Thank you!!! Much appreciated. Although what's a good rotation right now?
Thank you!!! Much appreciated. Although what's a good rotation right now?
Furthermore, from the various things I have read, changes in debuffs/buffs require a reapplication of the spell to take advantage of the benefit. I haven't tested how outside debuffs on the target affect DOT damage if applied when the DOT is already running. I will try to test this later to make a personal decision on the issue and will get back to you.
---------- Post added 2010-12-21 at 04:24 AM ----------
The basic idea is that you always want to keep your DOTs rolling in the order provided above, with the possibility of Mind Blast changing should Empowered Shadows falls off. Use Dark Arch Angel when you have some low health adds you need to kill kill quickly (omnitron slimes perhaps?), or when you know you have ~15 seconds before you need to recast Vampiric Touch or Devouring Plague (ideally right after a Vampiric Tocuh application).
Excellent post New.
I'm currently using the folowing opener.
SW:P -> DP -> VT -> MF -> MF -> MB
If i have ES up when i'm done i refreshing VT and DP
SF -> Normal rotation
Going into normal rotation
- Keep DOTs up , clip MF to refresh them if needed
- MB on CD if Orb >= 1
- Use archangel if it's up and my DOTs refreshed before 1-3 seconds
- SW: D when moving
- SF on CD
- Stick SW: D if i'm running low on mana
- Use SW: D on CD if HP<25%
About ES in general i found it almost impossible to fall off during a normal rotation.
Last edited by Keosen; 2010-12-21 at 07:59 AM.
Also on the topic of MB, I don't really care about 1-3 orbs tbh, unless I have archangel up I just use MB to keep ES as close to 100% as I can or when its an insta cast as a result of Mind Spiking adds.
But if we are standing still and the boss is coming to us, I open with a VT and go DP and SWP.
Also I don't like keeping SF on CD because with such low crit % in raids these days you are getting virtually no time off your CD from Sin and Punishment. Therefore since the damage wouldn't be a bonus at the start of the fight and at the start you are getting an Archangel fairly soon into your rotation, I tend to either pop SF when I REALLY need the mana or right before BL like old times.
Also on longer fights IE Cho'gall and Twilight Council I was using SWD on CD to keep my mana up and not using SWP for multi dotting, just VT.
And I seem to be having the complete opposite experience with ES than you, for me its a hassle to hope that you get an orb to proc if not I've spent 3-4 full channels at the start of my rotation before I even get ONE orb, other times I've gotten one on the first tick. And now between keeping Evangelism stacks up, clipping dots, refreshing dots, multi-dotting, and overall fight mechanics, it gets to be really annoying to try and keep as close to 100% uptime on the buff as I can.
Last edited by YankeePhan1234; 2010-12-21 at 08:08 AM.
Me personally, since Shadowpriest has zero use of Blizzards "Power Auras" proc graphics, I wish they would show it there ('left' fills in for 1, then 'up' for two, and 'right' for all 3, 'down' for Empowered Shadows rolling). But since they don't have something like that, is there an addon or something that tracks this easily? Or should I just add Orbs + Empowered Shadows to my tracked buffs on ForteXorcist?
Nice post, only thing I took issue with was:
The choice of prime glyphs displayed in the link should be fairly obvious as these are the only 3 prime glyphs resulting in a DPS gain. Choices of major and minor slot glyphs are mostly up to personal choice, as there are no DPS increase major or minor glyphs. I have selected the following Prime glyphs as a general framework:
* Glyph of Mind Flay
* Glyph of Shadow Word: Death
* Glyph of Shadow Word: Pain
I think you have to at least acknowledge that the glyph of dispersion can be replaced with glyph of mind flay. A lot of the top shadow priests in the world use dispersion simply for the survivability and, obviously, the more mana regen the better. Especially in lower tiers of gear.
---------- Post added 2010-12-21 at 04:04 PM ----------
Version:3.0.0W; b:0.8902; g:0.098; icon:spell_priest_shadoworbs; buffname:Shadow Orb; r:0.6275; texture:5; alpha:1; symetrie:3; isResting:0; size:0.36; torsion:1.09; y:-80; stacks.enabled:true; stacks.y:-100; stacks.h:1.41; stacks.Texture:Crystal
You can change the graphic/size/color/whatever you like, but it is already set up to track Shadow Orbs and give you a counter of 1, 2, or 3. If you don't use Power Auras, there are lots of other add-ons you could tweak to help track your orbs.
Last edited by New; 2010-12-21 at 04:05 PM.
Nicely done. I always appreciate when all the basic numbers are compiled into one post. A few comments.
1) Could you add optimal enchants to your guide?
2) I don't believe that there are hard data to say exactly what the "best" opener really is right now. I am partial to SWP -> Mind Flay to 5 stacks -> MB (assuming I have an orb) -> VT/DP -> Archangel - flay away. It is rare that I don't get an orb with that (but yes, it does happen). Is this better than opening with triple DoTs? I don't think anyone knows. I'm guessing in a typical boss fight, it doesn't really matter in the end.
3) I would also agree that mana is really not an issue, assuming you are not MSp bursting adds throughout the fight. Even fights like Ascendent Council where I am double dotting for most of the fight, if I use AA and SF right away and whenever they're up, my mana holds well. So I would agree with not waiting on CDs. The only exception is AA + Heroism is a must, so be sure you know when Heroism will be and time AA accordingly.
4) You glossed over how much hit is undervalued in the current simulation. It is a point of considerable debate. The hitcap is no longer considered mandatory. The primary reason being that DoTs last so much longer than pre-Cata, recast frequency is much less, so missing one has less impact on DPS. The one factor not considered is human reaction time.
For this reason BiS gear is incredibly difficult to assess. By pure stats, BiS would be to grab all haste/crit or haste/mastery gear but can you really accept a hit rating of zero and avoid all spirit/hit gear?
My personal preference is to still maintain my hitcap. Once I know all the fights, perhaps it will be less important but while I'm trying to dodge all the mess I'm supposed to, the last thing I want to worry about is missing DoTs.
Hope you get stickied soon.
I don't like this. That assumes you cannot get into position, while completely avoiding the max dps opener. While openers do have little affect on the overall dps, why gimp yourself when you can easily do better?Opener:____________Shadow Word: Pain > Devouring Plague > Vampiric Touch > Mind Blast 1-3 Orbs > Mind Flay until first Orb
I'm using: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word Pain, Mind Flay x5 ticks for Dark Evangelism, Mind Blast if an orb has procced, 6th tick of Mind Flay if an orb hasn't procced, Devouring Plague, Recast Vampiric Touch if you cast Mind Blast.
Firstly, as you say, Vamp Touch is our highest damage per cast time spell, so get it up there ASAP. Followed by Shadow Word Pain as we want as many orb procs as possible. As it is an instant, we can time those 2 spells to go off right as the task pulls. If you really do have to move into position, get your feral to pop stampeding roar to get there faster and do Shadow Word Pain first.
As Dev Plague has such a long duration (and mana cost to a lesser extent) you want it to have at least one buff when you put it up. You can guarantee to have Dark Evangelism stacks up, so why not get them up as early as you can? Casting 5 Mind Flay ticks stacks this up for 10% extra damage and a lot more chances for a shadow orb to proc to buff it further.
If an orb has procced after 5 ticks, cancel the last tick of Mind Flay, Mind blast to activate Empowered Shadows buff, apply Dev Plague and then reapply Vampiric Touch. VT will still have 3-5 seconds left depending on your haste, but increasing its damage by around 25% depending on your mastery is worth losing some casting time by reapplying it early (remember it no longer clips).
If you do not have an orb proc after stacking up Dark Evangelism, carry on with the 6th tick, cast Devouring Plague and spam Mind flay (while refreshing VT as it should be falling off soonish) until you get one (I have had a few extremely unlucky phases. One Valiona fight I didn't have a proc of it until her second blackout (I hate our mastery)). When you finally do cast one, reapply Vampiric Touch and Dev Plague immediately after activating it with Mind Blast, then proceed as normal.
It sounds complicated, but its making the best use out of the stupidly RNG ramp-up time we have.
As an edit, I have also noticed another thing wrong with the opener. Why do you want us to cast a Mind Blast before the MF, when there can only have been, at a maximum, 2 SWP ticks? The chances of you having an orb then is very low, I wouldn't count on it. Its much more reliable to stack Dark Evangelism up then, then cast a MB and get all of your DOT buffs rolling at once.
Last edited by Abb; 2010-12-21 at 05:12 PM.
Shadow Priest Main
Originally Posted by Zarhym
My personal preference is to still maintain my hitcap. Once I know all the fights, perhaps it will be less important but while I'm trying to dodge all the mess I'm supposed to, the last thing I want to worry about is missing DoTs. [/quote]
I was wondering if anyone was going to call me out on that, I didn't want to get into that one. As per simcraft results, yes, hit and spirit are coming out as not as valuable as other stats (even mastery *gasp*). Forgive me if you know this already, but the way that simcraft works (at least how I set it up to run) was it runs 10000 tests using the same gear profile and the program adjusts stats over multiple passes to see their affects on DPS. This is how you get the scaling factors listed in the stat weights. If you rerun the sims with less hit rating, you will see its value increase. This leads to the hypothesis of when does hit/spirit overtake the value of haste.
This value is somewhere between the hit cap and 0 hit (not very specific I know). I'm on board with people who say getting the hit cap is important. The tests that are showing hit/spirit lower than our other stats are averages over those 10000 runs of the profile. It is possible that not being hit capped could boost your DPS, but a string of bad misses, or not recovering properly from a missed cast will probably negate the DPS gain by dropping your hit rating. This is an assumption based on some information, but mostly on trying to work out the logic behind it. I would highly recommend not getting any hit items over crit/haste/mastery combination items.
---------- Post added 2010-12-21 at 06:13 PM ----------
The time table in considering all this is very complicated like you said and I find it difficult to come up with a definitive answer on my own. Your logic is sound though. One thing that I think helps back up my point is the priority action list which simcraft uses when it simulates fights. It is up to the reader whether to accept simcraft practices, but I find them very reliable and defer to their judgment in most cases (some smart people work on this program):
The results of this explain that Mind Blast should be top priority if Empowered Shadows has less than the cast time of Mind Blast left. Next, Shadow Word: Pain > Devouring Plague > Vampiric Touch > Shadow Word: Death (if <25%) > Mind Blast 1-3 Orbs > Mind Flay.
This is mostly in line with what I had proposed, except for some variation on Vampiric Touch. I can't explain why it is there on the action list, below Devouring Plague, but I assume it has something to do with the possibility to jiggle around and cause a Shadowy Apparition proc with the GCD on Devouring Plague.
Last edited by New; 2010-12-21 at 07:50 PM. Reason: Added info on simcraft action priority
Ok. I'm approaching this guide as a person who leveled 1-70 as holy, pre-dual-spec, raided for a grand total of 30 minutes as Shadow in Burning Crusade (the rest as holy), and MAYBE an hour or two as shadow in Wrath.
Suffice it to say, I'm not familiar with the DPS role as a priest.
I already see the writing on the wall though, with spirit standing in for hit, that I could at any time be asked to DPS for a raid instead of healing, and I'm going to need to know HOW.
I see that Shadowfiend isn't mentioned at all in the guide. I'm assuming that this is something I'd be using on a semi-regular basis, what with the minute-smaller cooldown, and the cooldown reduction from mind flay. What I *don't* know is when to start using it, nor whether or not I should be using it the moment it comes off cooldown, or waiting, or what. My assumption is to pop it the moment I hit something like 70% mana or some other arbitrary number, and continue to use it as it comes off cooldown, but I'd like a more informed idea from people who actually have a clue.
EDIT: Nor do I see dispersion mentioned, really.
Last edited by Moleculor; 2010-12-21 at 08:03 PM.
This is excellent and I hope it becomes one of the stickies. I think we're finally getting to the point where gathering up threads, organizing the information and getting it all in one place is feasible.
---------- Post added 2010-12-21 at 10:47 PM ----------
Opinion seems to be rapidly converging around the idea that for anyone needing mana regeneration the most bang for the buck is in using Shadow Word: Death on cooldown (or at least regularly) when target health is greater than 25%. Blowback damage is relatively light and mana returned is comparatively large. Basically, it does the same thing for shadow priests as lifetap does for warlocks.
Re: Mind Spike usage
1. Excellent for questing 81-83 at the very least and possibly beyond. MSpx3, MB, then SW-D or whatever required to finish up.
2. Possible use in burn phase of boss fights when expected target life may not warrant refreshing dots. If it's truly the end of a long fight it may not really matter much but SW-Dx2, MSpx3 used with MB and whatever is required to get back to SW-Dx2 is very bursty as long as it doesn't kill the priest. Situational but useful.
---------- Post added 2010-12-21 at 11:04 PM ----------
I haven't really gotten comfortable yet with "do A if X or do B if Y" when X/Y are entirely dependent on RNG.
Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2010-12-22 at 06:54 AM.
I personally use three seperate icons. One for Empowered Shadows with a duration less than 4 seconds. One with a Shadow Orb, directly underneath it, both of these are relatively small and just off to the left. But I have a big ugly sign right overtop of my character when Empowered Shadows falls off. I don't like this sign, so I try to remove it.
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You make some points about Shadow Word: Death and Mind Spike I would like to talk about. I feel I covered Shadow Word: Death pretty well in the initial pass, but perhaps I could add expand the part about it being used as a mana return. Personally, I like to avoid using it when you don't need to, as using it > 25% is a DPS loss. But of course, going OOM is a bigger DPS loss .
As for Mind Spike, perhaps I didn't show it as much love as I should have. You're right about leveling. This spell is a great leveling tool, and I use it all the time with dailies (at the point where I'm 3 shotting things in Deepholm). I didn't feel that part necessary as I meant it to be more of a raid guide than a leveling guide. Perhaps I'll add something regarding that as well. For use in raids, the general rule of thumb I have been going with is if a target is going to last more than 30 seconds, I'll use a normal priority rotation. If it is less than that, I'll use a Mind Spike + MB combo rotation.
Another thing you should concern yourself with is, not only be careful when using Mind Spike in regards to a target's life-span, but also remember that you're the prime Dark Intent target. If you go happy-go-lucky with Mind Spike too long, you may piss off your Warlock and he may stop putting it on you. He won't get any Dark Intent stacks if you're not using your DOTs.
Shadow Orbs are a pain in the ass sometimes. Unfortunately, you just gotta stick to your guns and hold off on your Mind Blast cast until a Shadow Orb procs.
---------- Post added 2010-12-22 at 03:40 PM ----------
Do the attribute scaling factors discussed above (e.g. .5318 haste = 1 intellect) take into account the "haste plateaus" discussed above? I am a little above 10% haste and have been stacking but I am wondering whether it is truly superior to crit/hit/mastery when there it'll be a while until I can make it to 18% haste for the extra tick of devouring plague.
Given that I can't increase any dot ticks by stacking haste atm, should I still prefer haste to other attributes? Any clarification you can provide is much appreciated.
Scale factors will continuously change as you gain and lose stats. You just may find at your current balance of stats, getting a Crit+Mastery piece may be superior to a haste piece (especially if you have ALOT of Haste versus Crit/Mastery). The haste plateaus are there for if you see yourself roughly close to one, it may be worth while to push yourself over it for a DPS gain. It by no way means that getting more haste between these levels should be avoided though. I highly recommend a personal profile run through the sim just to see.
Myself as of 5:38 PM, December 22, 2010:
# Gear Summary
Int = 1.0000 Spirit = 0.3521 Spell Power = 0.7687 Hit = 0.3480 Crit = 0.3819 Haste = 0.4263 Mastery = 0.3360
It still seems to hold true, even at 14.25% haste.
Last edited by New; 2010-12-22 at 09:43 PM.
It might be worth noting that Empowered Shadows do not automaticly update between VT and DP ticks. They both have to be refreshed manually to gain the benefit from the mastery buff. So if you cast VT and DP while you do not have Empowered Shadows, but gain it afterwards VT and DP do not have the % buff to their damage. It's unclear wether recasting VT and DP in this case is a dps gain or loss. Personally I've waited to refresh VT and DP when they're running out.
EDIT: It might be safe to assume Evangelism is equally limited.