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  1. #21
    Thank you!!! Much appreciated. Although what's a good rotation right now?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintpara View Post
    I have a question to add on here that might warrants its own section at some point. How do DOT effects update? I remember, previously, you could pop spells such as SW:P or Corruption during a Bloodlust and roll the Haste benefit for the remainder of the encounter. Now, I believe that changed but im not sure. Which effects on you (Or on the boss), if any, cause auto-updating. The information i've found is conflicting.

    At one point, I read that Bliz, allegedly, intended all DOTs to auto-update on a per-tick basis for every stat. Then, I hear its only +damage% modifiers ON the target that cause an update. I then hear that Spellpower updates dynamically but haste/crit do not.

    So, MY testing has shown, as of today, that DP and VT do NOT update as I gain spellpower during a fight. I tested this by stripping down naked and getting a control of 100 ticks of each dot on a target dummy. Next, I popped a Volcanic Potion and cast my dots to see the elevated ticks. THEN, I cast my dots THEN popped a potion and saw them using the unbuffed values. Sure, no problem. Only SW:P updates (and only because you refresh it constantly.)

    The same held true for Haste. I counted ticks over 100 instances naked and buff-less. Then, I counted ticksa during a bloodlust and saw extra ticks occuring. Finally, I would get lusted AFTER applyiing dots and they remained unbuffed. Im going to assume this holds true for Crit but I dont have any trinkets or potions to test with.

    Now, what I CANT test but im continuously told works, is that DOT effects DO update dynamically when debuffs are applied to the target. This would include CoE, Scorch or any of the numerous boss vulnerability mechanics that occur through the game. I've tried to test this, but I was only able to find a Fire Mage volunteer and he couldnt provide the 5% crit buff on demand or keep it up consistently. Apparently it only procs off his own crits and hes lacking in that department right now.
    I seem to recall the same Blizzard post stating that DOTs should update with varying stats, however, I have found that is not the case. Your tests seem to answer part of you own question, and I can add to it slightly by providing the example of when I was testing out Devouring Plague's DPS. I currently have the heroic version of Gale of Shadows equipped. With each tick of Devouring Plague, I gain a stack of 17 spell power. However, I receive the same damage each tick even as my spell power rises.

    Furthermore, from the various things I have read, changes in debuffs/buffs require a reapplication of the spell to take advantage of the benefit. I haven't tested how outside debuffs on the target affect DOT damage if applied when the DOT is already running. I will try to test this later to make a personal decision on the issue and will get back to you.

    ---------- Post added 2010-12-21 at 04:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Monsterdrink View Post
    Thank you!!! Much appreciated. Although what's a good rotation right now?
    As a standard priority: Mind Blast with 1-3 Orbs if Empowered Shadows has fallen off > Vampiric Touch > Devouring Plague > Shadow Word: Pain > Mind Blast 1-3 Orbs > Mind Flay

    The basic idea is that you always want to keep your DOTs rolling in the order provided above, with the possibility of Mind Blast changing should Empowered Shadows falls off. Use Dark Arch Angel when you have some low health adds you need to kill kill quickly (omnitron slimes perhaps?), or when you know you have ~15 seconds before you need to recast Vampiric Touch or Devouring Plague (ideally right after a Vampiric Tocuh application).

  3. #23
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    Excellent post New.

    I'm currently using the folowing opener.

    SW:P -> DP -> VT -> MF -> MF -> MB
    If i have ES up when i'm done i refreshing VT and DP
    SF -> Normal rotation

    Going into normal rotation
    - Keep DOTs up , clip MF to refresh them if needed
    - MB on CD if Orb >= 1
    - Use archangel if it's up and my DOTs refreshed before 1-3 seconds
    - SW: D when moving
    - SF on CD
    - Stick SW: D if i'm running low on mana
    - Use SW: D on CD if HP<25%

    About ES in general i found it almost impossible to fall off during a normal rotation.
    Last edited by Keosen; 2010-12-21 at 07:59 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen View Post
    Excellent post New.

    I'm currently using the folowing opener.

    MB -> DP -> VT -> SW:P -> MF -> MF -> MB
    If ES procc on first MB i spam MF to get DE stacks clip MF when i got x5 and apply DOTs
    If i have ES up when i'm done i refreshing VT and DP
    SF -> Normal rotation

    Going into normal rotation
    - Keep DOTs up , clip MF to refresh them if needed
    - MB on CD if Orb >= 1
    - Use archangel if it's up and my DOTs refreshed before 1-3 seconds
    - SW: D when moving
    - SF on CD
    - Stick SW: D if i'm running low on mana
    - Use SW: D on CD if HP<25%

    About ES in general i found it almost impossible to fall off during a normal rotation.
    Why are you using MB first with no orbs or Archangel up? Seems like a wasted GCD imo, normally what I do for my opener depends on how the fight will start, if we are running into position I'll use SWP and DP first and then VT MF till I get an orb (usually one full channel and 2 tick clip into the 2nd) then pop Archangel then MB and you can fill in the rest.

    Also on the topic of MB, I don't really care about 1-3 orbs tbh, unless I have archangel up I just use MB to keep ES as close to 100% as I can or when its an insta cast as a result of Mind Spiking adds.

    But if we are standing still and the boss is coming to us, I open with a VT and go DP and SWP.

    Also I don't like keeping SF on CD because with such low crit % in raids these days you are getting virtually no time off your CD from Sin and Punishment. Therefore since the damage wouldn't be a bonus at the start of the fight and at the start you are getting an Archangel fairly soon into your rotation, I tend to either pop SF when I REALLY need the mana or right before BL like old times.

    Also on longer fights IE Cho'gall and Twilight Council I was using SWD on CD to keep my mana up and not using SWP for multi dotting, just VT.

    And I seem to be having the complete opposite experience with ES than you, for me its a hassle to hope that you get an orb to proc if not I've spent 3-4 full channels at the start of my rotation before I even get ONE orb, other times I've gotten one on the first tick. And now between keeping Evangelism stacks up, clipping dots, refreshing dots, multi-dotting, and overall fight mechanics, it gets to be really annoying to try and keep as close to 100% uptime on the buff as I can.
    Last edited by YankeePhan1234; 2010-12-21 at 08:08 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen View Post
    Excellent post New.

    About ES in general i found it almost impossible to fall off during a normal rotation.
    I have found this as well

  6. #26
    Me personally, since Shadowpriest has zero use of Blizzards "Power Auras" proc graphics, I wish they would show it there ('left' fills in for 1, then 'up' for two, and 'right' for all 3, 'down' for Empowered Shadows rolling). But since they don't have something like that, is there an addon or something that tracks this easily? Or should I just add Orbs + Empowered Shadows to my tracked buffs on ForteXorcist?

  7. #27
    Nice post, only thing I took issue with was:

    "Glyphs

    The choice of prime glyphs displayed in the link should be fairly obvious as these are the only 3 prime glyphs resulting in a DPS gain. Choices of major and minor slot glyphs are mostly up to personal choice, as there are no DPS increase major or minor glyphs. I have selected the following Prime glyphs as a general framework:

    Prime:

    * Glyph of Mind Flay

    * Glyph of Shadow Word: Death

    * Glyph of Shadow Word: Pain
    "

    I think you have to at least acknowledge that the glyph of dispersion can be replaced with glyph of mind flay. A lot of the top shadow priests in the world use dispersion simply for the survivability and, obviously, the more mana regen the better. Especially in lower tiers of gear.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePhan1234 View Post
    Why are you using MB first with no orbs or Archangel up? Seems like a wasted GCD imo.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePhan1234 View Post
    Also on the topic of MB, I don't really care about 1-3 orbs tbh, unless I have archangel up I just use MB to keep ES as close to 100% as I can or when its an insta cast as a result of Mind Spiking adds.
    That is sort of the intention of what I was saying in my original post. I have a link to some work provided by a poster on shadowpriest.com theorizing that casting Mind Blast with 0 orbs is a DPS loss. That is why in almost every instance in which I talk about the priority casting system, I talk about 1-3 Shadow Orb Mind Blasts. However, you should always "really care" about 1-3 Orbs should Empowered Shadows fall off.

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePhan1234 View Post
    But if we are standing still and the boss is coming to us, I open with a VT and go DP and SWP.
    I would Vampiric Touch > Shadow Word: Pain > Devouring Plague in this situation. This is in the vain attempt that god loves me enough to grant me a Shadow Orb sooner than later.

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePhan1234 View Post
    Also I don't like keeping SF on CD because with such low crit % in raids these days you are getting virtually no time off your CD from Sin and Punishment. Therefore since the damage wouldn't be a bonus at the start of the fight and at the start you are getting an Archangel fairly soon into your rotation, I tend to either pop SF when I REALLY need the mana or right before BL like old times.
    I can't speak for the community as a whole, but I have been having little issue with mana in a 25 man raid setting. I will usually save my Shadow Fiend for ~10 seconds in but if you're having mana issues, then by all means, save it as a mana cool down. Also, as has been always a good idea, if you know heroism/blood lust is coming up shortly, then save your Shadow Fiend for it. I wouldn't wait around for it too long if you're uncertain when it is going to go though.

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePhan1234 View Post
    Also on longer fights IE Cho'gall and Twilight Council I was using SWD on CD to keep my mana up and not using SWP for multi dotting, just VT.
    I'll have to get back to you on this one. I've been in more Christmas party mode than raid mode, so I haven't seen some of the fights first hand yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePhan1234 View Post
    And I seem to be having the complete opposite experience with ES than you, for me its a hassle to hope that you get an orb to proc if not I've spent 3-4 full channels at the start of my rotation before I even get ONE orb, other times I've gotten one on the first tick. And now between keeping Evangelism stacks up, clipping dots, refreshing dots, multi-dotting, and overall fight mechanics, it gets to be really annoying to try and keep as close to 100% uptime on the buff as I can.
    I hardly ever have an issue. I set up a power aura with a counter to show how many Shadow Orbs I have at the time of casting a Mind Blast. Whenever I take a quick peek at it before hitting Mind Blast, I've always seen a 1, 2, or 3. I realize its RNG, and I don't mean to push my good fortune in your face . However, I'll agree keeping Dark Evangelism up on some fights can be a pain. It is just something us really picky Shadow Priests will do our best to keep up, thus showing how awesome we are, right? /nudge

    ---------- Post added 2010-12-21 at 04:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivicen View Post
    Me personally, since Shadowpriest has zero use of Blizzards "Power Auras" proc graphics, I wish they would show it there ('left' fills in for 1, then 'up' for two, and 'right' for all 3, 'down' for Empowered Shadows rolling). But since they don't have something like that, is there an addon or something that tracks this easily? Or should I just add Orbs + Empowered Shadows to my tracked buffs on ForteXorcist?
    If you have Power Auras, you can borrow what I am using to watch for Shadow Orbs:

    Version:3.0.0W; b:0.8902; g:0.098; icon:spell_priest_shadoworbs; buffname:Shadow Orb; r:0.6275; texture:5; alpha:1; symetrie:3; isResting:0; size:0.36; torsion:1.09; y:-80; stacks.enabled:true; stacks.y:-100; stacks.h:1.41; stacks.Texture:Crystal

    You can change the graphic/size/color/whatever you like, but it is already set up to track Shadow Orbs and give you a counter of 1, 2, or 3. If you don't use Power Auras, there are lots of other add-ons you could tweak to help track your orbs.
    Last edited by New; 2010-12-21 at 04:05 PM.

  9. #29
    Nicely done. I always appreciate when all the basic numbers are compiled into one post. A few comments.

    1) Could you add optimal enchants to your guide?

    2) I don't believe that there are hard data to say exactly what the "best" opener really is right now. I am partial to SWP -> Mind Flay to 5 stacks -> MB (assuming I have an orb) -> VT/DP -> Archangel - flay away. It is rare that I don't get an orb with that (but yes, it does happen). Is this better than opening with triple DoTs? I don't think anyone knows. I'm guessing in a typical boss fight, it doesn't really matter in the end.

    3) I would also agree that mana is really not an issue, assuming you are not MSp bursting adds throughout the fight. Even fights like Ascendent Council where I am double dotting for most of the fight, if I use AA and SF right away and whenever they're up, my mana holds well. So I would agree with not waiting on CDs. The only exception is AA + Heroism is a must, so be sure you know when Heroism will be and time AA accordingly.

    4) You glossed over how much hit is undervalued in the current simulation. It is a point of considerable debate. The hitcap is no longer considered mandatory. The primary reason being that DoTs last so much longer than pre-Cata, recast frequency is much less, so missing one has less impact on DPS. The one factor not considered is human reaction time.

    For this reason BiS gear is incredibly difficult to assess. By pure stats, BiS would be to grab all haste/crit or haste/mastery gear but can you really accept a hit rating of zero and avoid all spirit/hit gear?

    My personal preference is to still maintain my hitcap. Once I know all the fights, perhaps it will be less important but while I'm trying to dodge all the mess I'm supposed to, the last thing I want to worry about is missing DoTs.

    Hope you get stickied soon.

  10. #30
    Opener:____________Shadow Word: Pain > Devouring Plague > Vampiric Touch > Mind Blast 1-3 Orbs > Mind Flay until first Orb
    I don't like this. That assumes you cannot get into position, while completely avoiding the max dps opener. While openers do have little affect on the overall dps, why gimp yourself when you can easily do better?

    I'm using: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word Pain, Mind Flay x5 ticks for Dark Evangelism, Mind Blast if an orb has procced, 6th tick of Mind Flay if an orb hasn't procced, Devouring Plague, Recast Vampiric Touch if you cast Mind Blast.

    Firstly, as you say, Vamp Touch is our highest damage per cast time spell, so get it up there ASAP. Followed by Shadow Word Pain as we want as many orb procs as possible. As it is an instant, we can time those 2 spells to go off right as the task pulls. If you really do have to move into position, get your feral to pop stampeding roar to get there faster and do Shadow Word Pain first.
    As Dev Plague has such a long duration (and mana cost to a lesser extent) you want it to have at least one buff when you put it up. You can guarantee to have Dark Evangelism stacks up, so why not get them up as early as you can? Casting 5 Mind Flay ticks stacks this up for 10% extra damage and a lot more chances for a shadow orb to proc to buff it further.
    If an orb has procced after 5 ticks, cancel the last tick of Mind Flay, Mind blast to activate Empowered Shadows buff, apply Dev Plague and then reapply Vampiric Touch. VT will still have 3-5 seconds left depending on your haste, but increasing its damage by around 25% depending on your mastery is worth losing some casting time by reapplying it early (remember it no longer clips).
    If you do not have an orb proc after stacking up Dark Evangelism, carry on with the 6th tick, cast Devouring Plague and spam Mind flay (while refreshing VT as it should be falling off soonish) until you get one (I have had a few extremely unlucky phases. One Valiona fight I didn't have a proc of it until her second blackout (I hate our mastery)). When you finally do cast one, reapply Vampiric Touch and Dev Plague immediately after activating it with Mind Blast, then proceed as normal.

    It sounds complicated, but its making the best use out of the stupidly RNG ramp-up time we have.

    As an edit, I have also noticed another thing wrong with the opener. Why do you want us to cast a Mind Blast before the MF, when there can only have been, at a maximum, 2 SWP ticks? The chances of you having an orb then is very low, I wouldn't count on it. Its much more reliable to stack Dark Evangelism up then, then cast a MB and get all of your DOT buffs rolling at once.
    Last edited by Abb; 2010-12-21 at 05:12 PM.

    Shadow Priest Main
    Originally Posted by Zarhym
    Your post is so drenched in frustration and sarcasm that it's really ruining my salad.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruxxy View Post
    1) Could you add optimal enchants to your guide?
    Yes. I can do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by cruxxy View Post
    2) I don't believe that there are hard data to say exactly what the "best" opener really is right now. I am partial to SWP -> Mind Flay to 5 stacks -> MB (assuming I have an orb) -> VT/DP -> Archangel - flay away. It is rare that I don't get an orb with that (but yes, it does happen). Is this better than opening with triple DoTs? I don't think anyone knows. I'm guessing in a typical boss fight, it doesn't really matter in the end.
    It could probably be done, but by greater minds than I. I just try to look at it logically and that is what I came up with. It has been updated slightly since I originally posted it so I'm always open to discussion. It would be nice to get a definitive answer though.

    Quote Originally Posted by cruxxy View Post
    3) I would also agree that mana is really not an issue, assuming you are not MSp bursting adds throughout the fight. Even fights like Ascendent Council where I am double dotting for most of the fight, if I use AA and SF right away and whenever they're up, my mana holds well. So I would agree with not waiting on CDs. The only exception is AA + Heroism is a must, so be sure you know when Heroism will be and time AA accordingly.
    Yeah. As with all classes, you would wanna have your damage increasing cool downs up for Blood Lust/Heroism. It is important to make it clear to your Shamans and Mages that there is a set part of the fight that Heroism is going to be popped. That way, you can help plan it out. 20% Mind Flay damage @ 30% increased speed, yes please. Excellent point.

    Quote Originally Posted by cruxxy View Post
    4) You glossed over how much hit is undervalued in the current simulation. It is a point of considerable debate. The hitcap is no longer considered mandatory. The primary reason being that DoTs last so much longer than pre-Cata, recast frequency is much less, so missing one has less impact on DPS. The one factor not considered is human reaction time.
    For this reason BiS gear is incredibly difficult to assess. By pure stats, BiS would be to grab all haste/crit or haste/mastery gear but can you really accept a hit rating of zero and avoid all spirit/hit gear?

    My personal preference is to still maintain my hitcap. Once I know all the fights, perhaps it will be less important but while I'm trying to dodge all the mess I'm supposed to, the last thing I want to worry about is missing DoTs. [/quote]

    I was wondering if anyone was going to call me out on that, I didn't want to get into that one. As per simcraft results, yes, hit and spirit are coming out as not as valuable as other stats (even mastery *gasp*). Forgive me if you know this already, but the way that simcraft works (at least how I set it up to run) was it runs 10000 tests using the same gear profile and the program adjusts stats over multiple passes to see their affects on DPS. This is how you get the scaling factors listed in the stat weights. If you rerun the sims with less hit rating, you will see its value increase. This leads to the hypothesis of when does hit/spirit overtake the value of haste.

    This value is somewhere between the hit cap and 0 hit (not very specific I know). I'm on board with people who say getting the hit cap is important. The tests that are showing hit/spirit lower than our other stats are averages over those 10000 runs of the profile. It is possible that not being hit capped could boost your DPS, but a string of bad misses, or not recovering properly from a missed cast will probably negate the DPS gain by dropping your hit rating. This is an assumption based on some information, but mostly on trying to work out the logic behind it. I would highly recommend not getting any hit items over crit/haste/mastery combination items.

    ---------- Post added 2010-12-21 at 06:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Abb View Post
    I don't like this. That assumes you cannot get into position, while completely avoiding the max dps opener. While openers do have little affect on the overall dps, why gimp yourself when you can easily do better?
    If you read on, its based on the assumption you need to get somewhere on the pull. If you're where you want to be when the fights start, then yes, cast Vampiric Touch first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abb View Post
    I'm using: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word Pain, Mind Flay x5 ticks for Dark Evangelism, Mind Blast if an orb has procced, 6th tick of Mind Flay if an orb hasn't procced, Devouring Plague, Recast Vampiric Touch if you cast Mind Blast.

    Firstly, as you say, Vamp Touch is our highest damage per cast time spell, so get it up there ASAP. Followed by Shadow Word Pain as we want as many orb procs as possible. As it is an instant, we can time those 2 spells to go off right as the task pulls. If you really do have to move into position, get your feral to pop stampeding roar to get there faster and do Shadow Word Pain first.
    As Dev Plague has such a long duration (and mana cost to a lesser extent) you want it to have at least one buff when you put it up. You can guarantee to have Dark Evangelism stacks up, so why not get them up as early as you can? Casting 5 Mind Flay ticks stacks this up for 10% extra damage and a lot more chances for a shadow orb to proc to buff it further.
    If an orb has procced after 5 ticks, cancel the last tick of Mind Flay, Mind blast to activate Empowered Shadows buff, apply Dev Plague and then reapply Vampiric Touch. VT will still have 3-5 seconds left depending on your haste, but increasing its damage by around 25% depending on your mastery is worth losing some casting time by reapplying it early (remember it no longer clips).
    If you do not have an orb proc after stacking up Dark Evangelism, carry on with the 6th tick, cast Devouring Plague and spam Mind flay (while refreshing VT as it should be falling off soonish) until you get one (I have had a few extremely unlucky phases. One Valiona fight I didn't have a proc of it until her second blackout (I hate our mastery)). When you finally do cast one, reapply Vampiric Touch and Dev Plague immediately after activating it with Mind Blast, then proceed as normal.

    It sounds complicated, but its making the best use out of the stupidly RNG ramp-up time we have.
    Not making this easy, eh? Honestly, I am sitting here trying to think whether spending time using lower DPET spells more in the opening for their added gain later, is better than what I have proposed. In either system, you should have full Dark Evangelism stacks and Empowered Shadows for the second cast of Vampiric Touch and Devouring Plague. That being said, only the ticks of when your Devouring Plague start in comparison to when they ticked alongside mine would be relevant. I would gain extra damage through having an earlier Devouring Plague, and you would gain the %damage bonus to your Devouring plague ticks after, as well as the added damage you use during my GCD. Does the % gain on the few relevant ticks + a GCD's worth of damage outweigh the damage gain by having a higher damaging spell going on earlier?

    The time table in considering all this is very complicated like you said and I find it difficult to come up with a definitive answer on my own. Your logic is sound though. One thing that I think helps back up my point is the priority action list which simcraft uses when it simulates fights. It is up to the reader whether to accept simcraft practices, but I find them very reliable and defer to their judgment in most cases (some smart people work on this program):

    actions+=/volcanic_potion,if=!in_combat
    actions+=/volcanic_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=40
    actions+=/mind_blast,if=buff.shadow_orb.stack>=1&buff.empowered_shadow.remains<=gcd+0.5
    actions+=/shadow_word_pain,if=(!ticking|dot.shadow_word_pain.remains<gcd+0.5)&miss_react
    actions+=/devouring_plague,if=(!ticking|dot.devouring_plague.remains<gcd+0.5)&miss_react
    actions+=/stop_moving,health_percentage<=25,if=cooldown.shadow_word_death.remains>=0.2|dot.vampiric_ touch.remains<cast_time+0.5
    actions+=/vampiric_touch,if=(!ticking|dot.vampiric_touch.remains<cast_time+0.5)&miss_react
    actions+=/start_moving,health_percentage<=25,if=cooldown.shadow_word_death.remains<=0.1
    actions+=/dark_archangel,if=buff.dark_evangelism.stack>=5&dot.vampiric_touch.remains>5&dot.devouring _plague.remains>5
    actions+=/shadow_word_death,health_percentage<=25
    actions+=/shadow_fiend
    actions+=/mind_blast,if=buff.shadow_orb.stack>=1
    actions+=/mind_flay
    actions+=/dispersion,moving=1
    actions+=/devouring_plague,moving=1,if=mana_pct>10
    actions+=/shadow_word_death,moving=1
    actions+=/dispersion

    The results of this explain that Mind Blast should be top priority if Empowered Shadows has less than the cast time of Mind Blast left. Next, Shadow Word: Pain > Devouring Plague > Vampiric Touch > Shadow Word: Death (if <25%) > Mind Blast 1-3 Orbs > Mind Flay.

    This is mostly in line with what I had proposed, except for some variation on Vampiric Touch. I can't explain why it is there on the action list, below Devouring Plague, but I assume it has something to do with the possibility to jiggle around and cause a Shadowy Apparition proc with the GCD on Devouring Plague.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abb View Post
    As an edit, I have also noticed another thing wrong with the opener. Why do you want us to cast a Mind Blast before the MF, when there can only have been, at a maximum, 2 SWP ticks? The chances of you having an orb then is very low, I wouldn't count on it. Its much more reliable to stack Dark Evangelism up then, then cast a MB and get all of your DOT buffs rolling at once.
    Again this is based off hopes and dreams of a Shadow Orb proc. I expressly state that fact. You won't cast Mind Blast before Mind Flay if you have 0 orbs, which is why it has the qualifying 1-3 orbs. If you get an orb proc, cast Mind Blast, if not, cast Mind Flay. This was in later posts and not apart of the original post, I updated it with a clarification.
    Last edited by New; 2010-12-21 at 07:50 PM. Reason: Added info on simcraft action priority

  12. #32
    Ok. I'm approaching this guide as a person who leveled 1-70 as holy, pre-dual-spec, raided for a grand total of 30 minutes as Shadow in Burning Crusade (the rest as holy), and MAYBE an hour or two as shadow in Wrath.

    Suffice it to say, I'm not familiar with the DPS role as a priest.

    I already see the writing on the wall though, with spirit standing in for hit, that I could at any time be asked to DPS for a raid instead of healing, and I'm going to need to know HOW.

    I see that Shadowfiend isn't mentioned at all in the guide. I'm assuming that this is something I'd be using on a semi-regular basis, what with the minute-smaller cooldown, and the cooldown reduction from mind flay. What I *don't* know is when to start using it, nor whether or not I should be using it the moment it comes off cooldown, or waiting, or what. My assumption is to pop it the moment I hit something like 70% mana or some other arbitrary number, and continue to use it as it comes off cooldown, but I'd like a more informed idea from people who actually have a clue.

    EDIT: Nor do I see dispersion mentioned, really.
    Last edited by Moleculor; 2010-12-21 at 08:03 PM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moleculor View Post
    I see that Shadowfiend isn't mentioned at all in the guide.
    EDIT: Nor do I see dispersion mentioned, really.
    You're right. I sort of glossed over those thinking they weren't hugely important. I added something about those for you.
    Last edited by New; 2010-12-21 at 08:22 PM.

  14. #34
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    This is excellent and I hope it becomes one of the stickies. I think we're finally getting to the point where gathering up threads, organizing the information and getting it all in one place is feasible.

    ---------- Post added 2010-12-21 at 10:47 PM ----------

    Re: SW-Death:

    Opinion seems to be rapidly converging around the idea that for anyone needing mana regeneration the most bang for the buck is in using Shadow Word: Death on cooldown (or at least regularly) when target health is greater than 25%. Blowback damage is relatively light and mana returned is comparatively large. Basically, it does the same thing for shadow priests as lifetap does for warlocks.

    Re: Mind Spike usage

    1. Excellent for questing 81-83 at the very least and possibly beyond. MSpx3, MB, then SW-D or whatever required to finish up.
    2. Possible use in burn phase of boss fights when expected target life may not warrant refreshing dots. If it's truly the end of a long fight it may not really matter much but SW-Dx2, MSpx3 used with MB and whatever is required to get back to SW-Dx2 is very bursty as long as it doesn't kill the priest. Situational but useful.

    ---------- Post added 2010-12-21 at 11:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Okay, now here's my two questions regarding Mind Blast:

    Empowered Shadows just fell off, you have zero Shadow Orbs. Mind Blast is not worth casting until this changes, correct?

    And scenario two:

    You have three shadow orbs, and 6+ seconds left on Empowered Shadows. Do you Mind Blast immediately, using the bonus damage now to hopefully rack up more for the next one?
    I can feel myself curling up inside a little when it comes time to start refreshing dots, there's 4-6 seconds left on Empowered Shadows and I haven't got an orb yet. It throws me off enough that I usually lose a GCD thinking about what to do next. Mostly just appreciating the question

    I haven't really gotten comfortable yet with "do A if X or do B if Y" when X/Y are entirely dependent on RNG.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2010-12-22 at 06:54 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I can feel myself curling up inside a little when it comes time to start refreshing dots, there's 4-6 seconds left on Empowered Shadows and I haven't got an orb yet. It throws me off enough that I usually lose a GCD thinking about what to do next. Mostly just appreciating the question

    I haven't really gotten comfortable yet with "do A if X or do B if Y" when X/Y are entirely dependent on RNG.
    Get yourself a nice set of PowerAuras, and get comfortable with them.

    I personally use three seperate icons. One for Empowered Shadows with a duration less than 4 seconds. One with a Shadow Orb, directly underneath it, both of these are relatively small and just off to the left. But I have a big ugly sign right overtop of my character when Empowered Shadows falls off. I don't like this sign, so I try to remove it.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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  16. #36
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    This is excellent and I hope it becomes one of the stickies. I think we're finally getting to the point where gathering up threads, organizing the information and getting it all in one place is feasible.
    Thank you for reading it.

    You make some points about Shadow Word: Death and Mind Spike I would like to talk about. I feel I covered Shadow Word: Death pretty well in the initial pass, but perhaps I could add expand the part about it being used as a mana return. Personally, I like to avoid using it when you don't need to, as using it > 25% is a DPS loss. But of course, going OOM is a bigger DPS loss .

    As for Mind Spike, perhaps I didn't show it as much love as I should have. You're right about leveling. This spell is a great leveling tool, and I use it all the time with dailies (at the point where I'm 3 shotting things in Deepholm). I didn't feel that part necessary as I meant it to be more of a raid guide than a leveling guide. Perhaps I'll add something regarding that as well. For use in raids, the general rule of thumb I have been going with is if a target is going to last more than 30 seconds, I'll use a normal priority rotation. If it is less than that, I'll use a Mind Spike + MB combo rotation.

    Another thing you should concern yourself with is, not only be careful when using Mind Spike in regards to a target's life-span, but also remember that you're the prime Dark Intent target. If you go happy-go-lucky with Mind Spike too long, you may piss off your Warlock and he may stop putting it on you. He won't get any Dark Intent stacks if you're not using your DOTs.

    Shadow Orbs are a pain in the ass sometimes. Unfortunately, you just gotta stick to your guns and hold off on your Mind Blast cast until a Shadow Orb procs.

    ---------- Post added 2010-12-22 at 03:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Get yourself a nice set of PowerAuras, and get comfortable with them.
    I couldn't agree more. They are incredibly useful.

  17. #37
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Get yourself a nice set of PowerAuras, and get comfortable with them.
    I have just jumped into the Power Aura pool as of 4.0.1, importing a set for Shadow Priests from the Power Aura wiki. I've spent the time since then getting used to them, tweaking them, moving them around to see what works best and adding on a couple of things. Real life has made it a difficult thing to internalize to the point where it all feels entirely natural but I've got a few days off starting tomorrow and plan on hitting the training dummies and run some instances to wrap that up. I like them a lot but haven't yet gotten to the point where I can just glance up and go, "Oh crap..."

  18. #38
    Do the attribute scaling factors discussed above (e.g. .5318 haste = 1 intellect) take into account the "haste plateaus" discussed above? I am a little above 10% haste and have been stacking but I am wondering whether it is truly superior to crit/hit/mastery when there it'll be a while until I can make it to 18% haste for the extra tick of devouring plague.

    Given that I can't increase any dot ticks by stacking haste atm, should I still prefer haste to other attributes? Any clarification you can provide is much appreciated.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarakh View Post
    Do the attribute scaling factors discussed above (e.g. .5318 haste = 1 intellect) take into account the "haste plateaus" discussed above? I am a little above 10% haste and have been stacking but I am wondering whether it is truly superior to crit/hit/mastery when there it'll be a while until I can make it to 18% haste for the extra tick of devouring plague.

    Given that I can't increase any dot ticks by stacking haste atm, should I still prefer haste to other attributes? Any clarification you can provide is much appreciated.
    Those scale factors would have the plateaus factored in as they would result in how the sims run. The point of using the BIS scaling factors shows you what your stats are going to gravitate towards as you gear up, and thus, should roughly follow them in new gear selection. If you're interested in your own scaling factors, you can load your own character profile from the armory and run it:

    http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/

    Scale factors will continuously change as you gain and lose stats. You just may find at your current balance of stats, getting a Crit+Mastery piece may be superior to a haste piece (especially if you have ALOT of Haste versus Crit/Mastery). The haste plateaus are there for if you see yourself roughly close to one, it may be worth while to push yourself over it for a DPS gain. It by no way means that getting more haste between these levels should be avoided though. I highly recommend a personal profile run through the sim just to see.


    Myself as of 5:38 PM, December 22, 2010:

    # Gear Summary
    # gear_stamina=4698
    # gear_intellect=4040
    # gear_spirit=1155
    # gear_spell_power=1729
    # gear_hit_rating=489
    # gear_crit_rating=755
    # gear_haste_rating=1825
    # gear_mastery_rating=415
    # gear_armor=7430
    # main_hand=scepter_of_power,heroic=1,weapon=mace_2.30speed_329min_613max,enchant=hurricane

    Int = 1.0000 Spirit = 0.3521 Spell Power = 0.7687 Hit = 0.3480 Crit = 0.3819 Haste = 0.4263 Mastery = 0.3360

    It still seems to hold true, even at 14.25% haste.
    Last edited by New; 2010-12-22 at 09:43 PM.

  20. #40
    It might be worth noting that Empowered Shadows do not automaticly update between VT and DP ticks. They both have to be refreshed manually to gain the benefit from the mastery buff. So if you cast VT and DP while you do not have Empowered Shadows, but gain it afterwards VT and DP do not have the % buff to their damage. It's unclear wether recasting VT and DP in this case is a dps gain or loss. Personally I've waited to refresh VT and DP when they're running out.

    EDIT: It might be safe to assume Evangelism is equally limited.
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