Tanks should never stack stam in Cataclysm. (Actually, it's a question.)

[dvstec]

avoidance just can't guarantee that.

Well it kinda does, if ur say 17parry/17dodge and 45% block with 139k ur gonna survive more then some1 with 9dodge/11parry and 40block and 159k that extra 20k HP is gonna do crap all compared to several 100% avoidance dodges or parrys. To give you an idea thats the 2 tanks in our guild and the 'avoidance' tank took 50% less damage on most fights. After the logs lets just say one of the tank re-gemmed

Dont get me wrong stam is important, but 20k more HP aint gonna save ur life but stackign 14% or more avoidance split between parry n dodge will

[La]

My primary gem stat as a prot warrior is mastery, keeping with a 10% dodge and a reforge into parry. I think Blizzard wants tanks to make more choices and not just stack stamina and I also think it's better to prefer avoid over mass stam.

But my opinion of course, and apparently a LOT of others.

[Uroboros]

Why?

This is the sort of mindless habitual behavior that I'm trying to address with my post here.

Every bit of research that I've done shows two very contradictory things:

1. Tanks really dont NEED to gem stam anymore.

2. Everybody says "use hybrids with stam on them"

I wholeheartedly disagree with your first point. If tanks don't gem stamina at all, their health pools will be just a small percentage above DPS/Healers. Now, I understand what you are saying in the opening there. We shouldn't STACK stamina. But as far as gemming for it; those hybrids are going to be your best bet. Because you can stack up your avoidance but, you will never get close to the EH you would get by getting those hybrids. Although you may like to see your 60% avoidance total; you must think of that other 40%. If you gem pure avoidance you are going to be able to be instagibbed so fast. All it would take was a few good rolls on the good ol' RNG. Stamina and avoidance together give you a bigger pool of health for taking more hits as well as a greater chance to have attacks nullified. Anyway, just saw that post and had to give my spiel on it. Other than that I agree with most of what you said. Cheers!

[Hecow]

always been a tank main spec and now in cata i would say it depends on your tank class if i was a pally i would go avoid to the cap but i have always stacked stam on trinks and gems and just "in cata" reforge for the other stats never had them so low i couldnt make em work with chants and reforge atm and gem and trink for stam but meh its just imo.

[koranes]

for a DK tank stack stam/mastery as you should be useing DS as much as you can. avoidance you just take the passive you get on the gear.

[T18Z]

Speaking for paladins and warriors, i disagree with what you are saying. Avoidance can guarantee that for them with mastery.
Having your block level high enough so you will never get a normal hit on you is very good way of mitigating.
Imo Paladins and Warriors will want to aim to get unhittable instead of focusing on Stamina.
You are right with Dodge and Parry, those two will be way to random and add to low % to rely on. But this is certainly not true for Block.

I agree with what you're saying however you'd have to reach the unhittable cap before you could allow avoidance to be a guaranteed way of increasing overall time to live on melee attacks, and with the current gear levels in game that is not possible. I imagine as the item level increases for paladins it will become an obtainable option much sooner than warriors, but for now as far as I can understand it's not possible to reach yet, and thus avoidance even with the presence of mastery untill 102% overall is still RNG.

---------- Post added 2011-01-02 at 04:14 AM ----------

Well it kinda does, if ur say 17parry/17dodge and 45% block with 139k ur gonna survive more then some1 with 9dodge/11parry and 40block and 159k that extra 20k HP is gonna do crap all compared to several 100% avoidance dodges or parrys. To give you an idea thats the 2 tanks in our guild and the 'avoidance' tank took 50% less damage on most fights. After the logs lets just say one of the tank re-gemmed

Dont get me wrong stam is important, but 20k more HP aint gonna save ur life but stackign 14% or more avoidance split between parry n dodge will

I'm sorry but a 50 PERCENT reduction in damage from simply going avoidance compared to a stamina tank doesnt seem to be like even close to a logical statement. Also no tank has even close to the 102% mark yet, the only people who have even the slightest chance I think are paladins, and they still have a fair way to go. For later content patches it could begin to be a guaranteed reduction in damage and increase in time to live for melee attacks, but right nowit's not something which is taken into account. You also stated 20k hp would be traded for 14% avoidance, which I dont think is even close to possible and shows that I dont think you understand fully what you are talking about.

[Alshar]

Stamina is still a great stat for tanking. Anyone who is saying stack avoidance is off their rocker, and doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. Considering it takes what? 170-180ish rating to get 1% avoidance, while those ratings in Mastery provide far more survivability point for point. Avoidance will not save you, as 99% of tanks have less then 20% dodge+parry in this tier. I've seen people saying tanks have close to 20% dodge and 20% parry and that is just flat out lies. No tank has that high of stats for avoidance at this point in the xpac. Nor do I believe some random guy who just killed Halfus 10 man talk about tank damage taken. The numbers are already out there, and avoidance is far less important for a tank then Mastery.

Adding 1% more to the RNG of avoidance will not save healer mana, will not save your life. Mastery offers more mana savings, as a tank will have less Damage Taken Per Second (DTPS). If you've been running sims and comparing World of Logs, then you know tanks with higher mastery take less damage, and are therefor easier to heal. My tanking experience so far is [Glory of the Cataclysm Hero - Complete] and 9/12 raid progression. Stamina still matters, followed by Mastery. Avoidance (dodge/parry) are actually reforged OFF gear for Mastery where you can. It's just that good. Sims prove it, World of Logs/DTPS proves it, and I know in my experience it's true as well. Any healer saying that we should socket avoidance gems is 1) A healer and doesn't know what he is talking about or 2) A healer who's 5 man tank didn't use enough CC or use cooldowns. You can argue all you want, but simply stated Stamina and Mastery are the best stats for tanks and any opinion stating otherwise is uninformed and just flat out wrong.

[Deleo]

I don't care what people do. I always follow the tanking golden rule: Get enough HP to survive 2 hits from the hardest hitting boss of the content you are doing and then go avoidance after that point. Right now that number is around 170K I believe.

[Rogrend]

It's clear most of the people in the thread don't exactly understand WHY sta is better than avoidance (to gear for). Avoidance is rng, where as sta is always there. You can have an unlucky streak and not dodge/parry any attacks for 10 attacks in a row, in this situation gemming/gearing for avoidance was useless, and did nothing to help you. Where as if you geared for sta, it would greatly increase your chances of living. Armor and sta is ALWAYS and will ALWAYS be the way to gear.

[DomBomb1]

i totally agree. a boss is going to hit you no matter what, and dodge/parry can be too spikey. It does reduce dmg taken in a greater scale, but i'd prefer steady reduction.

Ok, but stamina doesn't give you a "steady reduction"... so what's the point of this post?

[GrodinLB]

Not really stacking, but if you're putting anything other than pure stam in a blue slot you're a maroon.

[Deleted]

Like sooooo many things atm people are still getting used to the changes and adapting so there will inevetably be stam stacking still while people find out if it is or is not the best thing to do.
The problem with avoidance in fights you don't know is that there is alot of mechanics with unavoidable damage or just insanely high numbers that any amount of avoidance wont help, plus the fact that so many tank abilities scale with health.

Theres just no way to know until proper raid testing has been done and the numbers have been looked at fully, one extremely (really extremely) unscientific way of looking at it is to see the people who are doing the raids and you will know for sure are having every point of every stat looked at in detail, This prot paladin for instance seems to be mainly stacking stam while going with hybrid gems to activate stam socket bonus's, im a firm believer in working things out for yourself but if stacking avoidance over stam everytime was the way to go im sure people would be noticing by now.

[Alshar]

Ok, but stamina doesn't give you a "steady reduction"... so what's the point of this post?

Mastery gives you steady reduction, and less DTPS (Damage Taken Per Second) point for point vs Avoidance.

[koranes]

here is the rule for a DK

Red slot - [orange] str/mastery, [purple] stam/str, or (if buff is pointless) [green] stam/mastery.

yellow - [green] stam/mastery no questions asked.

blue - [green] stam/mastery or [blue] stam

you want to aim for 16% mastery. this being so that your DS shields you for AT-LEAST 100% of what it heals you for.

[Slammin Shaman]

The guild i'm in is rather new to raiding, i mean like we've only done Magmaw on 10 man and some attempts on Omnotron. We had our warrior tank re-gem and reforge for some more mastery and he got a ton easier to heal, while losing like a few k's of hp.

Stam does not make you easier to heal. I would rather have a tank get hit once for 30k out of five hits, than get hit all 5 times for 10k each. Sure the consistency of the damage would be nice, but i like: big hit -> big heal -> wait like 5 sec -> repeat, alot more.

[Dedweight]

Every bit of research that I've done shows two very contradictory things:

1. Tanks really dont NEED to gem stam anymore.

2. Everybody says "use hybrids with stam on them"

The first one is both right and wrong. The second is mostly right. Now before I say much more I haven't stepped into a raid as of yet, I do not know how much harder the bosses hit in normal or heroic mode content but in Heroic 5 mans there's quite a bit of trash that hit harder than a number of the bosses and both pure avoidance or hybrid avoidance/stamina gems are accepted. In normal raids that may or may not be the case, yes healers mana is a deciding factor on what you stack and for earlier content you may prefer the avoidance/mitigation stats over pure stamina. However once you step into heroic raids what then?

Maybe someone that's doing heroic Raids could tell us how hard bosses are hitting for but I'd imagine stamina stacking could be more favorable than avoidance stacking at that level of raiding.

Not really stacking, but if you're putting anything other than pure stam in a blue slot you're a maroon.

If you're not using a stam gem in a blue socket you become a shade of red?

[DomBomb1]

We do in raids.

no, you don't. See I can make a completely useless and uninsightful post too.

[ragingsoul]

So I keep hearing.

Why should the primary stat be stamina now?

Believe me, I tanked ALL of heroic WOTLK ICC (except lich king himself). My raiding main WAS a tank at the time.

I understand spike damage. I understand spell damage. I understand "unparryable/undodgeable"


...The question really boils down to this: "How much stam is enough to keep the healers from losing you"

After that point stam is useless.


My theory is that now the native stam on gear is enough.


All you've said so far is that you're doing the same things teh same way you did in WOTLK (with minor modifications) ...which is pretty much just based on habit and the assumption that it's all the same as it always has been, which is patently false, IMO.

If you tanked, then you know you need more than 1 set of gear.

ANY good tank will tell you this. I have a bank full of tanking gear, that i can regem, re enchant as I please.
As a Tank, you keep every single piece of gear.

That said, you're stating the native stam on gear is enough. Enough for what?
heroics? normal raids? heroic raids?

The goal was always, to be able to take a reasonable amount of hits and not die, EH.

if a boss you're working on is hitting for 70k dmg, you will want 2x70k + 10% for the margin, meaning around 150k HP at the minimum.
This will give healers a sufficient amount of time to get the heals to land.

Then you have a couple choices:
- You can increase your HP to take another hit
- You can't increase your HP to take anther hit, no matter the gear.

If you can't increase your hp to take the 3rd hit, then keep a reasonable margin and then stack the 2nd best stat.
if you can increase your hp to take this 3rd hit, here, meaning more than 3x70=210k then it's a choice.
Either your healers are ok with the time they have to heal you, or they are stressed each time you take a hit.
From that, you either go for more mitigation, or more hp.

Either way, a tank has to work with his healers, and have multiple sets of gear for progression, in order to be at his best.

For paladins and warriors right now, more than 10 to 12% dodge or parry gets so high DR, that mastery gives more mitigation over the course of the fight.
Your theory to stack avoidance is nice, but it doesn't take that dodge and parry are submitted to diminishing returns!
For shield tank, once you reach the block cap (probably with the next tier), going for avoidance is stupid, as you will get almost nothing from it, it's a waste of ilvl points.
Stamina will always be here, and is the most reliable stats a tank can choose.

A Paladin that does it right, will have around 12% dodge and parry, and 50+% block. Add to that 5% miss chance, and a couple % more avoidance from buffs, you get around 85 to 90% avoidance + block. I suspect the block cap at 102.4% will be done with the next tier. After than, tanks will gem stamina either way, and slowly reforged back the mastery to pure avoidance, as we did in TBC, with crushing blows (replacing the block rating by pure avoidance).

Overall, stamina is still king for a lot of fights and scenarios, because with armor it's what makes the effective health of a tank. Avoidance is nice, but like stated before, will be useless against magical dmg, or when the tank is stun, or have mobs from behind.
Going into heroics with only avoidance may look nice on paper, but at the first stun or misspull, you will get raped if you don't have the EH to survive the time needed to get the heals.

[kronpas]

DK tanks pretty much stack stamina & mastery for their mastery works better with more stam, plus their avoidance is terrible. Other tanks can choose to pursue stam if they wish so, it wont matter much this early into the expansion since the cost of avoidance is so high with so little budget your gear has. You obvious dont play a tank, or dont put much research into tanking lately.

[Deleted]

I can't comment on all classes because they all have different ways of working but I can comment on Paladins because it's what I use. My understanding from what I've read and experienced is that while stamina certainly has its place it isn't the be all, and end all of gems. The days of "stacking" stamina are gone for us.

My ilvl is currently 350 and fully raid buffed I hover around 170k. I need to replace a few standard gems and switch some stuff around that will probaly push my stamina up a little but that's a result of not needing to hit the hit and expertise cap due to threat not being a problem. Hovering around 10.5 dodge, 12.2 parry and ive stacked mastery when ever I could baring blue sockets that I've put 40 stamina in. It leaves me with a 50.5% block chance.

Stacking stamina wrath style as a paladin would be pure stupidity given how powerful mastery is for us. Yes I know the argument against it due to magic but those attacks don't hit for 170k, not even close and given the fact any good healer should have you shielded and you'll more than likely be popping a cool down for the big hits. The EH health you have really isn't an issue if you gem the odd blue full and a few combo's to meet socket bonus' that give a good enough reward.

I've tanked baradins hold with two tanks who stacked stamina and their health, and subsequently the healer who was on them struggled far more than they did on me. It consistently went lower than mine did due to normal damage and after the meteor slash they became increasingly more vulnerable. The damage I took was consistent before and after the meteor slash and that ties in nicely with what EJ are saying about paladin tanks & mastery.

If the damage you take prior & after high damage abilities is less or simply easier to heal the healer saves mana. The more that healer is able to concentrate on their movement, on others, on utility if needed.... On the burst of damage that is about to hit you the tank. They can burst you up after it hits and fall back into a comftable rotation.

If you stack solely stamina just for your fear of those big hits. You're making 90% of a fight harder work on your healer because the damage you take is less consistent because you're blocking far less. If you're taking 40% more damage a larger chunk of the time that EH you have isn't all that effective. It's wasting mana, causing problems for your healer in a stage of the fight that can be reduced. When the big hit does come the benefits of mastery aren't there to soften the blow either side of the of it.

It isn't just about taking one big hit. Its about the whole duration of the fight and the implications both ways of gemming has. Going wrath in cata content may make "you" feel better about being able to take a big hit but is it better for your healer? Is it better for the raid?

I don't think it is and as the OP has pointed out several times. It's based on very little but wrath mentality.