DK Frost PvP

[Roose]

Hi folks, I recently swapped to my DK during the transition from wrath to cata. I had intended to only raid with it, but I have finally decided to stick with one toon for pve and pvp. Obviously DKs are in a different spot than they were 2 years ago and I am the last of my friends with one(main reason I am now playing one). The once great DKs of the past really can't seem to help me out with today's DK.

I have seen several different builds with major differences. The ones that stood out were the obliterate-less ones and the deep unholy. I can understand the mechanics of an obliterate free build, but is it really worth it? Obliterate is pretty much why I love my DK. Do you just rely on FS for KM, necro, BS, and HB?

What is the point, if any, of going down the unholy tree? I could care less about my dots. What is up w/ spell pen?

I was tinkering around and made this build so that I could keep Ob in my setup. I have fully revamped my macros and bindings for pvp and really just need a few DK clarifications on stuff I may be unclear on.

This is what I used - http://www.wowhead.com/talent#jbhZMIRrfuRdczb . I will hold off defending my choices until I hear what folks have to say.

[TheMooch]

Bear with me as I am typing this from my droidx.

Ok first 195 spell pen is REQUIRED. If a buffed target is going to resist strange, diseases, dgrips and hb you are useless. Second going oblitless is just silly. Currently my km proc oblit hits a resil target for 25-35k.
DW is a nono, too many talent points wasted and less control over your burst. Subspec blood for HOD or unholy for RI. Bads waste GCDS cleansing is hilarious and you canrail the sh*t out of some holypal who iscleanse slammin with free hbs.

[Roose]

Cool. Thanks for response. I knew I needed spell pen for something, but I have never needed it before on any toons. Makes since as to why so many DGs are resisted

I too thought a non-Obliterate build was stupid, but I saw several.

I guess I can try 2H, but I do not see the lack of control over burst. Enchant? HoD seems great for arena. I guess I underestimated how many procs I would get off of RI.

Plenty to learn I guess. Any other tips appreciated. I am a BG player for the vast majority if that helps.

[Deamiel]

Actually he was telling you it's stupid not to use Obliterate. It crits for over 25k+ when Killing Machine is procced.

For PVP you generally want to be using a Two Hander as it hits harder for less loss of damage when you are not glued to the target.

[Velhartt]

I was wondering about this also. I wanted to know if there was a good and up to date guide on PvP Frost. I am pretty sure using my PvE Frost spec won't cut it. :P

[TheMooch]

Yes use oblit. Ri subspec for bgs. People always cleanse ff which let's you get stupid. Blood HOD subspec for arena. Ill type more in detail when I get home in a few hours.

[Roose]

Actually he was telling you it's stupid not to use Obliterate. It crits for over 25k+ when Killing Machine is procced.

For PVP you generally want to be using a Two Hander as it hits harder for less loss of damage when you are not glued to the target.

Ya, my bad. Typo. I totally did not agree w/ non-OB builds. Just curious because I saw several on different sites.

I still do not fully understand the use of 2Her. My attacks hit harder with DW than 2H. How does this change for pvp? Does the 2Her just work better b/c your supposed to be in Unholy and that is the preferred presence for 2H frost?

I also find myself close to RP cap already DWing. It seems that if I were getting even more RP from MotFW I would not be able to use it fast enough.

[TheMooch]

k, and awaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy we go:

Do not DW, the end. You're using 6 talent points to put out more or less the same damage provided the target sits there and eats melee? Not going to happen against a good player. Your attacks also do not hit harder as DW then a 2H. It is just impossible. The top end damage on a 2H>DW weapon. Again this goes back to controlled burst. You see your swing timer, get a decent 6k white attack, you have km loaded already let oblit fly on the little priest and he eats 30k. So within .5 seconds you did 36k. You also gain more talent points to spread around, as you have to literally waste 6 on a DW build and lose some utility.

Spec #1 - Better for arena, pretty self explanatory. Frost everything you have minus rime and the DW stuff. Get 2/2 unholy command in unholy, 3/3 blade barrier, and 3/3 bladed armor and then 2/2 hand of doom. I would post it but this site is super cool and won't let me.

Spec #2 - Better for BGs. It's absolutely ridiculous how many people spam cleanse on people, and then I hit HB, and they hit cleanse, Hb, cleanse, HB, cleanse, HB, suddenly they are getting railed and need to heal, blablablabla. It's terrific. It's a damned if you do damned if you don't as chillblains provides a constant snare. This is useless in higher up arena however as good players will never waste a GCD cleansing our diseases.

Anyway, 3/3 bladed armor, same frost talents, then 2/2 unholy command, 3/3 epidemic, 2/2 RI.

---------- Post added 2010-12-29 at 12:14 AM ----------

Oh yeah, you also need runic power mastery, just saw that. So drop, Threat of Thass, Nerves of Cold Steel and Rime.

[Love Hate Love]

You do understand that the DW talents make it so you hit with both weapons? Right? You do 100% of the damage on the main hand + 50% of the off hand, and assuming weapons of equal ilvl to the 2her, the strikes WILL hit harder. But needless to say 2H probably is better for PVP.

[TheMooch]

You do understand that the DW talents make it so you hit with both weapons? Right? You do 100% of the damage on the main hand + 50% of the off hand, and assuming weapons of equal ilvl to the 2her, the strikes WILL hit harder. But needless to say 2H probably is better for PVP.

Yeah, and it still stinks. 6 talent points, the end. DPS DW is superior, PVP it is not. The oblit crits still do not hit harder, test it yourself. And again, it is not just about the damage. It is about controlled burst, and utility.

[Xahz]

Yeah, and it still stinks. 6 talent points, the end. DPS DW is superior, PVP it is not. The oblit crits still do not hit harder, test it yourself. And again, it is not just about the damage. It is about controlled burst, and utility.

Yes, they do. DW mathematically has harder hitting strikes than 2H.

The talent points issue is another argument. The 3 TALENT POINTS in NoCS gives you 3% extra hit, which allows you to reforge all your excess hit into haste. By the way, its 3 points you "lose", not 6. The points in ToT either go there or they go into MoFW. Besides, where else would you put those points? Rime? OaPH? None of the optional talents are that outstanding. You basically spend 3 extra talent points for more choice with secondary stats and harder hitting strikes, whats the problem?

DW is more burst. Your OB hits harder and your FS hits harder. THIS IS IRREFUTABLE, EMPIRICAL FACT; addition and multiplication, not hard. DW gives you a harder hitting FS, while 2H gives you more FS. DW, if anything, has more controlled burst due to the fact that you can do more damage in a shorter timespan (Strang+PoF ERW combo, with essentially unlimited resources its all about damage) than 2H.

As for more utility, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. 3 extra talent points does not constitute more utility. There are very good arguments for both DW and 2H, but you can't just blatantly lie. Honestly the best one I've heard so far is that 2H is 3400 points while DW is 2x2450 points

[GuyWithFace]

I actually prefer my Oblit-less spec. Why? Necrotic Strike, plain and simple. That, and your HBs don't feel wasted when your target is OoR.

Also, DW for me, since I've had 359 1Hs since week 1.

Another thing: DW Oblit-less specs damage is about 80% un-mitigatable, due to it being nearly ALL Frost damage. The damage I put out is pretty insane, or so I've been told. And the 'Damage' counter in BGs and Arenas seem to prove the same point.

[Deleted]

The ones saying going without obliterate is stupid have no clue.. it really depends on if you are stacking haste or mastery.. if you stack enough mastery, your frost trike will get up to around the same amount of crit as your obliterate! not only that, but it ignores armor completely, always doing full dmg (if you are spen capped that is)... Beside that, if you go frost strike > obli, you can keep smacking necrotic strikes in the head of your oponent...

However! i myself are stacking haste, and going for obliterate atleast till people get more resilience.. but for now i can smack people with low resilience for 30k and basicly take a cloth/leather healer down without even cc'ing or silencing... both speccs can work, and are great.. Also have in mind that for now, necrotic strike doesnt scale with resilience (making the frost strike + necrotic build REALLY strong)... It will be nerfed in a future patch tho.

I hope this was helpfull

---------- Post added 2010-12-29 at 06:37 AM ----------

Beside that ... howling blast with mastery stacking can easily crit 10-15k aswell... In that specc you might want to go for rime aswell tho

---------- Post added 2010-12-29 at 06:39 AM ----------

I actually prefer my Oblit-less spec. Why? Necrotic Strike, plain and simple. That, and your HBs don't feel wasted when your target is OoR.

Also, DW for me, since I've had 359 1Hs since week 1.

Another thing: DW Oblit-less specs damage is about 80% un-mitigatable, due to it being nearly ALL Frost damage. The damage I put out is pretty insane, or so I've been told. And the 'Damage' counter in BGs and Arenas seem to prove the same point.

DK's are really insane dmg, however.. obliterate specc is actually better for duelwield, due to the fact that its more burst, becaue obli is wep dmg scaling and hits with both wep, while necrotic strike only hit with your main hand... My opinion tho

[TheMooch]

"Yes, they do. DW mathematically has harder hitting strikes than 2H. "

No, they dont. DW hits more often then 2H which equates to about a 10% increase in dps(Might want to read EJ a bit to see the math). This is a pvp discussion, not a ?? boss stabbing discussion. No good player is going to stand still and let you mash keys. 2H however hits harder, DQ just hits more often in a shorter amount of time which equates to more damage. As another posted pointed out, you are standing around less with 2H then DW.

"The talent points issue is another argument. The 3 TALENT POINTS in NoCS gives you 3% extra hit, which allows you to reforge all your excess hit into haste. By the way, its 3 points you "lose", not 6. The points in ToT either go there or they go into MoFW. Besides, where else would you put those points? Rime? OaPH? None of the optional talents are that outstanding. You basically spend 3 extra talent points for more choice with secondary stats and harder hitting strikes, whats the problem?"

No one said to take Rime, read my original posts. And yes, you spend 6 talent points and you have to give up other options. This is just fact, you can't pull the other 6 points out of your ass and place them to make up for the difference. You lose 6 talent points that could be placed in something better served for pvp. And huh regarding hit? The hitcap for DW is 8% for pvp, soooo yes you blow 3 , THREE talent points to make up for that 3%? Let me break it down to you: 2H = 5% hit cap, DW = 8%. By taking 3/3 in NOCS you bring it back down to 5%. You can't then reforge your excess hit into haste as you are going to just trying to make that hit cap as it is. How many pvp items give hit currently for plate. 2? 3? Not enough to give you so much hit that you are reforging everything into haste. On top of this, you don't reforge haste for frost. See AJ.

"DW is more burst. Your OB hits harder and your FS hits harder. THIS IS IRREFUTABLE, EMPIRICAL FACT; addition and multiplication, not hard. DW gives you a harder hitting FS, while 2H gives you more FS. DW, if anything, has more controlled burst due to the fact that you can do more damage in a shorter timespan (Strang+PoF ERW combo, with essentially unlimited resources its all about damage) than 2H."

You are confused. Burst and just hitting something fast over and over again is a big difference. Goes back to the first point, 2H hits harder, DW hits more OFTEN. Big difference. Again, this is a pvp discussion, not pve. This is why people don't socket those trash +54 crit 2% increased crit metas 90% of the time. There are other metas with more UTILITY. Well hell, I don't know maybe you do.

"As for more utility, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. 3 extra talent points does not constitute more utility. There are very good arguments for both DW and 2H, but you can't just blatantly lie. Honestly the best one I've heard so far is that 2H is 3400 points while DW is 2x2450 points[/QUOTE]"

Again, and I feel like this is a broken record at this point. If you are placing in 6 extra points to go with a DW build, you sacrifice something else. I'll take a page from your book, THIS IS IRREFUTABLE, EMPIRICAL FACT; addition and multiplication, not hard.

I would love to see your ideal DW spec as I need a good laugh. I would also encourage you to goto AJ, look at all the top DKS. Hell find, ONE 2200+ rated DK who will post on AJ that DW(and actually mean it, not some buddy of yours) is the way to go and I will pay for your subscription through 2011.

---------- Post added 2010-12-30 at 06:23 PM ----------

"The ones saying going without obliterate is stupid have no clue.. it really depends on if you are stacking haste or mastery.. if you stack enough mastery, your frost trike will get up to around the same amount of crit as your obliterate! not only that, but it ignores armor completely, always doing full dmg (if you are spen capped that is)... Beside that, if you go frost strike > obli, you can keep smacking necrotic strikes in the head of your oponent... "

This is wrong. Frost strike has not been straight frost damage since... Season 6? 7? It is a base weapon damage + X as frost damage. You do not stack haste as a frost DK, haste is for unholy. This is still actually up for debate but being that you have a viable ranged nuke in HB, it makes sense to stack mastery. NS is getting nerfed, end. What you going to do after you drop an HC and have no runic power but all runes up? hit FS? Or Oblit? And NS does not exactly hit hard lets all be serious here. It is 100% weapon damage. Oblit is 232% weapon damage when spec'd with another 12.5% for each disease. No one is saying to NOT use NS, but if you are gibbing people using only NS and FS, well. I want to come to your battle-group.

[rockallnite]

Idk, I've been testing for a few weeks, getting weapon upgrades and such, and I've been comparing the dmg of an Oblit and a FS from both DW and 2H Frost.
It seems to me that the combined dmg from Threat of Thassarian of both weapons hitting is actually higher than just the 2H hitting with an Oblit, and same goes for FS.
I don't exactly understand how 2H is more "controlled" burst, but I'll be sticking to my DW spec, and topping just about every BG chart i go into. Thanks.

[moarpheus]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...dalee/advanced

What i have going is really working for me i rarely ever lose

[TheMooch]

Idk, I've been testing for a few weeks, getting weapon upgrades and such, and I've been comparing the dmg of an Oblit and a FS from both DW and 2H Frost.
It seems to me that the combined dmg from Threat of Thassarian of both weapons hitting is actually higher than just the 2H hitting with an Oblit, and same goes for FS.
I don't exactly understand how 2H is more "controlled" burst, but I'll be sticking to my DW spec, and topping just about every BG chart i go into. Thanks.

Whoopdy doo, this is the problem with mmo champion. Who CARES if you "top the charts." I can top the charts as a mage just running around casting blizzard on clumps of people. Step into an arena, get past 1200, and see how well DW does. Thanks.

[Tyrean]

One piece of utility that has not been discussed for dw is that you can gave swordbreaking in your OH and make those 10 second disarms only 5 seconds. Makes rogues, warriors, spriets, hunters, etc easier.

Also, when I a, able to stick on a target the constant pressure of the dw melee damage is nice for setting up burst. The extra 3 talent points are nice, but the two specs look remarkably similar. I think those 3 points are just personal preference because they are not that large of a boost. So 3% hit is just 3% less I have to gear for and dw lets me cut in half the single thing that controls my damage the most, disarms.

[Admuntour]

For anyone wondering why.
Even though DW does more sustained DPS and its optimal for PVE, in a PVP environment with CC, slows and peels the damage of DW will drop, also DW is too sustained and not bursty enough. 2h on the other hand can provide some large chunks of damage suddenly, which makes it much more optimal for PVP.

As for NS vs Oblit and FS-NS nuke.

Frost Strike deals only 110% weapon damage+ something as frost damage. Obliterate deals 160% weapon damage+ 45% from talents +20% from glyph +12.5% for each disease on the target resulting in a staggering 348%. Even accounting damage reduction via armor it would take tons of mastery to bring frost strike to a level where it will deal more damage then Obliterate. You would probably need 50 mastery to get 100% more frost damage and thus make a frost strike stronger then Oblit because it can bypass armor. However I find it impossible or highly improbable to get 50 mastery in PVP gear, even in end season Cata PVP gear fully enchanted and gemmed for mastery.

So with all that said and done, its probably better and will probably remain better to pressure a target using Obliterate, stock up on runic power, and then switch to necrotic strike while still applying pressure with frost strikes.

[Needonboots]

Oh my god this thread hurts. I'll only bother addressing one point.


Obliterate vs. Necro Strike + Howling Blast

If your opponent has resilience (until the hotfix), Necro Strike is flat out better, because the absorption isn't mitigated by Resilience. In a decent arena match against a team who aren't drooling imbeciles, Necro Strike will give you more overall ability than just mindlessly Obliterating.

HOWEVER there is always time for burst, and Obliterate IS burstier, and if you're trying to burst down the last of someone's health while a healer is CCd or something, Obliterate is the go to strike. There's no "ONLY ONE OR THE OTHER RAWRAWRAWR". You should use both options at the appropriate moments. Necro Strike is far better for sustained pressure (don't forget the cast time reduction which IS extremely significant), meaning your F rune would then be forced into the HB.

But for god's sake it's not a single choice. Good players use them at the situationally correct times, bad players argue about which one is the ONLY one you should touch.