EJ totally wrong on H. Pally stat priority?

[Paladinwtf]

Removed for being stupid.

[Firecrest]

because spirit & mastery are so lackluster.

Spirit is lackluster? I think you need to revisit your stat prio.

[ipoststuff]

I dont think theorycrafting stats for healing is a good idea. Healing is completely different from dps.

I mean what if im not as good as conserving my mana as the theorycrafter. Would haste be the best stat while i have a risk to go oom. Or DPSers in my raid take aoe damage that could be avoided. So i need better aoe heals(dunno which stat give better aoe healz lol). Or my tank is undergeared. Then ill need better MT healing stats like mastery. I dont know much about healing (shortly after BC release specced prot and never healed again). But i dont think there exist a simple inequality for every gear/raid setup/player like statA>statB

[Admuntour]

My personal opinion is that. For healing you must first get enough spirit to feel comfortable, not too much that you nerf your other stats, but enough to feel that you can continue to cast medium heals and regen mana, or cast heavy heals and regen during periods of little to no damage.
Secondly you probably should also balance your other stats.

I think going full out on haste is a bit overkill. Back in the healing environment of wrath, when someone was real danger of dying if he wasn't topped in the fastest amount of time possible, haste was indeed king along with SP because you could quickly patch up a lot of people.
Now a days damage is much more predictable, there are periods of high, medium and low damage, and you need to pick the spell for the situation. In my opinion, specifically as a paladin healer, all stats help. Crit means you get more healing, it means you could top someone in one single crit instead of having to use mana on two Holy lights. More mastery means that, your heals can contribute to bonus survivability by also shielding someone.

One more thing I forgot to mention. While other healers have heals over time, that benefit a lot from haste because it adds extra ticks, paladins have only direct heals, so haste is probably even less valuable for them.
In my opinion you are doing it well, try and keep a nice balance of all stats. Some haste so you can react to a situation, crit to get some bonus healing and conserve mana, and mastery to make those large heal crits even more useful via shields.

[solf]

Spirit is lackluster? I think you need to revisit your stat prio.

Always against the mainstream cruci! Btw good to see that you're still around.

On topic I feel very comfortable sitting on my 2.4k combat regen. Especially when we're bringing the resto shaman a long. I don't consider mana a problem but maybe the 10m raids are undertuned or maybe it's because we're 3 healing most content. At the moment I'm picking up haste/spi gear and reforge to whatever of those stats the item is missing. This is working out just well, pro tip a well timed Potion of Concentration + dp saves the day.

On a sidenote what's up with the mail gear? Isn't the 5% int worth it?

[P4R45171K]

Don't listen to Elitist jerks, ever, you need to find a way that works for you, just because they have a 33.3 repeating success rate on having high DPS/HPS/TPS Does not mean it's right for you.

[Nillo]

1) Secondly you probably should also balance your other stats.

2) I think going full out on haste is a bit overkill.
3) Back in the healing environment of wrath, when someone was real danger of dying if he wasn't topped in the fastest amount of time possible, haste was indeed king along with SP because you could quickly patch up a lot of people.
4) In my opinion, specifically as a paladin healer, all stats help.
5) Crit means you get more healing, it means you could top someone in one single crit instead of having to use mana on two Holy lights.
6) More mastery means that, your heals can contribute to bonus survivability by also shielding someone.

7) One more thing I forgot to mention. While other healers have heals over time, that benefit a lot from haste because it adds extra ticks, paladins have only direct heals, so haste is probably even less valuable for them.
8) In my opinion you are doing it well, try and keep a nice balance of all stats. Some haste so you can react to a situation, crit to get some bonus healing and conserve mana, and mastery to make those large heal crits even more useful via shields.

1) No you don't the only thing you'll balance is Regen vs Throughput.
2) it's not
3) Still applies in Cataclysm even if only to a lesser extend. (on bosses like Chimaeron it's critical)
4) They do for all classes - which still doesn't mean they're even close in effectivity.
5) And that's where your thinking is completely wrong: 1 crit with 50% bonus heal is not going to top anyone off on the other hand getting another heal off for 100% more heal is more likely to save someone's ass.You also need around 50% more crit rating than haste for 1% of each. Also casting holy lights is not what's making you run out of mana it's the DL and FoL you need to cast because your throughput is gimped by going for crit over haste.
6) You're looking at it from the wrong direction.... The theoretical bonus healing from the shield only takes effect if the target actually takes damage before it runs out or gets overwritten. And no you're not going to overheal someone just to give him some insignificant shield.

7) We do and it's called Holy Radiance, which is our awesome aoe heal.
8) This:

It's a matter of initial rules being established. Believe me, I'd love nothing more than to ban people for posting shit like "I just reforged and gemmed all my ret gear to mastery, I do soooo much damage!", but that's against the rules for mods.

[Cactrot]

One more thing I forgot to mention. While other healers have heals over time, that benefit a lot from haste because it adds extra ticks, paladins have only direct heals, so haste is probably even less valuable for them.

Other healers have HoTs which haste only affects if it gives enough benefit to add a full new tick. Paladins have direct heals, which always benefit from haste. You think having haste affect some of the heals LESS OFTEN makes it MORE BENEFICIAL? No. It affects more of paladins heals and affects them more often. Haste is not more effective for a hot than for a direct heal.

[Deleted]

For healing you must first get enough spirit to feel comfortable

Paladins, like other healing classes, do not reply soley on spirit in order to regen mana. Around 2.5k in combat regen is plently enough.

Secondly you probably should also balance your other stats.

No. The stats we use are Intellect, Spirit and Haste. Crit and Mastery are both very weak, and you will have whatever is left over after reforging as much as possible to haste.

I think going full out on haste is a bit overkill. Back in the healing environment of wrath, when someone was real danger of dying if he wasn't topped in the fastest amount of time possible, haste was indeed king along with SP because you could quickly patch up a lot of people.
Now a days damage is much more predictable, there are periods of high, medium and low damage, and you need to pick the spell for the situation

You are unfortunatly not understanding what haste actually does for you. You stack haste because it provides more throughput. It has absolutly NOTHING to do with topping somebody off as fast as possible.

In my opinion, specifically as a paladin healer, all stats help. Crit means you get more healing, it means you could top someone in one single crit instead of having to use mana on two Holy lights. More mastery means that, your heals can contribute to bonus survivability by also shielding someone.

This does not change from the fact that they are both much weaker than haste and shouldn't even be considered at the level you are. A crit does not do double healing, it does 150% healing.

One more thing I forgot to mention. While other healers have heals over time, that benefit a lot from haste because it adds extra ticks, paladins have only direct heals, so haste is probably even less valuable for them.

Holy Radiance gains extra ticks. However again you fail to understand what haste actually does for a pally.

In my opinion you are doing it well, try and keep a nice balance of all stats. Some haste so you can react to a situation, crit to get some bonus healing and conserve mana, and mastery to make those large heal crits even more useful via shields.

Again, you fail to see what haste does and you seem to have it stuck into your head that haste is to do with reacting faster? Crit and Mastery are bad.

I honestly can't find anything correct with the post you have made. This isn't me trolling or being rude, but i honestly think you need to do a bit more research and its clear you don't understand how a holy paladin, or any healer for that matter, actually works.

[zealous]

EJ should be respected for their moderation rules alone, it's a forum that is dedicated to information and where trolls and flamers aren't tolerated. The smaller size and less commercial direction of the forum and the strict rules actually allow the mods to do their job, as well as the fact the mods actually care about the cleanness of their forum.

Beyond that - it never ceases to surprise me how thankless the majority of people are. EJ is a site/group of people that do what 99.9999999999% of us are not willing to do. They sit down each patch and crunch the numbers so we can base our gearing on something other than socket bonuses and outdated rumors.

They WORK on it, which surmises the probability of mistakes, as they are human. Most of us do nothing, so I don't think we have any moral right to bash on them even if they are wrong on something (which they aren't most of the time).

Sadly, most people are so lazy/dumb that they take all EJ info as combat order and not a basis for thought, and if they don't find something to their liking, they start whining despite the fact that they have no better information.

Current holy paladin stat weights posted on EJ are correct as far as I know, at least according to 3 holy paladin raiders on my server who are in serious raiding guilds.

What has to be taken into account though - as Cataclysm gearing is considerably slower, stat priorities shift a bit depending on your gear level. Spirit devalues in later ilvls of gear and haste pulls through a bit until the next progression reset patch. The stat priority still persists in general though.

Crit does little for hpalas as heal crits have x1.5 modifier and you need loads of rating to achiev any respectable percentage. Mastery is about the same value as it is for shamans - pretty low sadly.

[drtrann]

while i respect EJ and all they do, i do notice that there always seems to be some horribl(ey...ie..ee?) wrong assumptions when it comes to certain classes and that many specs are simply neglected for entire expansion (try looking up enhance shamans between bc and wotlk) and right now warriors seem to have no theorycrafting going on at all. personally i have always taken EJ's advise with a grain of salt and always relied on my own calculations to figure out how it works.. but im kinda disappointed that they would release an updated RAWR that is totally off base for warriors (telling me to get spirit mastery trinkets just for the master or wear half my 277 gear coz its got expertise on it (think their weighting on expertise is like 90 and str is like 5) and that kinda grinds my gears.

right now im just disregarding them until i start to see numbers that make sense

[Deleted]

If you ask me, just take what stat you thinks best for your style of play. I've played Holy since september 05 when i started the game (yeah i even leveled as holy, my god i was such a noob at 15 years old).

Right now im actually taking spirit>crit>haste>mastery. It may just be the other guildies healing bad, but keeping mana up is an issue now so for me, spirits decent for keeping mana regen. The reason ive took crit is just for the Bonus healing.. the crits usually mean you dont have to waste more mana on another spell, thus using less mana.

Personally, i dont think fights are that much about massive healing output now, theyre all steadyish healing output fights that are lasting long and demanding you to not go oom while keeping all alive. Like Blizz said, its all about using your spells and abilities wisely now. Dont get me wrong haste is still an important stat but i could easily pull 20k HPS (i'd go oom pretty quick) whenever its needed without haste. Usually tho with my current setup i always top the meters in 10 & 25 mans at about 11k HPS, depending on the fight.

[zealous]

Personally, i dont think fights are that much about massive healing output now, theyre all steadyish healing output fights that are lasting long and demanding you to not go oom while keeping all alive.

Trying healing Blackout on Valiona with three healers 335-340ish ilvl. Now imagine they are 3 hpalas that think haste is crap.

Or healing the tank on Halfus with Nether Scion still alive.

Throughput is still very valuable, and there are lots of moments where it kicks in.

[RyanRetnolds]

Don't listen to Elitist jerks, ever, you need to find a way that works for you, just because they have a 33.3 repeating success rate on having high DPS/HPS/TPS Does not mean it's right for you.

Posts like this make you really value forums like Elitist Jerks, as nonsense like this would have been purged quickly.

You're personal opinion on stats doesn't mean shit, you're unique spec is shit (not directed at quoted person in particular). EJ does in-depth research and have a plethora of cutting-edge information. Are they always right? No, but they are about as close as anyone will be, seeing as how anyone interested in high-end raiding will show up there.

Crit is bad. Mastery is bad. They are "helpful" in the same way Strength on a Rogue item is "helpful". They will yield positibe results, but there are many, much better options to go with. Get to ~2500 mp5, then reforge Haste.

[abijax]

Crit is bad. Mastery is bad. They are "helpful" in the same way Strength on a Rogue item is "helpful". They will yield positibe results, but there are many, much better options to go with. Get to ~2500 mp5, then reforge Haste.

Great example of something that should be purged. Blindly throwing numbers and ultimate rules is as bad as it gets.
Haste has plateaus enforced by the HS/J cooldowns. If you can't squeeze another spell in, haste has minimal benefits and it's easily beaten by crit.
If the fight pushes you outside the HL comfort zone too much, haste is again not so good.
You have to consider that, whenever you aren't chain casting haste looses effectiveness. And that can be forced by a lot of events during a fight.
Also most of the time you have room to benefit from crit, it's not a constant spam to keep targets at 100% so fairly easy to react and adjust the heals you use.
So no, crit is definitely not a worthless stat.

[s8mpurye]

Also most of the time you have room to benefit from crit, it's not a constant spam to keep targets at 100% so fairly easy to react and adjust the heals you use.
So no, crit is definitely not a worthless stat.

A lot of the normal modes practically demand spam healing. P2-3 of nef are pretty much a spam fest, chimaeron is a spam fest. Heroic halfus is basically DL until OOM and hope the boss is dead before you are completely oom. Most fights have some mechanic that you have to stack up and spam as hard as you can for 10-30seconds every minute or so. While yes crit can help your healing, and yes it can save you mana by allowing a cheap heal to do the job of a non crit DL, haste is a guarantee. Unless you have 100% crit you can theoretically go an entire fight without a crit, making the stat a near worthless stat. In wrath the only reason crit retained any value was because of the mana it returned, with that being removed it completely devalued it.

[Nillo]

1) Great example of something that should be purged. Blindly throwing numbers and ultimate rules is as bad as it gets.
Haste has plateaus enforced by the HS/J cooldowns. If you can't squeeze another spell in, haste has minimal benefits and it's easily beaten by crit.
If the fight pushes you outside the HL comfort zone too much, haste is again not so good.
2) You have to consider that, whenever you aren't chain casting haste looses effectiveness. And that can be forced by a lot of events during a fight.
3) Also most of the time you have room to benefit from crit, it's not a constant spam to keep targets at 100% so fairly easy to react and adjust the heals you use.
4) So no, crit is definitely not a worthless stat.

1) Because having HS and Judgement on cooldown is the absolute highest priority ever and this turns haste from being at least twice as good as crit to being easily beaten? (Hint: You're not able to use Judgement on cooldown if you're actually healing)
2) I can't see any fight where I'm not chain casting and whenever I'm not I'm usually switching position and like having a faster heal once I'm able to.
3) What?
4) Noone said it's useless it's just way way way behind haste in both throughput and mana conservation.

[Theholypally]

If i remember reading this one thread correctly, i think it was on tankspot, there is no possible way for healers to reach the soft haste cap in cata, something like 4k+ haste rating with raid buffs. SO there is really no such thing as going overboard on haste because none of it will be overkill. Having haste + spirit on gear is going to be far more efficient then crit and mastery. Crit will come with gear anyway (Int=crit as well). Mastery is pretty much useless, although some gear will have mastery i just reforge it into either spirit or haste.

Int > spirit > haste > crit > mastery. Thats the priority, but while there is a general area of spirit you should be set with (2300-2500 combat regen rougly) there is no 'cap' on haste...so that should just be w.e you are comfortable with. 2k haste rating is something i think we will see most raiding holy paladins with which is, I believe, around 15% haste.

EDIT: taken directly from the guide http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...-Paladin-Guide

"As of Cataclysm, it takes 128.2 haste rating to equal 1% haste which means that, assuming you have Judgements of the Pure up at all times, you'll need 5256.2 haste rating to soft cap. With a Balance Druid, Elemental Shaman, or Shadow Priest in your group (or raid) you'll only need 4615.2 haste. Obviously, reaching the cap isn't possible with current gear, and Blizzard has suggested that they don't intend to make it possible at all."

This seems to be rather old, but i was mainly focusing on the Haste portion of the guide. If someone could confirm or deny the guide creators math that would be helfull as i dont really have the time currently to go through EJ and see if someone did their own holy paladin haste segment.

[Deleted]

so that should just be w.e you are comfortable with. 2k haste rating is something i think we will see most raiding holy paladins with which is, I believe, around 15% haste.

Yup, this is roughly what most will aim for. This will leave us at a constant 30% haste with Judgments of the pure and Speed of Light.

[Azshira]

I don't think with end game gear come Deathwing it would be still possible to get over 4k haste rating, think of those numbers and stat inflation. Blizzard made it very clear they did not want to repeat the same mistake in WOTLK with ilvl numbers going much higher than intended. So, unless you see gear without 400 haste rating approx on each piece it is indeed impossible.

I said this on EJ forums a few days ago that my value of stats is: int>spirit>haste>crit>mastery.

My reasoning behind this is because int is our most powerful stat and I shouldn't have to go in detail about it. Spirit grants us regen, basically. Haste will give an extra tick in HoR, allows us to attack faster with our weapon, which means faster mana regen with SoI (our seal of choice), can effectively lower HL/DL cast times to fit them in smoothly between a 'rotation' ie. Judge, Holy shock, x2 HL/DL, repeat, comfortably.

I'm at just approx 1578 (12.26%) solo pre-raid gear(not including talents and JoTP up) and my HL/DL's are at 2.15 seconds cast time, 1.98 seconds with JoTP, which is always up. For me this haste is perfect, as long as my HL/DLs are 2 seconds it fits comfortably in a 'rotation', however some fights I just have to Holy shock and word of glory/LoD and judge and that's my work done, it depends on the situation, but the 'rotation' I laid out is merely an example.

Crit is not reliable, that's why its lower on our list and we no longer get mana back from crits (Illumination), however, a crit heal can save you mana, a crit DL, could save you casting maybe 5 HLs or so, which is fact is more mana and a hell of a lot more time. It's downfall is it requires a huge amount to become reliable (which will never happen). It's not WOTLK where Paladins could walk around with maybe 40% un-buffed.

Lastly we have our newest feature, and that's mastery. Mastery creates a bubble neting a certain % of our last biggest heal, lasts 8 seconds and is refreshed by smaller heals but over-written by bigger. Why is mastery under-valued? Because the shield is tiny, 2k shield is not a big help vs a 50k hit from a boss, it has value definately, just not a strong one. And why else is it unvalued? The timer! The time of 8 seconds is useless on raid healing. People could get a heal from you and not receive another heal for a long time due to an aoe spell might only occur every 30 seconds or something like that, the bubble has long gone past it's sell by date. Furthermore, it does not grant a bubble with HoR usage which is our number 1 AoE heal to use on cooldown.

This is a long answer, but should clear up some issues.