this? This is confusing to me.

Also, all spells calculate damage upon mana consumption, which is at the end of all casts except channels. The only way the damage of your spell will change is if the target gains a buff/debuff. Self buffs will not change the damage being caused. Additionally, if you have a travel time spell, damage is calculated when mana is consumed and not when the target is struck by the spell.

[zenkai]

Mind Sear damage has been reduced by 30%. Is there a massive coefficient increase to go along with this? This is confusing to me.

The base dmg got buffed by 60% now it got nerfed by 30% so therefore it's now only a 30% buff compared to live, at least that's how I understand it.

[Abandon]

It depends if the current reduction is a reduction of 30% to the total spell damage, or to the base spell damage.

[Odvala]

Hey New, about your calculation towards Niyangi haste scale rating value i have a few questions. He is sitting on 2763 rating/ 21.58% haste. You founded that haste value started to drop compared to critical at which rate/%. Generally my question is at which haste rating/% exactly haste starting to lose hes value compared to critical?

If you find spare time i would appreciate if you could do math for my current profile and share your thoughts on it. At this rate i almost came to the position where i want to reforge haste to hit/spirit because i don't have anymore mastery/critical available for it. I found myself in situation where i may even gonna switch my neck/ring for spirit/critical ones in further heroic versions. Thanks, and i hope i am not bothering you to much.

( character/thunderhorn/odvala/advanced ) Since i am not that much active on mmo i would need to ask for a favor if you could just copy/paste this to EU version of battle net, thanks.

[New]

Hey New, about your calculation towards Niyangi haste scale rating value i have a few questions. He is sitting on 2763 rating/ 21.58% haste. You founded that haste value started to drop compared to critical at which rate/%. Generally my question is at which haste rating/% exactly haste starting to lose hes value compared to critical?

If you find spare time i would appreciate if you could do math for my current profile and share your thoughts on it. At this rate i almost came to the position where i want to reforge haste to hit/spirit because i don't have anymore mastery/critical available for it. I found myself in situation where i may even gonna switch my neck/ring for spirit/critical ones in further heroic versions. Thanks, and i hope i am not bothering you to much.

( character/thunderhorn/odvala/advanced ) Since i am not that much active on mmo i would need to ask for a favor if you could just copy/paste this to EU version of battle net, thanks.

I'll respond to you here, as you haven't really specified where exactly to respond to you on the EU battlenet forums. The reason for the devaluation of Haste is not simply because at a certain %, Haste becomes less valuable. The reason for this is because as you continue to gain Haste, while neglecting other secondary stats, you will start to devalue Haste, and this will start to increase the value of other secondary stats. In the first tier of raiding, in order to get high levels of Haste, while maintaining the hit cap, you will need to neglect a lot Crit and Mastery. Your current stat weights are:

		Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
Scale Factors	2.8532	1.0831	2.1994	1.0862	1.1367	1.2683	0.9973
Normalized	1.0000	0.3796	0.7708	0.3807	0.3984	0.4445	0.3495
Scale Deltas	300	300	300	-300	300	300	300

So you're not at the point where Haste is worse than Crit or Mastery yet. Now, at what point does Haste start to devalue for you? That question is incredibly difficult to answer because we have to look at not only your Haste, but your other secondary stats as well which, may fluctuate a lot as you get that additional Haste. I'm afraid that I don't think I can give you a solid answer to your question. I'll keep thinking about it and get back to you.

[Vzelik]

If you want a rough guide for where haste stops being useful for you, I think it is when you get the second additional tick of Vamp Touch. Right around that mark crit goes past haste.

[zenkai]

As far as the value of haste starts to lose its luster, you can't really go too crazy on haste and avoid all other stats it's just not possible

For example if picked up nothing but haste and spirit gear and didn't reforge any of it you would be WAAAAAY over hit capped so therefore you would be reforging into crit. Just like if you have nothing but crit/haste gear you would be reforging out of crit into spirit for hit. I am at 20.87% haste and I still have 11.55% crit. And once I get some better gear with more hit on it ill be able to reforge back into crit to bring my haste/crit ratio even higher. (not worried about mastery atm until 4.06 comes out and I have the final numbers to Theorycraft)

[Vzelik]

A question for New regarding my setup he gave me...

So I'm wondering now, in a raid setup where I always have Dark Intent, if I actually should be reforging some of my haste rating into crit. (2100ish was the bracket for the second extra tick on vamp touch); or if I should just continue pushing my haste a little bit further (I can't really, other than getting haste bracers)

[zenkai]

Unless you're multi dotting or you suck at refreshing dots, there's not really a *soft cap* on haste in a raid environment, haste will always help you lower the time duration between ticks and lower your cast/GCD time.

[New]

A question for New regarding my setup he gave me...

So I'm wondering now, in a raid setup where I always have Dark Intent, if I actually should be reforging some of my haste rating into crit. (2100ish was the bracket for the second extra tick on vamp touch); or if I should just continue pushing my haste a little bit further (I can't really, other than getting haste bracers)

I'll try my best to help you out but I'm not sure if I can give you a perfect answer. I can model for the scale factor changes you will get as a result of the Haste portion of Dark Intent. However, this is where the analysis hits a bit of a roadblock. Simulation craft does not model specifically for Dark Intent (there are many reasons for this), so while I can factor in the Haste, I don't have the capabilities to change the added damage to our DOTs when the simulation is run. I feel that the change in DOT damage should produce different results than what is below, but this is the best I can provide for you right now.

Character sheet Haste: 19.59% or 2509 effective haste
With Mind Quickening + Darkness: 25.35% or 3246.245 effective haste
Total Spell Haste with Dark Intent: 33.21% or 4252.773 effective haste

4252.773 - 3246.245 = 1007 extra effective haste with Dark Intent

Adding this amount of Haste to your simulation craft profile:

		Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
Scale Factors	2.9277	0.9868	2.2312	0.9784	1.2559	1.1287	1.0754
Normalized	1.0000	0.3371	0.7621	0.3342	0.4290	0.3855	0.3673

Now at first glace we see that, yeah, losing some Haste in favor of Crit appears favorable. However, I cannot say for certain that these will hold true through the additional 9% DOT damage increase associated with Dark Intent.

[Odvala]

Thanks for quick answer New. The better gear we have the less value on haste is and i know that. Comparing BiS items list with what actually will be BiS once we all have more then let's say 5-7 372 items with haste/crit or haste/spirit as BiS solution i came to the conclusion that choosing spirit/crit neck and spirit/crit ring (372) will be BiS at that rate. Since Izolight is not leading BiS list in Cataclysm like he did in WotLK there is like 3 different "BiS list" posts without any proper calculation and making the best (372) goal list. A lot of items that are available to be bought from vendors are presented as best in slot while there is no heroic upgrade for those.

Maybe i vent a bit far with this, but my general question is if there is someone willing to do a bit of hard work on it and make a 372 BiS (Hit capped ) model of SP with addition of Simulation craft bellow. That will require a lot of work, not to mention reforging,enchanting etc. but also making a perfect balance between haste/critical/mastery in gear choice as well as being on 17% hit cap all the time. Maybe this kind of (Model) will be a better idea to make once 4.0.6 is out and we are all str8 on what mastery will bring us.

My apologize for bad English and bothering with this subject, it's just i found that majority of "Hard Core" Shadow Priest raider population was following Izolight and Muqq (Ensidia) "BiS Models" back in wotlk which was making a gear choice quite easier for everyone without headache. After all we all know that if you stack BiS gear provided by those lists you will end up with 0% hit rating right?

Side Note: I wish i can post links here from sp,com back in the wotlk days about what exactly i mean with those "BiS Models". Thanks again for patience and understanding. Keep doing good work. Thumbs up!

[Saintpara]

Has anyone tested our 4t11 with the new Mind Blast damage factored in? I know that, currently, we can break 4t11 for off-set pieces and make a tiny DPS increase. However, with Apparitions hitting for so much more, will that still be the case?

[New]

In the guide there is a link to a thread on shadowpriest.com which discusses possible BIS set ups. The current BIS set up that is a part of simulation craft is as follows:

head=crown_of_the_twilight_queen
neck=wyrmbreakers_amulet
shoulders=mercurial_shoulderwraps
chest=mercurial_vestment
waist=xtron_duct_tape
legs=mercurial_leggings
feet=treads_of_liquid_ice
wrists=bracers_of_the_dark_mother
hands=mercurial_gloves
finger1=security_measure_alpha
finger2=signet_of_the_fifth_circle
trinket1=theralions_mirror
trinket2=heart_of_ignacious
back=shroud_of_endless_grief
main_hand=twilights_hammer
off_hand=book_of_binding_will
ranged=finkles_mixer_upper

Gemmed and enchanted this gives you 5102 Intellect, 1616 Spirit, 2207 Spell Power (would be more with the Intellect factored in), 142 Hit rating, 1227 Crit rating, 1696 Haste, and 710 Mastery. This gives you scale factors of:

		Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
Scale Factors	3.4717	1.4945	0.0000	1.4908	1.4279	1.7141	1.5927
Normalized	1.0000	0.4305	0.0000	0.4294	0.4113	0.4937	0.4588

Plugging this into wowhead:

http://www.wowhead.com/items?filter=...45:1.4908;gb=1

This should generate lists with the scale factors above. This is about as far as I want to go with the subject though. I don't want to go and test every gear combination but this should give you a pretty good idea of what you're looking for. I hope this was helpful.

However, I will say the trinket selection in the profile is a bit off. I would put Dark Moon Card: Volcano in instead of Therlion's Mirror.

---------- Post added 2011-01-21 at 04:39 PM ----------

Has anyone tested our 4t11 with the new Mind Blast damage factored in? I know that, currently, we can break 4t11 for off-set pieces and make a tiny DPS increase. However, with Apparitions hitting for so much more, will that still be the case?

Using the current PTR settings as per simulation craft on Patchwerk style fight:

Priest_Shadow_T11_372 4 Piece enabled : 28428dps
Priest_Shadow_T11_372 4 Piece disabled: 28179dps
Net gain = 249 DPS

Using current PTR settings as per simulation craft using Helter Skelter style fight:

Priest_Shadow_T11_372 4 Piece enabled: 24904dps
Priest_Shadow_T11_372 4 Piece disabled: 24546dps
Net gain = 358 DPS

I foresee the 4 piece is still viable to get, even in the next patch.

[Keosen]

Patchwerk style fight:

Priest_Shadow_T11_372 4 Piece enabled : 28428dps

Net gain = 249 DPS

Helter Skelter style fight:

Priest_Shadow_T11_372 4 Piece enabled: 24904dps
Net gain = 358 DPS

The difference between the 2 simulations seems weird considering the fact that SAs must be generated 60% more often than a static fight.

[Abandon]

The difference between the 2 simulations seems weird considering the fact that SAs must be generated 60% more often than a static fight.

Moving doesn't increase the proc chance by 60%, it increases it TO 60%.

[Keosen]

Moving doesn't increase the proc chance by 60%, it increases it TO 60%.

"TO" not "UP TO"
ie:
Stand Still = 4%
Moving = 60%