Garrosh getting less credit than he deserves?

[Deleted]

Okay, with the "Thrall: Then and Now" thing poping up, I came to see how much people despise Garrosh, still seeing him as a warmongering ducebag, we met in Northrend.

Did anyone bother to check any non-ingame like wowpedia, or maybe read the "Heart of War" or "The Shattering", to see he's actually far from what he was back than?

I'm a Thrall supporter as much as the next guy, but I'm kinnda tired that people don't even bother seeing how Garrosh has developed since TBC/WRATH.

[Lugo Moll]

Even though he does some honorable stuff, he's still mostly portrayed as a bloodthirsty warmongerer. I mean, just listen to what he says when you click him in Org.

He's supposed to be a love-to-hate character. Metzen even said at Blizzcon that Garrosh was created as an anti-Thrall, taking over as Warchief to allow Thrall to develop as an über shaman, whilst bringing back some of the old warmongering horde spirit.

I think horde is more interesting when there's the conflict between bloodthirst and pacificm within it. You gotta admit that the new all-peacful orcs introduced in Warcraft III are pretty boring...

[Dreyks]

Yeah, right, if to look at lore, we can see, that before the tainted mannoroth's blood orcs where all the way "all-peacful", but wait! why d'you think the gaming timeline begins _after_ orcs have gone wild and actually became the Horde? Right, cause it's a WARcraft, and not PEACEcraft farmville or whatever.
The Horde must be like this - contradictory - battling inner demons, eager for bloodspilling, but the same time wise and mindfull.

Thrall was the brains of the horde, Garrosh is more like plain muscles, but this is the life, everything changes and the Horde must become alill'bit more cruel, though i personally favor Thrall alot more than Garrosh

[JustKidding]

Getting less credit that he deserves?! He already gets enough credit that he doesn't deserve!

The players fixed his mess in Nagrand because he was too busy being a whiny, emo bitch and the players (and Saurfang) fixed his mess in Northrend because he was too busy trying to prove his penis is not small compared to his father.

[BlartyBlart]

hes not a real person, you know.

[Deleted]

hes not a real person, you know.

your point?

[BlartyBlart]

your point?

youre a dork

[Deleted]

Even though he does some honorable stuff, he's still mostly portrayed as a bloodthirsty warmongerer. I mean, just listen to what he says when you click him in Org.

He's supposed to be a love-to-hate character. Metzen even said at Blizzcon that Garrosh was created as an anti-Thrall, taking over as Warchief to allow Thrall to develop as an über shaman, whilst bringing back some of the old warmongering horde spirit.

I think horde is more interesting when there's the conflict between bloodthirst and pacificm within it. You gotta admit that the new all-peacful orcs introduced in Warcraft III are pretty boring...

there's a big diferance with that Garosh does; Ashenvale for example, Night Elfs refused to give orce supplies they needed (diplomacy failed because of twilight hammers, making Hammul Runetotem thinking it was Alliance), he decides to take it by force; because the land in which his people live is a desert, which in turn, Night Elves refuse to give up even an inch of the land, which also causes other members of the alliance to get involved
roughly put, (if you read the Heart of War) Garrosh got tired of Thrall not doing $h17 about the problems regarding Durotar, like the lack of earth for farming, wood supply, Northwatch trying to make foothold into Horde territory, etc.
and yeah, the peace-orcs were becoming kinnda boring

[Deleted]

He orders his armies to kill all the night elves in ashenvale... ofcourse i love him! Despite being a human warlock, i love to see those filthy tree-hugging hippie night elves die a slow painfull death :3

[Wickedpissah]

youre a dork

Damn, Jshadow. You just got owned. He called you a DORK. You must be hurting so bad right now. Get some burn cream for this guy! Stat!

[BlartyBlart]

its how i roll, fellers. keepin it real.

[Deleted]

youre a dork

Good come back, hope u get banned

[Tyrill]

Okay, with the "Thrall: Then and Now" thing poping up, I came to see how much people despise Garrosh, still seeing him as a warmongering ducebag, we met in Northrend.

Did anyone bother to check any non-ingame like wowpedia, or maybe read the "Heart of War" or "The Shattering", to see he's actually far from what he was back than?

i was convinced he was a great leader after the letter he sent to Magthara after he discovered her treachery (story inside The Shattering)

[BlartyBlart]

Good come back, hope u get banned

that would be turrible

[Grimmer]

Here's the problem:

Yes, Garrosh has "improved" in the literal sense. But he's improved in the most jarring and unrealistic fashion possible. It almost feels like they made him pull a complete personality 180 to try and dampen the negative reaction towards him.

The fact that we originally had a leak from Boub that Cairne would be flat-out killed by Garrosh, but then it ended up that it was actually due to Magatha's poison screams "writing decision changed after the fact." It almost feels like they deliberately softened up much more harsh and dark plans for the character because the fan reaction was so negative, so this improved "honor" of Garrosh's just seems so completely inauthentic and contrived.

We don't really get the sense that Garrosh learned anything to lead in to this major character change. We just have "I learned from Saurfang, take my word for it." But even when you remove that, his actions in The Shattering and "Heart of War" are just wildly inconsistent from what we've seen previously.

For example: in the comic, Saurfang observed that Garrosh was already getting ready to usurp Thrall's rule before the Lich King ever attacked. He was very aggressive and rude towards Thrall all the time both before and during Wrath of the Lich King.

But then when you read "Heart of War," they try to play it up that Garrosh was just acting how he thought was best, and that he truthfully respects Thrall. Apparently the time he tried to fight him in a mak'gora was just to try and get him to act, but as I already said, they established previously that he wanted to take control all along and then they quickly dropped that plot point. After Nagrand, we NEVER see Garrosh treat Thrall with any respect. It almost feels like this respect was tacked on later solely to try and get more people to like him.

"Hey, people like Thrall. So if Garrosh likes Thrall, maybe people will like him!"

That's why Garrosh gets no credit, at least from me. He's a mess of a character. The continuity and consistency surrounding him is an unpleasant vortex of shit that can't be fixed. He upstages characters that have been in this franchise for 8+ years and they're all sucked into his black hole of nonsense.

Seriously. Vol'jin, Rexxar, Varok Saurfang, Baine, Garona...

These are characters who have had very little to no development or screen-time since several games back. Cataclysm could've been their time to shine and do some great things, get some character development, maybe go into a leadership role. Even characters who have screen time in Cataclysm like Baine or Vol'jin are shaped purely by how they interact with Garrosh - they don't stand on their own. After Vol'jin argues with Garrosh, he goes back to doing nothing while Garrosh flings people off cliffs and 12 year olds call him a BAMF in their ignorance.

But nope! We have to continue putting up with this obnoxious brown turd purely because Metzen can't let go of his big masturbation fantasy regarding Grom's sacrifice. We get it, Chris. Grom did some great stuff. But you gotta let that emotional punchline die already.

Which leads us to Cataclysm, in which he continues doing a bunch of stuff that screams "THE WRITERS WANT YOU TO LOVE ME." WHOA, I THREW A TOTAL JERK OFF A CLIFF. AREN'T I SO AWESOME? DON'T YOU JUST LOVE ME?

No, we don't. Go away. There's dozens of characters who have existed infinitely longer than you that are far better choices for Warchief, and the only reason Thrall didn't pick them was "well, apparently there's a bunch of young orcs that want a war hero, except this is the first time that plot point has come up and it came clear out of nowhere." I understand Cataclysm is supposed to be darker, but it shouldn't be darker at the expense of intelligent writing.

[Tyrilion]

youre a dork

Ahah havent heard that word in ages ... seriously the best comeback you could come up with

OP: since the events at the end of wotlk ive never been to keen on garrosh leading the horde, althought he is an amazing warrior, that has fought off so many evils in the past ... hese not the same char anymore his quotes when clicked on will confirm that... and especially the events leading you into twighlight highlands, his thirst for the spilling of alliance blood almost kill his fleet and himself.

Tbh any Credit he recives isnt going to be for doing anything good... reckon the next idiotic act is killing the Dark spear Troll leader, Vol'jin

[Deleted]

Here's the problem:

Yes, Garrosh has "improved" in the literal sense. But he's improved in the most jarring and unrealistic fashion possible. It almost feels like they made him pull a complete personality 180 to try and dampen the negative reaction towards him.

The fact that we originally had a leak from Boub that Cairne would be flat-out killed by Garrosh, but then it ended up that it was actually due to Magatha's poison screams "writing decision changed after the fact." It almost feels like they deliberately softened up much more harsh and dark plans for the character because the fan reaction was so negative, so this improved "honor" of Garrosh's just seems so completely inauthentic and contrived.

We don't really get the sense that Garrosh learned anything to lead in to this major character change. We just have "I learned from Saurfang, take my word for it." But even when you remove that, his actions in The Shattering and "Heart of War" are just wildly inconsistent from what we've seen previously.

For example: in the comic, Saurfang observed that Garrosh was already getting ready to usurp Thrall's rule before the Lich King ever attacked. He was very aggressive and rude towards Thrall all the time both before and during Wrath of the Lich King.

But then when you read "Heart of War," they try to play it up that Garrosh was just acting how he thought was best, and that he truthfully respects Thrall. Apparently the time he tried to fight him in a mak'gora was just to try and get him to act, but as I already said, they established previously that he wanted to take control all along and then they quickly dropped that plot point. After Nagrand, we NEVER see Garrosh treat Thrall with any respect. It almost feels like this respect was tacked on later solely to try and get more people to like him.

"Hey, people like Thrall. So if Garrosh likes Thrall, maybe people will like him!"

That's why Garrosh gets no credit, at least from me. He's a mess of a character. The continuity and consistency surrounding him is an unpleasant vortex of shit that can't be fixed. He upstages characters that have been in this franchise for 8+ years and they're all sucked into his black hole of nonsense.

Seriously. Vol'jin, Rexxar, Varok Saurfang, Baine, Garona...

These are characters who have had very little to no development or screen-time since several games back. Cataclysm could've been their time to shine and do some great things, get some character development, maybe go into a leadership role. Even characters who have screen time in Cataclysm like Baine or Vol'jin are shaped purely by how they interact with Garrosh - they don't stand on their own. After Vol'jin argues with Garrosh, he goes back to doing nothing while Garrosh flings people off cliffs and 12 year olds call him a BAMF in their ignorance.

But nope! We have to continue putting up with this obnoxious brown turd purely because Metzen can't let go of his big masturbation fantasy regarding Grom's sacrifice. We get it, Chris. Grom did some great stuff. But you gotta let that emotional punchline die already.

Which leads us to Cataclysm, in which he continues doing a bunch of stuff that screams "THE WRITERS WANT YOU TO LOVE ME." WHOA, I THREW A TOTAL JERK OFF A CLIFF. AREN'T I SO AWESOME? DON'T YOU JUST LOVE ME?

No, we don't. Go away. There's dozens of characters who have existed infinitely longer than you that are far better choices for Warchief, and the only reason Thrall didn't pick them was "well, apparently there's a bunch of young orcs that want a war hero, except this is the first time that plot point has come up and it came clear out of nowhere." I understand Cataclysm is supposed to be darker, but it shouldn't be darker at the expense of intelligent writing.

I like Garrosh as do many!
You need to stop looking at Garrosh from a Human stand point and that looking at him from a Orc stand point!
Humans orc emotions change in different ways and that's why he acts the way he dose!
Thrall on the other hand was raised by humans!

Btw you need to chill, your post made you seem to me like an angry child or retarded nazi!
I dont want to come of as an ass or anything but dude everyone has there own opinion and to say Im a kids because i thing hes cool for trowing an Orc off a cliff then you need to talk to someone about rage problims!


Anyway im an Alliance human paladin (i mean how Ally can you get) and i love Garrosh, both his honor and warmongering
But not as much as i love Varian

[Grimmer]

I like Garrosh as do many!
You need to stop looking at Garrosh from a Human stand point and that looking at him from a Orc stand point!
Humans orc emotions change in different ways and that's why he acts the way he dose!
Thrall on the other hand was raised by humans!

The whole "orc" argument is part of the problem, really. Everything Thrall does, despite being raised by humans, resonates with how orcish culture SHOULD be, how it actually was.

The emphasis on martial prowess that Garrosh stresses is a relic of orc culture that was distorted by dark dealings. For all his rejection of daddy, he's continuing all the things he did wrong and more. He's more like Blackhand than Doomhammer.

So no. Your attempt at illustrating it as some kind of dichotomy is pretty uninformed. An idiot of an outdated culture is still an idiot.

Also, even if we did approach this from a post-Legion orcish perspective - thinking about this as a meta-writing kind of approach, your characters still need human qualities and characteristics in order to be in any way approachable or sympathetic. These are not sympathetic attributes.

You can argue "maybe they're not supposed to be!" but they are. Half of what separated Warcraft from Warhammer is that orcs were somewhat educated and noble compared to the usual DURR HURR Tolkein-inspired orcs in virtually every game. But now this is a giant step backwards.

Btw you need to chill, your post made you seem to me like an angry child or retarded nazi!
I dont want to come of as an ass or anything but dude everyone has there own opinion and to say Im a kids because i thing hes cool for trowing an Orc off a cliff then you need to talk to someone about rage problims!

Your spelling and immediate Godwin's Law tells me you're a child. I'm going to continue calling you a child until you start acting like something other than a child.

Anyway im an Alliance human paladin (i mean how Ally can you get) and i love Garrosh, both his honor and warmongering
But not as much as i love Varian

Garrosh is so 2002. We dealt with this bullshit back in WC3 - the themes of redemption and the orcish culture have already sailed. To continue dwelling on it is just a rehash.

Drama is all well and good. So is the analysis of some darker themes. But after WC3, this was all supposed to be over with - the culture of the orcs was redeemed and they cut out a new future for themselves. If this just keeps repeating itself constantly, none of the development matters anymore.

If history is just going to keep repeating itself so long as Blizzard wants to keep up the silly emotional theatrics, nothing we do or the characters do feels real or impactful. Garrosh sets the story back almost a decade, and it's stupid.

[Deleted]

The whole "orc" argument is part of the problem, really. Everything Thrall does, despite being raised by humans, resonates with how orcish culture SHOULD be, how it actually was.

The emphasis on martial prowess that Garrosh stresses is a relic of orc culture that was distorted by dark dealings. For all his rejection of daddy, he's continuing all the things he did wrong and more. He's more like Blackhand than Doomhammer.

So no. Your attempt at illustrating it as some kind of dichotomy is pretty uninformed. An idiot of an outdated culture is still an idiot.

Also, even if we did approach this from a post-Legion orcish perspective - thinking about this as a meta-writing kind of approach, your characters still need human qualities and characteristics in order to be in any way approachable or sympathetic. These are not sympathetic attributes.

You can argue "maybe they're not supposed to be!" but they are. Half of what separated Warcraft from Warhammer is that orcs were somewhat educated and noble compared to the usual DURR HURR Tolkein-inspired orcs in virtually every game. But now this is a giant step backwards.



Your spelling and immediate Godwin's Law tells me you're a child. I'm going to continue calling you a child until you start acting like something other than a child.



Garrosh is so 2002. We dealt with this bullshit back in WC3 - the themes of redemption and the orcish culture have already sailed. To continue dwelling on it is just a rehash.

Drama is all well and good. So is the analysis of some darker themes. But after WC3, this was all supposed to be over with - the culture of the orcs was redeemed and they cut out a new future for themselves. If this just keeps repeating itself constantly, none of the development matters anymore.

If history is just going to keep repeating itself so long as Blizzard wants to keep up the silly emotional theatrics, nothing we do or the characters do feels real or impactful. Garrosh sets the story back almost a decade, and it's stupid.

1) your wrong about how Orc should act, i wouldnt say they where blood crazed but they where not pacifist, they where still very savage back on Outland

2) Your talking my own argument " your a child" and trying to use it against me, How drool!
On top of that you one of the many idiots who thinks being a child is Equal to spelling and grammar, if you where actually educated (which most children are not) you would know that not everyone is a master at spelling and grammar, but we dont care!

3) This is 2010/2011 and garrosh is the new leader of the horde dont like it, reroll alliance, still dont like it? Quit
Its that simple!

Im going to leave you know because i think by now your embarrassed at what a tawt you have been here on the forums

I will however leave you whit this to wrap things up:

[HavokHeart]

Okay, with the "Thrall: Then and Now" thing poping up, I came to see how much people despise Garrosh, still seeing him as a warmongering ducebag, we met in Northrend.

Did anyone bother to check any non-ingame like wowpedia, or maybe read the "Heart of War" or "The Shattering", to see he's actually far from what he was back than?

I'm a Thrall supporter as much as the next guy, but I'm kinnda tired that people don't even bother seeing how Garrosh has developed since TBC/WRATH.

Vol'jin doesn't like him. I don't like him.