Hit isn't king anymore - how and why

[vom]

Yes, and now tell us if you've ever been (or anyone you know) in this particular situation. People always try to bring up the 'what ifs' when they're confronted with facts.

I've been raiding with 14.99% hit rating, we've got nefarian to kill and we'll progress on to heroics. On nuke fights I easily sustain ~18k dps. No problem at all. Sure, I miss a few hits now and then, but the ones I do land are hard and frequent enough to make those few misses negligible. Never more than 3 spells in a long fight though and often I don't miss any at all.

These are the numbers, these are the facts, it has been repeated over and over again. Now if you want to go for the hard-cap, knock yourself out, just don't pretend it's the best way to go. It's your personal preference which is more often than not, based on a feeling - not a fact.



It's called ignorance:

* The world is round
- No it's not, I've always learned that it's flat!
* Yes, but we've got proof it's round now. Look. *Hands over proof*
- *looks at proof* - No, it's flat!


What's up with all the non-warlocks here speculating btw?

More than likely its because people saw it on the front page, like I did, or noticed that he said it was true for all casters and they disagree.

Someone else said it before, but I would rather be hit capped and not have to worry about a flame shock or a lava burst missing as an ele shammy.

[wg15]

More than likely its because people saw it on the front page, like I did, or noticed that he said it was true for all casters and they disagree.

Someone else said it before, but I would rather be hit capped and not have to worry about a flame shock or a lava burst missing as an ele shammy.

That is an aspect I did not even notive. Different casts. If you miss with main casts you will loose more and more dps.

[Penatar]

Does not make sence. It has never been the problem how much spellpower you need to get 1% damage increase. And it is still not. It is important that your spells hit the opponent. You could possibly have 5% damage increase because of intellect on your gear. So let's do some math:

Normal Fireball for example hits for 10.000 normal. So you do 5% more Damage per Spell. 10.500 per Fireball. Cast time ist 2 Seconds. in a 5 Minute fight you will hit with 150 Fireballs. With 5% More Damage on Every Fireball you do 1.575.000 Damage if you hit everything.

But now there is a problem. Let's see, you have 5% less Hit for that. Every 20th cast misses. So you will miss 7 Fireballs. In the end you did 1.502.500 Damage.

Now let's see if you are hit capped without 5% extra damage. Now you are at 1.500.000. Nearly at the same, every cast Hits. And this is just for 5 Minutes with a math when you have 12% Hit as a Caster. If you fall more below, you will do less damage than with Hit. If the fight is longer, you will do less damage than with Hit. And RNG hates you, don't forget that, you may miss more and more and more.

Nice thought, but completely Wrong.

Your math is faulty. 102 hit=1% hit while 102 int=1.45% dps. You were doing your math as 102 int being 1%. So you need to change that 5% bonus damage calculation to 7.5% then you'll see that you're the one who's wrong.

[Hellfury]

Rather useless post imo. Int is rather a static stat that comes with gear mostly.

Everyone already know this and when ppl say hit is the best stat under capped its because they are referring to the so called "green stats" hit/Crit/haste/mastery those that are reforge-able

Ppl with half a brain should already gem for int for red slots, and since most gem bonuses are good put int/hit on blue slots.

There are no Cata enchants that make u chose between hit and intellect.

And when it comes to consumables, serious guilds already supplying feasts in raids, and for warlocks feasts give intellect

[Volitar]

Hit isn't king.



Until you miss Haunt, SF, etc.

Read the post
Actually read it
See the words?
int>hit

[jontaxe]

This thought is only wright with numbers that won't never ever appear. Then it is wright, but only then. But your math is not possible to be wright. This numbers can't happen.

Way to miss the point. Entirely. Completely.

Of course it's numbers that will never, ever appear!! That's the point of absurdly extreme examples! Argh!!

Maybe if I restate it it might work for you:

My point, and the OPs point, is that the common held belief that hit is king, and you must always, absolutely, positively have to get to hit cap no matter what other stats you burn can possibly be wrong. It is right to hit cap if the numbers go one way (like in all of WotLK). It is wrong to hit cap if the numbers go another way (why do you think DW melee never hit cap?). And some times it's close enough that it is a judgment call (his assertion for warlocks right now).

Now we can argue about that math, but stating ALWAYS CAP HITS n00b!!!!! means that, well, you didn't pay attention in math class, and should probably be doing that instead of theorycrafting.

[Agroculture]

All this is nice and all,but I miss a spellsteal and we wipe on Maloriak.Now,I don't claim any intricate knowledge of warlocks.Do you guys have any spell that is crucial to a fight in ways other than your personal dps?

[Tusq]

I can see the discussion has gone further than warlocks. I think the guy means only for warlocks.

Atleast in the early Halfus days when i was on Wind Shear duty and i had 16,85% hit he got some spells through which wasnt good. But when more gear hits people will have the hit cap without any gems/enchants, so what's the big fuzz?

[DrNemesis]

Is there considered to be a rough soft cap which would generally be dangerous to be at or lower than? I can appreciate it would be hard to pin an exact figure on it, dependant on other stats.

[Underfoot]

~70int=1%.

This is assuming you are hit capped, right ?, If a spell miss, the overall benefit of Int is diminished.

Also, Int does not not benefit spells, which do no dmg such as curse of elements, in addition missing a spell can be devastating for your rotation and game-flow.

Mind you, I won't miscredit Int for being a very strong dps increasing stat, but hit rating has too many incalculable factors, which somehow has to be factored in as well.

[Jessicka]

No. The higher Intellect simply means your spells are hitting hard enough to outweigh the loss to those that are missing. That is all. That's what the maths says. The maths is sound.

I don't understand how people are finding that concept difficult.

[pyrostorm9001]

its a simple concept, all gear of the same ilvl comes with the same int (and stam for that matter) the only thing that changes is gem sockets and the bonus. and the 2nd stats (hit crit master haste etc) Int IS > hit. no other way about it. but hit is a 2nd stat. Hit > mastery crit haste etc visit your local reforger and get your hit that way.

all thats left then is to gem correctly. depending on socket + bonus that could mean pure int or int/2ndstat

eg red sock + 20int = gem pure int
blue socket + 20int = gem hit/int (hit/int = 20hit/20int) resulting in 40int + 20hit

come on guys this shouldn't be that hard of a concept to grasp

[audioslave90]

but if you miss thats no dps at all so therefore HIT is still best stat

[Ghrog74]

What's up with all the non-warlocks here speculating btw?

We are popping in because the OP made it a blanket statement that covered all DPS classes in his post.

As for Hit, yes, there is a certain point where that last little tiny bit of hit starts to suffer from diminishing returns (not the WoW version of the phrase btw, but the common outside version) basically where misses become so rediculously rare that it truely doesn't matter.

The question becomes, where is that point where the cap suddenly becomes less important statistically. Without serious numbers to back it up, I would wager that that particular percentage is different for different classes. Going with the Ele Shaman example earlier, a missed Flame shock is a huge hit to the rotation sicne now suddenly that Lava Burst you are waiting to cast is no longer available to instant crit until the shock C/D is available again, plus without the FS dot you don't have lava Flows, and on top of that if Fulmination pops up, that gets pushed back even further due to the shared Shock cooldown and FS's priority over it.

That is a huge chunk of damage that is suddenly gone.

For other DPS caster classes, I cannot speak to them with the same degree of confidence since my Lock hasn't been touched yet in Cata and is still sitting at Lv 80. But for some classes that point of diminishing returns is very very close to the cap, so much so that you are probably better off just capping it to be safe.

[andromalia]

but if you miss thats no dps at all so therefore HIT is still best stat

Seriously, you're an idiot. Read the post. The benefit of int outweighs the loss from missing.

NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

[Ghrog74]

I can see the discussion has gone further than warlocks. I think the guy means only for warlocks.

Actually, as you can see below in the quote from the first sentance of the OP...

This goes for all casters too,

Nope, he didn't just mean Warlocks.

[llandrywyn]

Halfus Wyrmbreaker. Shadow Nova. Interrupt spell ... misses. Raid wipes.

Have fun consoling yourself with your math as the rest of your raid decides who to replace you with.

[andromalia]

Halfus Wyrmbreaker. Shadow Nova. Interrupt spell ... misses. Raid wipes.

Have fun consoling yourself with your math as the rest of your raid decides who to replace you with.

If you have your warlocks interrupting halfus you need a new raid leader.

[thedarkone]

No no and no again. This linear way of thinking, while clever number play, completely ignores reality, and reality stipulates that you take into consideration such basic facts as missing a big crit (4th stack of arcane blast crit for ex, yummy at 70k+) or an important hard cast like a lock's improved Soul Fire, anyone of which would be disastrous to your dps. This will become an even bigger issue as you gain more gear with +crit, resulting in horrendous and very avoidable losses.
verily, tis only a fool who doth not reforge the leastest useful of crit, haste or mastery unto hit .... till tis capped of course.

[Coldarion]

Without actually reading the other posts aside from OP's, i got 1 question for you.

Why are you comparing the main stat to a second stat? Hit will always be king of the second stats, and thus should always be capped imo