Tanks should never stack stam in Cataclysm. (Actually, it's a question.)

[Eldil]

Before i begin, I should post a bit of background--

My main is a priest healer, not a tank. My priest is currently pre-raid geared (with an equipped average ilevel of 348). I've healed every heroic dungeon multiple times successfully.

I have two alts that are level 80+, both tanks--a paladin (lvl 84) and a DK (still 80). I tanked AND healed everything in ICC10 except heroic LK during WOTLK. ...I have been playing WoW for a grand total of 8 months, so I have no real experience with BC or Vanilla, but I progressed very quickly from a total noob to an experienced raider in WotLK (and, beyond the first 6 normal mode in ICC, I was raid leading even as I learned the fights -- for my guild, it was progression.)



That said, I have a very simple statement that is really more a question.

Simply this: Tanks should never stack stam in Cataclysm.


These are the SURVIVABILITY stats for tanks: Stamina, Dodge, Parry (for plate tanks), Block (For warriors/pallies), Mastery, Armor
These are the purposes of those stats:
Stamina - Provide a "cushion" to absorb damage (This is the "safety margin"). Basically, it extends the health bar so the healer has time to refill it.
Armor - Mitigation, reduce incoming damage total
Block - Mitigation, reduce incoming damage total
Parry - Avoidance, reduce incoming damage total
Dodge - Avoidance, reduce incoming damage total
Mastery - Varies, but usually mitigation/avoidance



What's behind this? Well, as a healer I'm seeing first hand what causes tank deaths in the new cataclysm dungeon environment. The primary factor is my mana. ...The only time I have ever seen a tank get one-shotted is from "standing in the bad." Two-shotted? Same story. Heroic dungeon bosses might hit for 1/3 of a tank's health, MAYBE. (In BRC, the evolved adds hit harder, true, but that's probably the most tank damage I've seen.) This is no longer ruby sanctum, where baltharus would two-shot a tank before I could get a heal off. ...Total tank damage taken is not much higher than it was in WotLK from what I've seen.

The way I've heard the situation best summed up is this: "Healer mana is now the main soft enrage timer in WoW."

It is very rare in a fight that I can't keep a tank healed up if the DPS aren't taking massive damage also...Yet, when I do research on what tanks are stacking, it's always stamina. ...Oh, sure, it might be half stam half parry or half stam half dodge now instead of PURE stam (or half mastery for pallies) but people are STILL stacking stamina on every gem and every enchant, and the only purpose of that is to increase health pool, not to reduce incoming damage.

Now, admittedly, I haven't had the ability to raid in cata yet (my guild is slow to gear and level) but it seems to me that no tank should ever take stam as a survivability stat other than what comes native on their gear (I'll leave threat values aside here) except as a half stat for a blue socket to get the socket bonus. Health pool means so little now compared to mitigation/avoidance that I can't take a tank seriously if they're stacking stam.

I expect this situation to be magnified, if anything, in raids. Yeah, the bosses will do more tank damage, but with a healer focused primarily on healing the tank(s), that should balance out. (note this is speaking from inexperience regarding raids)


So what I need is INFORMED opinions (preferably from people with real experience) to agree or disagree with this viewpoint.

Thanks in advance

[perjjxx]

Tanks still need a good amount of EH for magic fights, we cant block,dodge or parry magic. So in those fights we need to stack stam.

[Smuttly]

Yeah, but I know bears can absorb magic damage with enough crits!

I agree with the healer though. Stam stacking is going to get you killed. My healers have noticed a sizeable difference in healing me since I got my mastery up.

However, do not go pure avoidance on gems. Get your hybrids with Stamina on them.

[BoomChickn]

To be honest, I share the same opinions as you, enchant/gem avoidance/mitigation, and offgem/chant stam if there is nothing else. I had the same logic even in bc, but yes the spike damage from wrath was what warranted stam over all else. Personally I believe now avoidance would be better than stamina now. If we still need effective health, Ill generally just go with all hybrid gems then, but I never liked pure gems for some reason... if you see one of my toons, you will often see them with only 1-2 blue/yellow/red gems, all the rest are hybrid gems.

[Eldil]

However, do not go pure avoidance on gems. Get your hybrids with Stamina on them.

Why?

This is the sort of mindless habitual behavior that I'm trying to address with my post here.

Every bit of research that I've done shows two very contradictory things:

1. Tanks really dont NEED to gem stam anymore.

2. Everybody says "use hybrids with stam on them"

[xandamere]

I've been going pure avoidance on everything for my warrior. I have a couple of hybrid gems with stam for blue sockets that have socket bonuses I want, but that's it. All of my enchants are for avoidance, I'm even using the agi/mastery shoulder enchant over the dodge/stam one. And I use heroic Tia's Grace as a tanking trinket because it has the most overall avoidance of any pre-raid trinket in the game right now. I have about 89% combat table coverage right now when raid buffed, with a couple of procs/abilities to push it up towards 100%.

And the healers love me for it.

[Rambear]

That depends.

Various players of all classes doing heroic raids gem stamina, so there is an argument there.

I'll focus on bears, as I know them best.

No bear in a top 20 guild stacks anything other then stamina. Arguably, they started raiding/heroic raiding asap, which means they might not have all best pre-raid gear etc so needed the EH. Or the people they play with are skilled at avoiding damage (melee) and being mana-efficient (healers) so that more damage on tank is not a problem.

On the other hand, most bearsims put agi above stam, even without added armour from agility. The question is what a safe-zone is for miimum amount of HP before we avoid getting 2-shotted. The EH/TTL versus avoidance debate is about as old as this game, and hard to decide conclusively.

I'd say avoidance is bet, but:

Chimaeron as offtank you need to stay above 10k after the first double-attack-> Since he hits for an odd 150k, that means 160k+ is a minumu.
Halfius heric drakes seem to hit for 80k or so, meaning that 160k+ or 240k+ are boundaries you need to go above. to not get two shotted. 160k+ is the only real option I guess.

I think on EJ they figured Nefarian was actually the hardest hitting boss for 150k UNMITIGATED, meaning about 70k-ish, and some unavoidable stuff. So from pure Fingerspitzengefühl I would say that after an odd 160-170k raidbuffed is the time to start stacking avoidance.

More importantly, tank sims are never completely accurate. They depend heavily on thetype of damage (stam vs magic bosses), the healers you bring, the dps that gets done (boss down faster means less mana-efficiendy needed) etc.

For bears, this might mean that at some point the agi head enchant/shoulder enchant, flask (in any case) and gemming might change away from pure stam. Hell, right now I gem
blue-stam, red-Agi/stam and yellow-dodge/stam. This might even swap to blue-agi/stam, red-agility and green dodge/stam and pure agi when socket bonus is crap.

Mostly, it'll be a matter of figuring out what works best on which boss, with which set-up and even reforge/re-enchant or get double pieces gemmed/enchanted differently when appropriate(expensive, but yeah)

[Thrive]

Before i begin, I should post a bit of background--

My main is a priest healer, not a tank. My priest is currently pre-raid geared (with an equipped average ilevel of 348). I've healed every heroic dungeon multiple times successfully.

I have two alts that are level 80+, both tanks--a paladin (lvl 84) and a DK (still 80). I tanked AND healed everything in ICC10 except heroic LK during WOTLK. ...I have been playing WoW for a grand total of 8 months, so I have no real experience with BC or Vanilla, but I progressed very quickly from a total noob to an experienced raider in WotLK (and, beyond the first 6 normal mode in ICC, I was raid leading even as I learned the fights -- for my guild, it was progression.)



That said, I have a very simple statement that is really more a question.

Simply this: Tanks should never stack stam in Cataclysm.


These are the SURVIVABILITY stats for tanks: Stamina, Dodge, Parry (for plate tanks), Block (For warriors/pallies), Mastery, Armor
These are the purposes of those stats:
Stamina - Provide a "cushion" to absorb damage (This is the "safety margin"). Basically, it extends the health bar so the healer has time to refill it.
Armor - Mitigation, reduce incoming damage total
Block - Mitigation, reduce incoming damage total
Parry - Avoidance, reduce incoming damage total
Dodge - Avoidance, reduce incoming damage total
Mastery - Varies, but usually mitigation/avoidance



What's behind this? Well, as a healer I'm seeing first hand what causes tank deaths in the new cataclysm dungeon environment. The primary factor is my mana. ...The only time I have ever seen a tank get one-shotted is from "standing in the bad." Two-shotted? Same story. Heroic dungeon bosses might hit for 1/3 of a tank's health, MAYBE. (In BRC, the evolved adds hit harder, true, but that's probably the most tank damage I've seen.) This is no longer ruby sanctum, where baltharus would two-shot a tank before I could get a heal off. ...Total tank damage taken is not much higher than it was in WotLK from what I've seen.

The way I've heard the situation best summed up is this: "Healer mana is now the main soft enrage timer in WoW."

It is very rare in a fight that I can't keep a tank healed up if the DPS aren't taking massive damage also...Yet, when I do research on what tanks are stacking, it's always stamina. ...Oh, sure, it might be half stam half parry or half stam half dodge now instead of PURE stam (or half mastery for pallies) but people are STILL stacking stamina on every gem and every enchant, and the only purpose of that is to increase health pool, not to reduce incoming damage.

Now, admittedly, I haven't had the ability to raid in cata yet (my guild is slow to gear and level) but it seems to me that no tank should ever take stam as a survivability stat other than what comes native on their gear (I'll leave threat values aside here) except as a half stat for a blue socket to get the socket bonus. Health pool means so little now compared to mitigation/avoidance that I can't take a tank seriously if they're stacking stam.

I expect this situation to be magnified, if anything, in raids. Yeah, the bosses will do more tank damage, but with a healer focused primarily on healing the tank(s), that should balance out. (note this is speaking from inexperience regarding raids)


So what I need is INFORMED opinions (preferably from people with real experience) to agree or disagree with this viewpoint.

Thanks in advance

Elitist Jerkz has a good post about this basicly Stamina>Mastery>Parry>Dodge
I took this to mean stamina is still important but you SHOULD NOT stack stamina.
(This is for Warrior Tanks)

[Judic]

DK tanks might be an exception in this. DKs mastery puts a blood shield on them for a % of how much they heal with death strike. The higher the stam the DK has, the higher the DS heal, the higher the DS heal, the bigger the shield. A good DK tank has his blood shield up a good deal of the time.

[shokter]

Never say never. Check with your healers about how comfortable they feel with your HP pool/inc damage ratio. Different encounters will likely demand different HP. That being said I am not stacking very much stam as a prot warr. I am using 101 stam jewelers gems and the rest parry/mastery and parry/stam depending on socket. I have 1 stam trink I can swap in if need be, but I am going with avoidance/mitigation trinks mostly.

[Eldil]

And, IMO, while elitist jerks may have excellent posts on theorycrafting, the conclusions they draw are only right about 60% of the time, and considering how much people dislike change, you're looking at a serious question of who's got the most valid opinion here.

Thats why I asked for informed opinions --- IE people who are already raiding.

(Plus my MT in my guild is a bear-- approaching 160k hp with zero raid gear and an average ilevel of ~ 340, gemming pretty much pure dodge/mastery, so that 160k threshold isn't all THAT hard to hit).

I definitely appreciate the numbers and info.

---------- Post added 2011-01-02 at 02:51 AM ----------

DK tanks might be an exception in this. DKs mastery puts a blood shield on them for a % of how much they heal with death strike. The higher the stam the DK has, the higher the DS heal, the higher the DS heal, the bigger the shield. A good DK tank has his blood shield up a good deal of the time.

One of my two tanks is a dk also.

I would be really interested to see the results of stacking stam vs stacking dodge/parry on a DK. (I understand the mechanics, and yes--this is the one POSSIBLE exception that I see. Still would be interested in seeing numbers)

[Torahn]

I had a hunter yell at me for "stacking stamina" in a random last night. He said I wasn't getting all the socket bonuses and was missing out on stats. I had been going after stam socket bonuses when worthwhile, but I was passing up 20 dodge, 10 dodge, and 10 mastery socket bonuses.

For the time being I'm sticking with prioritizing stamina. I'm not ignoring everything else, but as a warrior my self heals as well as vengeance scale with my health. It gives me bonus healing, more threat, as well as a bigger cup for my healer to fill. More dodge, parry, or master simply increase my chance to avoid incoming melee damage. And the massive 20 dodge rating bonus only works out to .06% dodge chance in my current gear.

[tibben]

Bear mastery is savage defense. Savage defense absorbs damage based on your current attack power. Your current attack power is increased by vengeance. Vengeance increases your attack power based on your max health. Therefore stacking stamina for bears is effectively increasing your mitigation through savage defense if you are tanking a boss that allows your vengeance to stack to the max (i.e. raid bosses, not necessarily running heroics).

I wouldn't say blindly stack stamina, but if you have something other than 60 stam in a blue socket as a bear you are doing it wrong. I believe DKs have a similar mechanic with their mastery and death strike. Paladins and Warriors should definitely not be blindly stacking stam though. Mastery is good, mmkay?

[Jonisawsom]

Yeah, but I know bears can absorb magic damage with enough crits!

I hope that was sarcasm, because that's totally untrue. DKs mastery also doesn't absorb magic damage. Basically savage defense and DK master are only physical absorbs so that they are "the equivalent" of block for Pally/Warrior.

OT: Rambear basically nailed it (at least for Bears).

[Deleted]

There are already a lot of good guides out there.

This one for example is an excerpt from Maintankadin.

4.0.3a Gem Guide

Digren says, "Remember, use survival gems on your survival gear, and threat gems on your threat gear. Then wear all of one set, all of the other, or a mix as necessary."


How to Understand This Guide

The available options have been ordered and marked for recommendation. Survivability and threat gems are individually marked. The "best of the best" are highlighted in bold. Finally, tips are provided to help explain the selections and provide links to relevant theory.

1. Best for survivability.
2. Best for threat (when building a threat set).

When to Match Socket Colors

In general, tanks need both effective health and avoidance+block to increase their survivability. Matching socket bonuses yields the most "points" per item. Thus, until initial raid theory is developed that says otherwise, the best choice is to match for all socket bonuses in survivability gear.



1.) Survival Gems

Meta Gem Slot

1. [Austere Shadowspirit Diamond] : +81 Stamina and +2% Armor from Items : Jewelcrafting
2. [Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond] : +81 Stamina and +1% Block Value : Jewelcrafting
3. [Effulgent Shadowspirit Diamond] : +81 Stamina and -2% Spell Damage Taken : Jewelcrafting
4. [Powerful Shadowspirit Diamond] : +81 Stamina and -10% Stun Durationg : Jewelcrafting
5. [Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond] +54 Mastery Rating and +8% Movement Speed : Jewelcrafting
   
   Digren says, "With no defense gem, this list pretty much boils down to stamina and something, where something is 2% armor, 1% shield block value, or 2% reduced spell damage. For physical, blockable damage, 1% block value reduces incoming damage more than 2% armor once your avoidance+block is about 85%."

Blue Gem Slot or Colorless Gem Slot

1. [Solid Chimera's Eye] : +101 Stamina : BoP Jewelcrafting
2. [Solid Ocean Sapphire] : +60 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
3. [Puissant Dream Emerald] : +20 Mastery Rating and +30 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
4. [Perfect Solid Zephyrite] : +53 Stamina : No longer possible to create
5. [Perfect Puissant Jasper] : +18 Mastery Rating and +26 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
6. [Solid Zephyrite] : +45 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
7. [Puissant Jasper] : +15 Mastery Rating and +23 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
   
   Digren says, "Some tanks are finding that mastery rating feels so good, they are choosing it over stamina. Be careful; there are still situations where stamina reigns. At this point, pure stamina is the safe bet for blue gems lots, while stamina/mastery gems are riskier but potentially superior in some cases."

Red Gem Slot

1. [Defender's Demonseye] : +20 Parry Rating and +30 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
2. [Shifting Demonseye] : +20 Agility and +30 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
3. [Flashing Chimera's Eye] : +67 Parry Rating : BoP Jewelcrafting
4. [Delicate Chimera's Eye] : +67 Agility : BoP Jewelcrafting
5. [Flashing Inferno Ruby] : +40 Parry Rating : Jewelcrafting
6. [Delicate Inferno Ruby] : +40 Agility : Jewelcrafting
7. [Perfect Defender's Nightstone] : +18 Parry Rating and +26 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
8. [Perfect Shifting Nightstone] : +18 Agility and +23 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
9. [Perfect Flashing Carnelian] : +35 Parry Rating : Jewelcrafting
10. [Perfect Delicate Carnelian] : +35 Agility : Jewelcrafting
11. [Defender's Nightstone] : +15 Parry Rating and +23 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
12. [Shifting Nightstone] : +15 Agility and +23 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
13. [Flashing Carnelian] : +30 Parry Rating : Jewelcrafting
14. [Delicate Carnelian] : +30 Agility : Jewelcrafting
    
    Digren says, "Agility's days as a survival stat are over, because it no longer provides armor and provides just 75% as much dodge benefit as dodge rating. Unless your dodge/parry ratio is way out of whack (at a ratio to be determined later), and with the moving of dodge rating to yellow gems, parry/sta is now the best option for matching red sockets."

Yellow Gem Slot

1. [Puissant Dream Emerald] : +20 Mastery Rating and +30 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
2. [Fractured Chimera's Eye] : +67 Mastery Rating : BoP Jewelcrafting
3. [Subtle Chimera's Eye] : +67 Dodge Rating : BoP Jewelcrafting
4. [Fractured Amberjewel] : +40 Mastery Rating : Jewelcrafting
5. [Regal Dream Emerald] : +20 Dodge Rating and +30 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
6. [Subtle Amberjewel] : +40 Dodge Rating : Jewelcrafting
7. [Perfect Puissant Jasper] : +18 Mastery Rating and +26 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
8. [Perfect Regal Jasper] : +18 Dodge Rating and +26 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
9. [Perfect Fractured Alicite] : +35 Mastery Rating : Jewelcrafting
10. [Perfect Subtle Alicite] : +35 Dodge Rating : Jewelcrafting
11. [Puissant Jasper] : +15 Mastery Rating and +23 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
12. [Regal Jasper] : +15 Dodge Rating and +23 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
13. [Fractured Alicite] : +30 Mastery Rating : Jewelcrafting
14. [Subtle Alicite] : +30 Dodge Rating : Jewelcrafting
    
    Digren says, "With mastery rating better than dodge rating for overall damage reduction, Puissant gems are perfect for yellow gem slots. Some tanks are considering Fractured gems to stack mastery over stamina."

Cogwheel Gem Slot (Yay engineering!)

1. [Fractured Cogwheel] : +208 Mastery Rating : Engineering Only
2. [Subtle Cogwheel] : +208 Dodge Rating : Engineering Only
3. [Flashing Cogwheel] : +208 Parry Rating : Engineering Only
   
   Digren says, "The mastery 'gem' is the best choice for survivability, but the cogwheel is unique-equipped. Engineers, for your second cogwheel slot, select the cogwheel that will boost the lesser of your dodge or parry percentage, as it should yield the higher overall effect due to diminishing returns."

2.) Threat Gems

Meta Gem Slot

1. [Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond] : +54 Critical Strike Rating and +3% Critical Damage : Jewelcrafting
2. [Enigmatic Shadowspirit Diamond] : +54 Critical Strike Rating and 10% Reduced Snare / Root Duration : Jewelcrafting
   
   Digren says, "It's not likely that many threat sets will include a helm. A notable exception, though, is an engineer's threat set, because he or she can regem the meta and cogwheel slots for threat."

Blue Gem Slot or Colorless Gem Slot (including all slots where the socket bonus is poor)

1. [Rigid Chimera's Eye] : +67 Hit Rating : Jewelcrafting
2. [Rigid Ocean Sapphire] : +40 Hit Rating : Jewelcrafting
3. [Solid Chimera's Eye] : +101 Stamina : BoP Jewelcrafting
4. [Solid Ocean Sapphire] : +60 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
5. [Accurate Demonseye] : +20 Expertise Rating and +20 Hit Rating : Jewelcrafting
   
   Digren says, "The conflict between hit rating and stamina is difficult to resolve. Even tanks in full threat gear need some amount of stamina. I recommend:
   
   1. First try to reach the hit soft cap through other means, then
   2. Only if necessary use pure hit rating gems to reach the cap, then
   3. Use stamina gems in any remaining blue slots in your threat gear.
   1. "

Red Gem Slot (with a good socket bonus)

1. [Precise Chimera's Eye] : +67 Expertise Rating : BoP Jewelcrafting
2. [Precise Inferno Ruby] : +40 Expertise Rating : Jewelcrafting
3. [Accurate Demonseye] : +20 Expertise Rating and +20 Hit Rating : Jewelcrafting
4. [Guardian's Demonseye] : +20 Expertise Rating and +30 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
   
   Digren says, "Expertise is the best threat option for red gem slots. It's also fine to combine expertise with hit rating or stamina, as you prefer."

Yellow Gem Slot (with a good socket bonus)

1. [Smooth Chimera's Eye] : +67 Critical Strike Rating : BoP Jewelcrafting
2. [Smooth Amberjewel] : +40 Critical Strike Rating : Jewelcrafting
3. [Jagged Dream Emerald] : +20 Critical Strike Rating and +30 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
   
   Digren says, "There aren't many good options for threat gems in yellow slots."

Cogwheel Gem Slot (Yay engineering!)

1. [Precise Cogwheel] : +208 Expertise Rating : Engineering Only
2. [Rigid Cogwheel] : +208 Hit Rating : Engineering Only
3. [Smooth Cogwheel] : +208 Critical Strike Rating : Engineering Only
   
   Digren says, "The ability to completely customize an easy-to-acquire helm for threat makes it likely that engineers will include a helm in their threat set. The expertise rating cogwheel is a given. If possible redesign your threat set to make use of this hit rating under the melee soft cap."

[T18Z]

Most ratings for tanks (dodge/parry/mastery) have all pretty much been brought together in overall damage reduction, some are of course slightly better than others but in general because of the gain from socket bonuses gemming purely in stamina or avoidance would probably net a slight increase in damage taken vs someone who went after all the bonuses simply because you gain more stats overall from gaining a socket bonus than without.

You also have to take into account that stamina is not only for spike damage, but also to help provide a cusion for unavoidable damage from magic attacks as well as the bonuses of more threat from vengance and a slight increase in overall self-healing. There are times when healers will have to stop casting either on you via healing someone else or by having to run away from an AoE/breath etc. The stamina is there so that you can survive if topped up for a higher amount of time without having to rely on the healer, and that will be guaranteed. When it comes down to avoidance however you cannot rely on the stat because of it's RnG and thats one of the main reasons why people use stamina gems for survivability and not avoidance. Stacking full stamina gems is bad, going for the socket bonuses while using avoidance/stam and mastery/stam gems is good, along with pure stamina in the blue sockets.

As a last note, avoidance is a stat that works at it's best when there is a lot of it, the more avoidance you have basically the better it becomes. However
avoidance is subject to DR so stacking it fully via trinket and gems is not advised. If you check all the top tanks in the world you should see a pattern begin to emerge with what they're doing with avoidance etc. Often when I see a tank saying they've stacked avoidance they later comment on how their healers found it "better or easier to heal" but when it comes down to it it's just an opinion (much like my own) and really shouldnt be taking too seriously. MANY things can account for a fight being easier to heal one try than the next, and I'm pretty sure 2-4% isnt one of them, but thats just me. In the end avoidance is all about RNG, thats what people have to remember when focusing purely on the stat. Tanks want a solid stat that can be relied on, and that has and never will be avoidance.

Edit: Healers don't know when you're going to avoid an attack, so naturally they cannot respond to it and will continue to heal you whether you're about to take damage or not. The stamina provides a nice amount of use for possible overhealing that may occur when you begin to take less damage or require more healing. I'd assume healers want a steady in-take of damage to be seen on tank, which avoidance can never really provide.

[Eldil]

In Reply to Flitter

Yes I read that guide.

I think they're wrong. They give zero reason for their opinions about stam, and it's completely counter-intuitive. Just because they said it doesn't make it true.
They do nothing to show me that their opinion is in any way informed or that they had considered the alternatives at all.

(Considering vengeance, I'd give stam a higher gem priority than some other things, but that is a THREAT value, not a survivability value.)



Reply to T18Z

Possibly true and certainly useful input, but you did not address the mana vs survivability issue.

Tell me, do you raid yet? ...Because your post SOUNDS to me like pure opinion.

[Venefikus]

Before i begin, I should post a bit of background--

My main is a priest healer, not a tank.

Thanks! Glad to see a priest healer who isn't a tank knows more about tanks than every tank I've ran into or elitist jerks.

[Eldil]

Stupid troll is stupid.

I have two alts that are level 80+, both tanks--a paladin (lvl 84) and a DK (still 80)

Plus, because I'm the raid leader for my guild, I have to be reasonably well acquainted with how every class functions.

That's partly what I'm trying to accomplish here.... Asking a question/testing a theory.

[DomBomb1]

I had a hunter yell at me for "stacking stamina" in a random last night. He said I wasn't getting all the socket bonuses and was missing out on stats. I had been going after stam socket bonuses when worthwhile, but I was passing up 20 dodge, 10 dodge, and 10 mastery socket bonuses.

For the time being I'm sticking with prioritizing stamina. I'm not ignoring everything else, but as a warrior my self heals as well as vengeance scale with my health. It gives me bonus healing, more threat, as well as a bigger cup for my healer to fill. More dodge, parry, or master simply increase my chance to avoid incoming melee damage. And the massive 20 dodge rating bonus only works out to .06% dodge chance in my current gear.

Ok, but how much health did you gain by not getting that socket bonus? Probably like 150 health. When you have 150k health, that's just about as "insignificant" as 0.06% dodge. And missing all those socket bonuses adds up.