Should Soul Link just be passive?

[Jessicka]

ot: soullink should be passive since there is not a single scenario you wouldn´t want that buff, 25%less dmg taken is just amazing

This is a complete misnomer by the way. That 25% damage is still happening and will almost entirely be healed by the healer whether they like it or not through their aoe effects. It simply doesn't reduce the amount of healing they're doing, it just makes it easier for them by making the aoe more efficient: if you stand in the melee in their aoe effects without SL up, you'll achieve the exact same effect.

[Jiraiyah]

This is a complete misnomer by the way. That 25% damage is still happening and will almost entirely be healed by the healer whether they like it or not through their aoe effects. It simply doesn't reduce the amount of healing they're doing, it just makes it easier for them by making the aoe more efficient: if you stand in the melee in their aoe effects without SL up, you'll achieve the exact same effect.

That's not a misnomer. Tin foil is a misnomer. Pencil lead is a misnomer. A misnomer is when something is given a misleading name. Like, if your name was Professor McSmartypants, it would be a misnomer.

I'll make this as simple as possible for you. You are doing something wrong if you turn off soul link. Ever. Especially in the scenarios you describe. If your healers find out that is what you are doing, they'll start letting you die, and they'll be right to do so. You're right, the damage IS going somewhere else. Somewhere where YOU can take care of it by either healing the pet or resummoning it. It is YOUR responsibility to take pressure off of your healer. That is more important that a few points of damage.

Actually, no, someone in this thread did come up with one tiny use for it. If you're running a succubus in a pvp environment, are taking DoT damage and want to keep your pet invisible. That doesn't happen enough to off-set the benefits of making it passive though.

[Jessicka]

No, it's a simple decision you make based on whether your pet is dying a lot in an instance. Either everyone is taking too much damage (and probably dying) = use Soul Link. Or, your pet isn't getting enough passive healing but you are otherwise fine = don't exacerbate the problem by activating SL. It's a call I've had to make precisely once, but I'm very glad I have that choice. Don't take it away because fundamentally your only reasoning is that you're too damn lazy to press a button and don't have the experience with the class to realise that there are rare and exceptional circumstances where it can be more of an irritation than a survival tool.

[Jiraiyah]

No, it's a simple decision you make based on whether your pet is dying a lot in an instance. Either everyone is taking too much damage (and probably dying) = use Soul Link. Or, your pet isn't getting enough passive healing but you are otherwise fine = don't exacerbate the problem by activating SL. It's a call I've had to make precisely once, but I'm very glad I have that choice. Don't take it away because fundamentally your only reasoning is that you're too damn lazy to press a button and don't have the experience with the class to realise that there are rare and exceptional circumstances where it can be more of an irritation than a survival tool.

I have years of experience with the class. I've leveled and run three separate warlocks. PvE and PvP. I've also run as a discipline priest, in PvE and PvP. And in absolutely every possible scenario, with the lone exception of the example provided about the succubus' invisibility, it is absolutely never a smart move to remove soul link. The more damage your pet absorbs for you, the better. Period.

You. Are. Wrong.

ok? good.

[Jessicka]

Except when you're causing it to absorb damage that's not getting healed that would otherwise be easily covered by the direct healing you're receiving anyway. Your pet then dies, your damage sucks, the party wipes because the fight dragged out too long and it's back to a 45 min LFD queue.

Ok? Good.

If you'd had years of experience with Warlocks, you'd know that both Affliction and Destruction have managed all those years without SL in PvE; Demonology only took it as it had no choice since it was a leader talent to DPS abilities. Quite frankly, you're massively over-rating the talent if you feel it's a life or death ability in a PvE environment.

[Jiraiyah]

Oh ffs, someone else take over...

[Deleted]

Except when you're causing it to absorb damage that's not getting healed that would otherwise be easily covered by the direct healing you're receiving anyway. Your pet then dies, your damage sucks, the party wipes because the fight dragged out too long and it's back to a 45 min LFD queue.

Ok? Good.

If you'd had years of experience with Warlocks, you'd know that both Affliction and Destruction have managed all those years without SL in PvE; Demonology only took it as it had no choice since it was a leader talent to DPS abilities. Quite frankly, you're massively over-rating the talent if you feel it's a life or death ability in a PvE environment.

The pet can be instantly resummoned if it dies, it gets passively healed from lock and it has aoe damage reduction. I cant think of a situation were you would be more concerned about your pet dying over yourself dying.

[Jessicka]

The pet can be instantly resummoned if it dies, it gets passively healed from lock and it has aoe damage reduction. I cant think of a situation were you would be more concerned about your pet dying over yourself dying.

The situation was Rahj, 3 ranged DPS and a Paladin healer. The healer was very easily able to heal the players with direct heals, but my pet died to a combination of running into fire walls and Radiance via Soul Link; Fel Synergy simply wasn't enough to outheal that. When I insta-resummoned, I opted not to use SL because that was basically what killed it. After that, all was fine.

Now, like I say. I like having that choice. I don't want to be put in a position whereby someone whos argument is:

When I'm rezzed at a BG GY, I have to waste a keyed button on soul link so I can make sure it's always up.

Gets it changed putting me in a position where I have to repeatedly press several buttons in combat to resummon over and over, very likely hard casting after the first time because Soul Burn and Demonic Rebirth are on cooldown.

Soul Link is fine. The problem with loosing it in RBGs is a bug, and no reason to change the talent. Maybe search these or the official forums for the plethora of threads during the last expansion where people were complaining about the inability to click SL off in Arenas where their healer was keeping them up, but the damage they were taking was still killing their pets if you want to see more reasons why you might not want SL up.

[Jiraiyah]

You understand that quote you posted there is about wasting a keybind slot, not wasting time pressing a button, right?

[Jessicka]

You understand that quote you posted there is about wasting a keybind slot, not wasting time pressing a button, right?

Do you think that makes you sound more or less petty?

[Jiraiyah]

Do you think that makes you sound more or less petty?

Do you think not wanting a change that would make things easier on every so you can continue to be bad at playing a warlock makes you sound more or less stupid?

If your pet is taking damage from Soul Link, it is because YOU are taking damage. It is ALWAYS better for you to let your pet take that damage, at least in every PvE scenario. Always. Every single time. Without exception. Period. Healers do not have enough mana for you to make them waste it on you. Sometimes they barely have enough to keep the tank up. If your pet is dying so quickly that you can't use demonic rebirth, then you'd probably be better off putting the damn thing on passive JUST SO YOU CAN KEEP SOUL LINK UP. It's THAT important. Far more important than the damage your pet is doing.

It is MUCH easier for a warlock to maintain his or her own pet's health than your healer. Always. This is not Lich King. Your value is not completely determined by your DPS meter. If you need to take a few seconds to maintain your pet to keep yourself and your group alive, do it. If you're trying to say that the group heals are more than enough to cover the incoming damage, then you're really not hurting the pet that much by letting it take the hits. If a healer has to waste a single spell keeping you alive more than they have to, you are hurting the group. That's it.

Anyway, I've stated my point. If you want to keep sounding stupid, by all means, keep posting. I hand it off to the rest of the warlock community...

[abhichat]

I think the ability that makes Rajh such a pain is Sun strike which leaves a dot on everyone including pets. Personally, I would rather have the choice but there isn't a scenario I can think of where I wouldn't want to use soul link. If your pet is dying mainly from soul link, you are taking too much damage, and therefore doing something wrong to begin with.

[Jessicka]

Let's be clear, there's a very distinct difference between taking too much damage and taking unavoidable damage. The situation I'm refering to is one where my pet is taking what to a player would be avoidable damage, while I am taking unavoidable damage. Unavoidable damage is both obvious and inately healable - during this time I am not going to take any more damage than anyone else; on the contrary I'll be using Drain Life, and if possible Shadow Ward, and perhaps a Healthstone to offset it: If it's that bad, I can Soul Burn the Healthstone for additional health. It's really not like we're short of alternatives to help a healer out in these circumstances.

In the PvP Arena scenario I've seen discussed in the past, people have requested the ability to click off Soul Link during periods of sustained, but not unhealable damage in order to save their pet and utilise it's utility to put a stop to that damage via Seduce, Interupt, Dispel etc.

The logical conclusion of your argument Jiraiyah is that a Warlock, or any pet using class is a detriment to the raid or party, since those pets will soak up Chain Heal and Guardian Spirit bounces intended for players, and count towards the AoE cap on healing effects such as Eflourescence, Healing Rain etc, thus in both cases reducing the healing output to the players themselves. Warlocks would of course offer the absolute worst in this respect since you're expecting them to put out substantially sub-par DPS - up to 30% lower than everyone else - because you expect them to keep their pet on passive as a pure damage soak (which like I say, is not a pure damage soak, since that damage will take away passive heals mentioned above - unless you want to go one step further and have us using Health Funnel to offset that too). That is not the design intent of the game. The very fact that SL provides such substantial mitigation is that because it is balanced around the fact that it is not always desirable and not always helpful; otherwise it would be much closer to a Shadow Priest's Shadowform which offers only 15% mitigation.

[Jiraiyah]

The logical conclusion of your argument Jiraiyah is that a Warlock, or any pet using class is a detriment to the raid or party, since those pets will soak up Chain Heal and Guardian Spirit bounces intended for players, and count towards the AoE cap on healing effects such as Eflourescence, Healing Rain etc, thus in both cases reducing the healing output to the players themselves. Warlocks would of course offer the absolute worst in this respect since you're expecting them to put out substantially sub-par DPS - up to 30% lower than everyone else - because you expect them to keep their pet on passive as a pure damage soak (which like I say, is not a pure damage soak, since that damage will take away passive heals mentioned above - unless you want to go one step further and have us using Health Funnel to offset that too). That is not the design intent of the game. The very fact that SL provides such substantial mitigation is that because it is balanced around the fact that it is not always desirable and not always helpful; otherwise it would be much closer to a Shadow Priest's Shadowform which offers only 15% mitigation.

You are just going out of your way to find some tiny little piece of "right" on this argument and it's ridiculous. Where in my argument do I say anything about pet classes being a detriment to the raid? I'm saying you are a detriment to the raid. If you're turning off Soul Link, you are. Depending on the situation, maybe not a lot, but you're definitely not helping.

Also.. please use your head when you're reading my posts. I'm in no way suggesting you SHOULD put your pet on passive. I'm saying if the damage you're passing on to the pet is so significant that it's killing it faster than you can keep up with it, you'd be taking so much damage that the amount transferred to your pet is far more helpful than the damage the pet supplies. I honestly can't think of a situation so ridiculous that you would actually have to do it. It's just to demonstrate the importance of the spell.

Even if you're in a rare situation where your healer is keeping you up without having to waste any extra mana on you, you're still better off keeping SL up. Maybe you'll get crit. Maybe an add. Maybe pull aggro (hey, it happens sometimes). Even if none of those are happening, you would be taking so little damage that the portion going to the pet should not be making or breaking it's survivability. Hence, there is absolutely no legitimate benefit to turning it off. None. Well, except for that succubus thing, which is rare to the point that it's just not a big deal at all.

Meanwhile, the rest of the warlocks out there have a free keybind and maybe soul link protection while mounted.

[Jessicka]

Meanwhile, the rest of the warlocks out there have a free keybind and maybe soul link protection while mounted.

Again, this is the crux of your argument and yet you're somehow trying to break down the simple fact that being able to choose is a huge benefit. The amount of additional damage you take, per swing/tick, is absolutely trivial. You wont get one shotted anymore, so SL is not the life or death ability it once was. If you are getting hit, or even crit by something strong enough to one shot you then that's a sign that something has already gone terribly wrong and SL wont fix that. You are simply grossly overstating it's usefulness in order to try to make a point of countering my genuine argument in an effort to validate your point of simply wanting to free up a keybind.

Here's a better solution for you: Put Soul Link, Fel Armor, Demon Armor, your Alchemy Flask and all your Demons on a secondary action bar, on the rare occasions you need to cast them after ressing, hit 'Shift+#' and press those buttons, hit 'Shift+1' and return to your usual combat action bar setup. Space freed up on your regular panels, and I keep my freedom of choice over SL.

[Sableye]

I cant think of a reason not to, like the old master demonologyst was a passive buff, also off topic but i foundout the hard way if ur low on hp health funnel can be fatal, i didnt take any damage from anything and i expected it to fizzle out

[gualdhar]

I don't understand why this argument is continuing. Basically, it seems to boil down to convenience vs. utility. Either you get the "convenience" of having it up all the time without casting it, or you have the "utility" of removing it if and when the situation warrants. In the end, utility, no matter how minor, wins. If a warlock forgets to put SL on, and should have it on, then call him out. But not every build has massive pet healing. The main affliction raid build specifically doesn't include a single point in demo, removing any way for a warlock to heal his pet except health funnel. And there is no realistic way for a warlock to keep his pet up through unavoidable damage with SL up using only health funnel. Unless you're demo, instant cast summons are limited.

If you want another example, heres one: As destro fighting Forgemaster in grim batol, I can use my imp's singe magic to remove the debuff during sword phase for basically no real cost. However, if my imp dies, it could catch the healer off-guard if I can't remove the debuff anymore. So, I click off SL and use other tools to mitigate damage. Everyone wins.

[Pridelock]

I don't understand why this argument is continuing. Basically, it seems to boil down to convenience vs. utility. Either you get the "convenience" of having it up all the time without casting it, or you have the "utility" of removing it if and when the situation warrants. In the end, utility, no matter how minor, wins. If a warlock forgets to put SL on, and should have it on, then call him out. But not every build has massive pet healing. The main affliction raid build specifically doesn't include a single point in demo, removing any way for a warlock to heal his pet except health funnel. And there is no realistic way for a warlock to keep his pet up through unavoidable damage with SL up using only health funnel. Unless you're demo, instant cast summons are limited.

If you want another example, heres one: As destro fighting Forgemaster in grim batol, I can use my imp's singe magic to remove the debuff during sword phase for basically no real cost. However, if my imp dies, it could catch the healer off-guard if I can't remove the debuff anymore. So, I click off SL and use other tools to mitigate damage. Everyone wins.

This pretty much is a complete answer for this post. Couldn't agree more - anyone that wants to disagree needs to re-read the entire post and take it in.

[Deleted]

The situation was Rahj, 3 ranged DPS and a Paladin healer. The healer was very easily able to heal the players with direct heals, but my pet died to a combination of running into fire walls and Radiance via Soul Link; Fel Synergy simply wasn't enough to outheal that. When I insta-resummoned, I opted not to use SL because that was basically what killed it. After that, all was fine.

Now, like I say. I like having that choice. I don't want to be put in a position whereby someone whos argument is:

Gets it changed putting me in a position where I have to repeatedly press several buttons in combat to resummon over and over, very likely hard casting after the first time because Soul Burn and Demonic Rebirth are on cooldown.

Soul Link is fine. The problem with loosing it in RBGs is a bug, and no reason to change the talent. Maybe search these or the official forums for the plethora of threads during the last expansion where people were complaining about the inability to click SL off in Arenas where their healer was keeping them up, but the damage they were taking was still killing their pets if you want to see more reasons why you might not want SL up.

Im not suggesting making it passive, I just think you should have it on at all times if you are a good warlock especially in pvp.

[gherkin]

The amount of work required to turn Soul Link passive, test it, fix the bugs, test it some more... I'd rather have the button on my bar and have them spend that time on something important, like turning ISF into a non-bullshit talent. Some of you don't want a button and that's fine.

I'm locking this. Stop calling each other names when you can't think of a good response to their logical reasoning - we can all disagree without being immature.