Stop cheating Item level.

[TGS]

Every time I random into a failing heroic group, at least two group members are wearing greens and ungemmed and unenchanted blues. If you're socketed 333/346 is not gemmed and enchanted, it might as well be a green.

With the right group makeup when it comes to CC and buffs, you're probably clearing the heroics in that gear, but keep in mind that you're making things harder on your healer and you're probably getting carried.

"If you are wearing a unenchanted/ungemmed blue it might as well be a green" Where the hell do you get that logic from? The BASE stats of a blue are higher than a green even without sockets or enchants factored into it. Yes enchants and gems are a must at higher levels but the base stats of a blue with sockets will still be higher than a green. The only greens that even come close to blues are the better quest reward greens. And even those don't really compare. Now I'm not saying that is an excuse but I'll tell you right now I have a couple 333 blues that I have no intention of sinking expensive gems/enchants on when I fully intend to replace it and replace it asap.

[Clockwork Pinkie]

Heh, could care less about the gear they're wearing, just do their job right, listen to directions and everything will be fine, after all, they are meant to gear up, there will always be someone queueing for heroics just as they're able to, nothing you can do about it. If not, kick em, i've already got 2 alts running heroics, having people laugh at my gear, but then show them that I actually know what I doing, and after the run, I say thank you for carrying me, smiley face heart and leave.

[Deleted]

Or, ralise that blizz ballsed up by including bag items in ilvl calc for dungeons.

I have a lesser secondary healer set, which gimps my ilvl - and NO it isnt done by BiS I have proven this and ticketed/forumed blizz - no response.

My tanking ilvl is 340 , with my heal gear in bagit all drops to 336. still hc's now, but it wasnt 2 weeks ago, when i had to buy crappy cloth vendir loot because i de'd a non needed 333 which dropped me bekow hc.

[Evolixe]

So far, did this as dps, but obviousely doing it as dps and still pulling off 9-10k dps in ilvl 328 gear makes it irrilevant.

And as healer: Though i only missed 2 ilvls, i was perfectly able to heal through anything the cataclysm heroics could throw at me with a reasonable group.

Stop QQing about that itemlevel means everything, there are people out there that don't need the gear to do it right.

---------- Post added 2011-01-02 at 09:25 AM ----------

Or, ralise that blizz ballsed up by including bag items in ilvl calc for dungeons.

I have a lesser secondary healer set, which gimps my ilvl - and NO it isnt done by BiS I have proven this and ticketed/forumed blizz - no response.

My tanking ilvl is 340 , with my heal gear in bagit all drops to 336. still hc's now, but it wasnt 2 weeks ago, when i had to buy crappy cloth vendir loot because i de'd a non needed 333 which dropped me bekow hc.

The ilvl calc only picks the best items you have, it isnt an evarage, its a max.

[Deleted]

So far, did this as dps, but obviousely doing it as dps and still pulling off 9-10k dps in ilvl 328 gear makes it irrilevant.

And as healer: Though i only missed 2 ilvls, i was perfectly able to heal through anything the cataclysm heroics could throw at me with a reasonable group.

Stop QQing about that itemlevel means everything, there are people out there that don't need the gear to do it right.

---------- Post added 2011-01-02 at 09:25 AM ----------



The ilvl calc only picks the best items you have, it isnt an evarage, its a max.

This is NOT true, and i have proven it to blizz.

[Rizyu]

I mainly run with guild now and may pug 1 spot.
My healing set is well over 333 gear, and even my off spec kitty feral is getting there *only 1 green left*. So its not hard to get the rep and gear. Just takes a while.

[darkpower]

Only going to say...does anyone else find it weird that the OP is answering different arguments of why GS/iLvL doesn't equal skill with the same answer?

"Yes, BUT it won't matter if they aren't geared up properly!"

This, and if you notice, the OP isn't exactly taking situational matters, guild runs, or people that were sitting at 328 and needed 329 and have been very unlucky on drops and/or cannot seem to find what piece is needing to be replaced. Not saying any of those arguments are valid or invalid, but it does seem like the OP isn't exactly in any mood to support his points with actual facts to back up his claim. It just seems like they are all one of the same to him.

And....he said it himself that he hasn't been in a PUG in which this sort of thing occurred (much less a situation like this causing wipes), which makes me wonder a lot of things about his arguments. Sounds like he's basing them around a bunch of hearsay.

EDIT: BTW, I don't think anyone here is really arguing that having only greens on is a bad idea for a heroic. We all seem to get THAT point (it's not like any of us are wearing grays when trying to queue for one or anything). We all seem to (I hope) have SOME common sense when wearing gear.

[Deleted]

Basically what you are asking for is a certain GS to do something, remind you of anything?
You say stop cheating item level, I say stop going to heroics if you are going to stand in fire, even if your ilvl is 363.

You seem to keep saying that it wont matter if you're geared properly but that just is not the case, all gear is close enough atm that a skilled player in green gear could out dps a less skilled player in raid gear all day long, also there are very few heroics where being over 6k dps doesn't even matter anyway, what matters is doing the tactics properly which is something you can never tell from people by using their ilvl.

[Deatvert]

Skills > Gear

If you can't move out of fire or not die to stupid stuff no amount of gear will ever save you.

[darkpower]

Basically what you are asking for is a certain GS to do something, remind you of anything?

Sort of like me in Dalaran once I hit 80 in Wrath (yes, I came in during Wrath. Don't sue me, because I switched over to WoW after 5 years in Final Fantasy XI...don't get me started on trying to find a LEVELING party in THAT game), and seeing people wanting more GS from a player than what's needed to clear the entire raid. Seriously, how can anyone get any gear to do ICC if the only way to meet someone's GS requirements is to run ICC a million times to get the gear to begin with? It was used more as a crutch than a suggestion.

[brirrspliff]

it's blizzard's fault, really. i don't get why not ONLY the gear you're wearing is accounted for the item lvl. what good does gear that is sitting around in a bag do to the group that is about to enter a heroic dungeon?!

and i find it funny when people don't "want" to do normalmodes because they think that is only for sissys or something, and then fail miserably in heroic versions of the instances because they are wearing like ilvl 320 AND have no clue of the fights.

ps:
in a guild, you don't even need to be on 329 to start heroics. this restriction only counts for the LFD tool. if you go to the entrance of the dungeon, you can start doing heroics right away in all-green quest gear. man that was fun! :-)

[Skyve]

I don't know why so many people have those huuuuuuuuuuge problems with heroics. I myself did all heroics I did with randoms, and in addition to those, I had 2 runs that I healed my undergeard gildmember tank through the instance. And I have 348 itemlevel now, and didn't have too much dropluck (I actually bought the Head, Shoulder, Chest and Legs for heroic badges, and in between also bought the Heirloom robe with +10% xp, so yes, I did quite a number of heroics - all of them with randoms). Yes, sometimes it's hard. Yes, sometimes you wipe. So what? I can't imagine that all your groups are that incredibly bad that this incredible number of people who are whining heroics are too hard aren't to a bigger part the problem themselves.

I mean how else is it possible that I get through any heroic with randoms, while so many other people cry? It should also be of note that I'm playing a priest. I did my first few heroics as a Shadow, so I could gear up until I was comfortable healing, since I had heard an incredible amount of complaints from priests that said they were kicked from a group, simply for being a priest that wants to heal, which apparently meant that the priest class was poorly designed for 85 heroics. But I still tried, and it wasn't really too hard.

[grifty]

To answer your question:

If you look at a green ilvl 318 chest and a blue ilvl 333 socketed chest, you will see the stats are very close when the sockets and bonuses are not used. I pulled one example. http://www.wowhead.com/item=63786 and http://www.wowhead.com/item=57860.

If you don't have a guild to help you, you can find very cheap enchants and gems on the AH. On my server, green gems, even "perfect" green gems are around 5-15g each. Many leveling enchants are around 10-50g each.

"If you are wearing a unenchanted/ungemmed blue it might as well be a green" Where the hell do you get that logic from? The BASE stats of a blue are higher than a green even without sockets or enchants factored into it. Yes enchants and gems are a must at higher levels but the base stats of a blue with sockets will still be higher than a green. The only greens that even come close to blues are the better quest reward greens. And even those don't really compare. Now I'm not saying that is an excuse but I'll tell you right now I have a couple 333 blues that I have no intention of sinking expensive gems/enchants on when I fully intend to replace it and replace it asap.

[Rend]

Hc's aren't that hard if people cc/interrupt/kill the correct target, or if the tank knows how to kite/pull back or if the dps know how to not overaggro and break cc... It's not about gear.

I'd know this because I went and did 4 heroics straight away when I could... And we did fine, they weren't even guild runs.

[SilkforCalde]

Why? I have cheated ilevel on every 85 so far and it's not been an issue. Gear isn't the issue man, bad players are.

---------- Post added 2011-01-03 at 12:55 AM ----------

it's blizzard's fault, really. i don't get why not ONLY the gear you're wearing is accounted for the item lvl. what good does gear that is sitting around in a bag do to the group that is about to enter a heroic dungeon?!

Are you being serious here? Let's say it was different and that you could only queue for a heroic if you were equipped with the gear in your bags and gear in your bags, and not equipped, would not count for your ilevel. What's to stop people from equipping their ilevel set, queueing, and then putting on their real gear when they enter the dungeon?

[rated]

Skills > Gear

If you can't move out of fire or not die to stupid stuff no amount of gear will ever save you.

Nooooooo. All wrong. It's not skills > gear or gear > skills. It's: gear = skills.

Gear takes you the first 50% down the road, your skill with your toon & its abilities take you the last 50%. You can't expect to down a raid boss with out having gear & the ability to play your toon your toon well.

[Gunslinger]

If you're cheating your way into heroics you're dragging the whole group.

There's a reason for the minimum ilvl. I'd hate to see a tank with 100k HP fully buffed getting 2-3 shotted by the first batch of mobs or making the heroic last twice as much because the healer has 40k mana and needs to drink after every single group. Should I mention the DPSers that can barely hit the mobs or even wound them because they do so little damage.

There's one thing to help CC, be alert and overall a great player but look at it this way the 4 other people that have landed with you in that Heroic worked their way into the gear they have, don't be lazy and do it yourself.

I've seen ppl in 320s or less cheat with dungeon tool and it NEVER was smooth/good and what not. Even if there were no wipes the dungeon took twice or more to complete then if I had in my party people with similar skillset and 330+ ilvl gear.

Remember you can get ilvl 333 BEFORE you are 85. No matter your role gear ALWAYS helps. If you are a good player you should already know how much gear helps no matter the role.

If you're a damage dealer in 320s pulling 8k dps then you'd defo pull 12k+ in 330s.
If you're a tank with 110k hp in 320s then healers will defo love you more when you'll have 130k+ in 330s.
If you're a healer with 50k mana in 320s then every1 will be safer with you at 65k+ mana in 330s.

Normals go fast, they drop good gear, please DO THEM so others don't have to struggle.

I've met far 2 many people both skilled and not that were slowing every1 down due to their gear limitations. Don't be lazy and obtain your gear with those quick normal dungeons. I'm sure that in a couple of hours you'll grow from 320s to 330+.

Personally I've mad mostly negative experience with such "cheaters", I do not mean this message as a flame/insult but more as a perspective of how other people that you may encounter feel.

There will always be good people that shine no matter what and I look forward to meet more of such players.

[SilkforCalde]

Nooooooo. All wrong. It's not skills > gear or gear > skills. It's: gear = skills.

Gear takes you the first 50% down the road, your skill with your toon & its abilities take you the last 50%. You can't expect to down a raid boss with out having gear & the ability to play your toon your toon well.

Noooo. All wrong. Skill > Gear. Always. It's not skill = gear. It's skill > gear.

---------- Post added 2011-01-03 at 04:06 AM ----------

I've seen ppl in 320s or less cheat with dungeon tool and it NEVER was smooth/good and what not. Even if there were no wipes the dungeon took twice or more to complete.

That's obviously false. For one, how do you know? Do you inspect every player before the run or just when the run goes bad? If you do inspect everyone every time, that's obviously going to make the run take longer.

So let's say your run was extremely smooth, do you go "hey let me check to see if anyone had cheated their ilevel!" No, you just move on.

And for another, a run with no wipes couldn't POSSIBLY take longer than a run filled with wipes, no matter the level of dps of each player. And if you're going to say that a healer cheating ilevel has to drink more, that's wrong. I cheated my ilevel MASSIVELY on my druid and I didn't have to drink more than 3 times a heroic.

[Void]

If you're cheating your way into heroics you're dragging the whole group...

Very well said,that's the reason for having the minimum iLvl implented for Dungeon Finder.After all,you are meeting RANDOM people,and 329 is the iLvl at which blizzard feels that the average WoW player should be geared enough to do heroics.If you want to go there at iLvl 320,make a premade or go with your guild and enter via the instance portal,there is no gear req for the portal.And as Gunslinger said,with your skill you might pull 8k in 320,but i prefer you to be in 330 and do 12k DPS.After all,if the other DPS suck,i prefer to see the recont listing 12k/7k/6k than 8k/7k/6k

[Zheryn]

Gear is not, never has been, and never will be the criteria that determines whether you can clear an instance or not. You're either good enough to clear it, or you aren't. If people are having issues clearing heroics, it isn't the gear.

It's the people. "Cheating" the system doesn't make it any worse, and instead just exposes further how terrible people are without the gear to hide behind.

This. If you suck you won't clear the heroics even with 340 gear. If you're pro you will clear them in 320 gear.