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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haldurion View Post
    It might be worth noting that Empowered Shadows do not automaticly update between VT and DP ticks. They both have to be refreshed manually to gain the benefit from the mastery buff. So if you cast VT and DP while you do not have Empowered Shadows, but gain it afterwards VT and DP do not have the % buff to their damage. It's unclear wether recasting VT and DP in this case is a dps gain or loss. Personally I've waited to refresh VT and DP when they're running out.

    EDIT: It might be safe to assume Evangelism is equally limited.
    You are right in your assumptions. We have talked about this in the following discussion after my original post, however, the issues of how DOT mechanics work may have not been directly discussed. Devouring Plague and Vampiric Touch do not benefit from things like Empowered Shadows and Dark Evangelism if these buffs go up after the initial application of the DOT. The reason I did not discuss this idea directly in the guide is because I feel it is a moot point (but maybe I'll add something about it just for clarification).

    It is my opinion that you will gain more DPS by using your DOTs early, even before Dark Evangelism and Empowered Shadows go up, when starting a fight. Since Dark Evangelism and Empowered Shadows should be up by the next time you need to reapply your DOTs, this leaves the window of variation between using them earlier or waiting quite small. Also, I don't like the idea of casting your DOTs, then reapplying them immediately after you gain your Dark Evangelism stacks and Empowered Shadows. I feel it would be better to just wait for their normal reapplication.

    These are assumptions based on logic, and while I have seen the idea you proposed by other people, I have yet to see someone present a conclusive answer on the best way to open. However, I have requested it. I think the idea is that most people don't want to put in the time to figure out whats the best way to DPS over a span of ~12 seconds (I could be wrong). I still look forward to an answer though. For now, I'll stick with what seems to make sense, as well as follow what simcraft codes as its priority action list.
    Last edited by New; 2010-12-25 at 02:51 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by New View Post
    You are right in your assumptions. We have talked about this in the following discussion after my original post, however, the issues of how DOT mechanics work may have not been directly discussed. Devouring Plague and Vampiric Touch do not benefit from things like Empowered Shadows and Dark Evangelism if these buffs go up after the initial application of the DOT. The reason I did not discuss this idea directly in the guide is because I feel it is a moot point (but maybe I'll add something about it just for clarification).

    It is my opinion that you will gain more DPS by using your DOTs early, even before Dark Evangelism and Empowered Shadows go up, when starting a fight. Since Dark Evangelism and Empowered Shadows should be up by the next time you need to reapply your DOTs, this leaves the window of variation between using them earlier or waiting quite small. Also, I don't like the idea of casting your DOTs, then reapplying them immediately after you gain your Dark Evangelism stacks and Empowered Shadows. I feel it would be better to just wait for their normal reapplication.
    First of all, thanks for your time in making this guide! im sure a lot of people will find this helpful.
    What you say is all true but leaving out the mechanics of how Dots work can be very helpful information for fully knowing your class. It explains for instance that you want to mindblast first with an orb before you Cast that VT or DP if you have not the empowered buff, and explains you want to use AA in a time window that you atleast get the 5x stacks back before you refresh VT or DP.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir View Post
    First of all, thanks for your time in making this guide! im sure a lot of people will find this helpful.
    What you say is all true but leaving out the mechanics of how Dots work can be very helpful information for fully knowing your class. It explains for instance that you want to mindblast first with an orb before you Cast that VT or DP if you have not the empowered buff, and explains you want to use AA in a time window that you atleast get the 5x stacks back before you refresh VT or DP.
    You are absolutely correct. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I wrote this with ideas in my head as a guide for everyone new and old, and neglected some of the game mechanics governing our DPSing lives. I had assumed that people reading had a full grasp on core mechanics so I did not include some things relating to them in the guide.

    I deal with some them indirectly through my explanation of ideas and in further discussions and posts by other people. However, a dedicated spot related to game mechanics (especially the DOT mechanic you're mentioning) does appear to be missing. I will add something in the way of relevant game mechanics work and how they impact us.

    Added: The idea of when to use Arch Angel is already explained. Also, the idea of casting Mind Blast with at least one orb is explained as well. I have added a section how some core mechanics work.
    Last edited by New; 2010-12-27 at 05:56 AM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by New View Post
    You are right in your assumptions. We have talked about this in the following discussion after my original post, however, the issues of how DOT mechanics work may have not been directly discussed. Devouring Plague and Vampiric Touch do not benefit from things like Empowered Shadows and Dark Evangelism if these buffs go up after the initial application of the DOT. The reason I did not discuss this idea directly in the guide is because I feel it is a moot point (but maybe I'll add something about it just for clarification).

    It is my opinion that you will gain more DPS by using your DOTs early, even before Dark Evangelism and Empowered Shadows go up, when starting a fight. Since Dark Evangelism and Empowered Shadows should be up by the next time you need to reapply your DOTs, this leaves the window of variation between using them earlier or waiting quite small. Also, I don't like the idea of casting your DOTs, then reapplying them immediately after you gain your Dark Evangelism stacks and Empowered Shadows. I feel it would be better to just wait for their normal reapplication.

    These are assumptions based on logic, and while I have seen the idea you proposed by other people, I have yet to see someone present a conclusive answer on the best way to open. However, I have requested it. I think the idea is that most people don't want to put in the time to figure out whats the best way to DPS over a span of ~12 seconds (I could be wrong). I still look forward to an answer though. For now, I'll stick with what seems to make sense, as well as follow what simcraft codes as its priority action list.
    I agree with this new, I did some testing This weekend for the best opener and to see what my average dps was after 30 seconds, it seems on average no matter what my opener was (tried 4 diff ones)my average DPS after 30 seconds was usually 75% of my average DPS on a heroic Dummy. The only time it dipped was when I was waiting to MB because I had no dark orb that didn't proc after 2 MFs, there was a couple of fights I couldn't get one to save my life.

    The best Opener in 30 second DPS I had was
    MSP
    MF
    MSP
    MF
    MSP
    MB
    Then apply my dots and do my rotation as normal.
    I actually hit 97% of average DPS in 30 seconds a couple of times but it was very inconsistent and complicated than other openers and would not be ideal in a "running into
    position" boss fight
    Last edited by zenkai; 2010-12-27 at 04:13 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    I agree with this new, I did some testing This weekend for the best opener and to see what my average dps was after 30 seconds, it seems on average no matter what my opener was (tried 4 diff ones)my average DPS after 30 seconds was usually 75% of my average DPS on a heroic Dummy. The only time it dipped was when I was waiting to MB because I had no dark orb that didn't proc after 2 MFs, there was a couple of fights I couldn't get one to save my life.

    The best Opener in 30 second DPS I had was
    MSP
    MF
    MSP
    MF
    MSP
    MB
    Then apply my dots and do my rotation as normal.
    I actually hit 97% of average DPS in 30 seconds a couple of times but it was very inconsistent and complicated than other openers and would not be ideal in a "running into
    position" boss fight
    Thank you for sharing your tests with me. A very bizarre take on opening I must say. I will have to give it a try some time. Also be wary though, 30 seconds of no DOTs means 30 seconds of no Dark Intent stacks for your Warlock. If your relationship with your Warlock is strained already, it may be best not to piss him off .

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by New View Post
    Thank you for sharing your tests with me. A very bizarre take on opening I must say. I will have to give it a try some time. Also be wary though, 30 seconds of no DOTs means 30 seconds of no Dark Intent stacks for your Warlock. If your relationship with your Warlock is strained already, it may be best not to piss him off .
    What the warlock doesn't know doesn't hurt them

    Haha yea it was something I came up with at the last min, it was derived of a 3 MSP 1MB opening, I wanted to MSP 1x then MF2x MSP2X then MB but you lose your stacks for an instant MB.

    My favorite rotation to open up with though is SWP/DP as I run in then VT, MF 2x MB then refresh my dots. Yeah you wont have 5 stacks on your VT/DP but having your dots rolling early seems to make up for the fact. and to be honest once our rotation is going it's not going to make a bit of difference in the long run.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    What the warlock doesn't know doesn't hurt them
    Actually I have been campaigning in the Warlock forums about who should have the top priority of the Dark Intent buff. The usual argument right now is that other classes can provide near 100% up time on the buff right now due to their class mechanics (guarantee crits and whatnot). For us to get close to those numbers, we need to get ~24% Crit. The general idea I keep putting across is that the Raid > Yourself. Meaning that at the moment, a Warlock may lose a little DPS by buffing the Shadow Priest and not a Hunter, but the overall raid DPS will be much higher.

    I think in this case, by showing the Warlocks that we're sympathetic to their DPS as well, it will help create a circular understanding and the idea of Raid > Yourself will reinforce itself. The Dark Intent buff is incredibly important to our maximum DPS potential, and as such, we should always be wary of how our play style affects the Warlocks.

    ---------- Post added 2010-12-27 at 06:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    My favorite rotation to open up with though is SWP/DP as I run in then VT, MF 2x MB then refresh my dots. Yeah you wont have 5 stacks on your VT/DP but having your dots rolling early seems to make up for the fact. and to be honest once our rotation is going it's not going to make a bit of difference in the long run.
    This is what most of the discussion in this thread has been regarding. Honestly, I agree with you and it is the same thing I do. Except I usually wait for when the DOTs need to be recast after their duration, and not right after I receive Empowered Shadows.
    Last edited by New; 2010-12-27 at 06:23 PM.

  8. #48
    quoting elitist jerks:

    How much hit rating do I need?
    446 or 17%. (edit: 420 or 16% if you're Draenei) Remember, there's no more Misery and no more hit debuffs on mobs. Also remember that you convert spirit to hit via the Twisted Faith talent, but only from gear and buffs, not from your base spirit pool -- i..e I have 297 hit rating from gear, and I get 168 spirit from gear, which converts into 168 more hit rating for a total of 465.
    quoting this thread:
    Hit Cap = 1742 hit/spirit (1639 for Draenei) for the 17% hit cap
    well?

  9. #49
    You're comparing 4.0 data at 80 to actual cataclysm at 85?
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowtux View Post
    quoting elitist jerks:
    well?
    Combat rating @85 for 1% hit = 102.446
    1742/102.446 = 17.0040802% chance to hit
    Hit cap = 17%

    17.0040802 - 17 = .0040802

    NPV is positive. Accept the project.
    Last edited by New; 2010-12-30 at 05:18 PM.

  11. #51
    It amazes me how many people miss understand or believe that everything EJ says is law. If EJ posted the best healing spec was shadow you would have a team of morons doing it and defending in forums how its the best healing spec of all.

    I really hope Bowtux was trolling

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    It amazes me how many people miss understand or believe that everything EJ says is law. If EJ posted the best healing spec was shadow you would have a team of morons doing it and defending in forums how its the best healing spec of all.

    I really hope Bowtux was trolling
    EJ is really good at the min/max thing which is information that's good to know. Reducing the game to a spreadsheet isn't my cup of tea but I'm happy that someone else is doing it. I have enough spreadsheets in my life already and don't need more of them to support one of the things I do to relax.

    That said, I don't know how practical it really is with real-world players and I think Cataclysm has broken their calculators somewhat. RNG, situational spells, 'stop what you're doing and please cc that thing over there' will do that.

    It would be nice if people would do more thinking for themselves and their own practical theorycrafting based on experience. The conversations would be more interesting.

    The most toxic thing about it, isn't the theorycrafting itself. It's what you implied. People see some number and that becomes the class expectation regardless of the situation. In one way, it's a more complicated form of the same thing that Gearscore represents in that it doesn't (and can't) take into account things like player ability to be situationally aware, improvise when things go wrong as they will in any group situation, and simple instinct.

    BTW, I enjoy your posts and every time you talk about running around in circles, I get this vision of Palpatine as a WoW player looking like a geek running around.

    Best regards to all for the holidays.

  13. #53
    Tossed up as a sticky for now. Will likely add to the "Important Threads" listing in the near future instead. -- Kel
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  14. #54
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    I submitted this guide for the contest and wound up winning 19th place, so I feel you guys are a part of this honor as well. I want to thank everyone for reading this guide and contributing to the discussions thereafter. Your thoughts and ideas have helped me revise my guide to be more informative and have helped me gain a better understanding of my class.

    Keep on rockin' in the free world.

  15. #55
    This is absolute amazing! You put so much hard work into this and the quality and detail of this guide is truly outstanding.
    Great job and thank you!
    "Is it possible to live without comparison of any kind, never translating yourself in terms of comparison with another or with some idea or with some hero or with some example? Because when you are comparing, when you are measuring yourself with what should be or what has been, you are not seeing what is ..." by Jiddu K., Philosopher

  16. #56
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    EJ doesn't have a very good shadowpriest guide atm, their holy and disc is very nicely layed out and planned. Props to them.

    *Shadowfiend now does a lot of damage, its worth popping on CD
    *SWD actually can do some decent damage, but only you can gauge when its best to pop it. I typically start using it occasionally on long fights around 45% mana just to get something between archangel and SF CDs.
    *Our dots scale when something on the TARGET increases our dot damage not ourselves (/sadface). We still have to recast dots when BL is popped. (/sadface part 2)
    *Mindflay is now more of a filler spell. Cast it when nothing else is availble to cast when doing a dot rotation.

    <Looking forward to our AoE being increase in the next patch>
    Last edited by Kiry; 2010-12-31 at 05:17 PM.

  17. #57
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    Critical thinking is something that is beneficial in everything you do in life. The ability to critically analyze information provided to you, search for fallacies, and compare to alternatives will result in a well-rounded understanding of any topic. In the case of Elitist Jerks, they provide excellent information that has been the basis for much of the study revolving around not only Shadow Priests, but World of Warcraft itself. While Elitist Jerks is an amazing website, you should still always look at what you're reading, ask if it makes sense, then try to verify it yourself.

    My advice is read everything you can get your hands on and draw inferences from them. Parts of my guide are based off of hard work from people on both Elitist Jerks and Shadowpriest.com. If you see something that differs from site-to-site or poster-to-poster, try to figure out why a rift exists and figure out your take on it.

    I have learned more from the test dummy than any forum

  18. #58
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by New View Post
    Critical thinking is something that is beneficial in everything you do in life. The ability to critically analyze information provided to you, search for fallacies, and compare to alternatives will result in a well-rounded understanding of any topic. In the case of Elitist Jerks, they provide excellent information that has been the basis for much of the study revolving around not only Shadow Priests, but World of Warcraft itself. While Elitist Jerks is an amazing website, you should still always look at what you're reading, ask if it makes sense, then try to verify it yourself.

    My advice is read everything you can get your hands on and draw inferences from them. Parts of my guide are based off of hard work from people on both Elitist Jerks and Shadowpriest.com. If you see something that differs from site-to-site or poster-to-poster, try to figure out why a rift exists and figure out your take on it.

    I have learned more from the test dummy than any forum
    First of all, congratulations on your well-deserved thread ascension <smile>.

    Secondly, pretty much this. Spreadsheets and math will never capture things like personal play style and muscle memory so working on the test dummies--practical theorycrafting--is probably the most important thing one can do to improve one's game. There's no substitute for it.

  19. #59
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    That is true. The understanding of the game at a math level in invaluable as it provides a base for theorizing everything. A prime example is the case of trinkets and their procs. If you have an on-use trinket and it has been calculated to be your BIS trinket, this is usually modeled in simcraft or is figured out by hand. As with all numbers, they come with assumptions. If you're an elite player, a trinket like Heroic Heart of Ignacious is going to be your BIS as you will maximize the on-use effect. However, if you just can't get the same benefit either by skill or luck, some of the more passive trinkets may be favorable.

    Its all about knowing what is the supposed best thing to do and why it the best. From there you can start to tweak things for yourself and maximize your DPS versus what is the supposed best way of doing things. What I have written in my original post provides a lot of information for people take and make it work for themselves. I'm happy not everyone has taken what I have said verbatim. There have been a lot of people questioning what I said and I have attempted to defend and explain my position. I couldn't be happier with the result .

  20. #60

    Improved Minbd Blast vs Silence= any dps lose?

    Just doing some respecing of my shadow spec cuz i had 2 points in Improved PW:S while leveling for some reason.

    From what i found in 5 man instances so far is that i lack some ranged cc like silence. And to my surprise i discovered that Improved Mind Blast needs 3 points and that I don't always use it when its of CD. Is it realy big dps boost having MB on 1,5 sec shorter CD with 10% MS effect? Or can i affor it and pick up silence and short fear CD?

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