Arcane and Haste: Among the worst stat

[MisterSheep]

Every time i see haste on my gear... i just hate it... deeply.

I know i can reforge it, but i'll still keep 60% of it.

Our whole damage and rotation depends on our mana conservation, while haste currently increase the rate at which we burn it. Very bad. Very.

I'm talking about PvE right now though, cuz i'm sure haste is very good for Arcane in PvP.

Our current mana regeration is static. If there were a glyph or talent that made Mage Armor stack with haste, maybe haste would be a decent stat, but right now, it really sucks.

I'm guessing right now our stat prioriry(once hit capped) is Int > Mastery > Crit > Haste

I feel right now that haste actualy lowers arcane's dps in PvE.

[crazymunch]

You stat priority is Int > Hit > Mastery = Haste > Crit

Crit is awful for arcane for starters. If you know how to manage your mana properly, haste will increase your DPS a lot. If you don't, then you should respec frost where mana is not a concern.

[Deleted]

Am sorry to say your not exactly right either as haste isn't better than crit for arcane in current gear.

[crazymunch]

Am sorry to say your not exactly right either as haste isn't better than crit for arcane in current gear.

Well, your approximate SEP values for current gear are:

Stat SEP
Intellect 1.52
Hit .88
Crit .36
Haste .53
Mastery .54

So Haste is worth 1.5x crit, making it better.

[Roostor]

Well, your approximate SEP values for current gear are:

Stat SEP
Intellect 1.52
Hit .88
Crit .36
Haste .53
Mastery .54

So Haste is worth 1.5x crit, making it better.

Please elaborate on the specifics of the test run, including the Simulator, the simulated Arcane rotation, and why you chose such a rotation for Arcane.

[Deleted]

They are what they are values and dose not take into acount mana usage and the rng factor so they mean nothing

[Slaytanicus]

I don't understand why crit would be bad. During burn phase, i get the argument that haste is better than crit. But during conserve phases, which lasts longer than burn phases, many of your casts will be instant and I would think that crit pull ahead because of this. Keep in mind that I'm only level 50 on my mage and I only believe in trial and error, not sims and EJ.

[MisterSheep]

I don't understand why crit would be bad. During burn phase, i get the argument that haste is better than crit. But during conserve phases, which lasts longer than burn phases, many of your casts will be instant and I would think that crit pull ahead because of this. Keep in mind that I'm only level 50 on my mage and I only believe in trial and error, not sims and EJ.

I'm guessing it depends on the amount of mana you have. If your haste makes you go below 30-40% mana before Arcane Power end, you have too much haste. Right now my ilvl is 329 so my mana isnt that high and haste makes me go oom and loose mana faster that i can regen it. But as you said, with Arcane Barrage being instant, and mana conservation being very important, i'd say crit is still better than haste, at least until you have enough mana to keep your regen under control.

People might still have WotLK mindset, where mana was infinite and we could spam Arcane Blastx4 for like a whole minute in a row or more, haste was very good at that time. But in a lot of case people still have misconcept (especialy on healers and mages) where they still aren't used to the new class mechanics in Cata

[MirielTheMage]

Haste and mastery are roughly equivalent and superior to crit. The explanation has two parts.

First, haste will always increase the number of casts you are able to complete in a set amount of time. We don't have DoTs as arcane, we only deal damage when we cast. More casts > fewer casts. Haste is always directly influencing your damage.

Second, the retort should be, less more powerful casts could be better than more less powerful ones. This is true but the solution is mastery not crit.

Playing arcane means trying to spend as much time near 100% mana as possible. The better you play, the more powerful mastery becomes. Mastery will always increase the damage of a skilled mage. Crit only increases the probability that your cast will become a critical strike and therefore deal more damage. Just like haste, mastery yields direct influence, crit does not.


If you're having problems, find your mana neutral rotation and work from there. It probably isn't static. Remember AB stacks no longer influence AM so there is no penalty for casting AM without a stack.

[Roostor]

Haste and mastery are roughly equivalent and superior to crit. The explanation has two parts.

First, haste will always increase the number of casts you are able to complete in a set amount of time. We don't have DoTs as arcane, we only deal damage when we cast. More casts > fewer casts. Haste is always directly influencing your damage.

Second, the retort should be, less more powerful casts could be better than more less powerful ones. This is true but the solution is mastery not crit.

Playing arcane means trying to spend as much time near 100% mana as possible. The better you play, the more powerful mastery becomes. Mastery will always increase the damage of a skilled mage. Crit only increases the probability that your cast will become a critical strike and therefore deal more damage. Just like haste, mastery yields direct influence, crit does not.


If you're having problems, find your mana neutral rotation and work from there. It probably isn't static. Remember AB stacks no longer influence AM so there is no penalty for casting AM without a stack.

Just a note: haste only yields influence if it saves enough time to cast additional spells. Suppose you have a 2 sec cast time and 1% haste. Your cast time is now 1.98 seconds. In 100 normal casts, you have successfully chained 101 with your 1% haste. However, if the boss dies after 95 casts, your haste will have provided 0 benefit over the course of the fight (unless there are special circumstances where shaving off .02 seconds allowed you to cast a spell before moving or something). Think of it more like a staircase than the immediate return linear benefit Mastery provides.

[Tickspoon]

Think of it more like a staircase than the immediate return linear benefit Mastery provides.

That's only true if all you're doing is chain-casting the entire fight. As soon as mobility is factored in, it is no longer true.

Instead of modelling a fight as say 5 minutes of continual casting, it should be modelled as many 'cast-windows' with variable duration according to some distribution. With that model, haste looks more linear than staircase.

[MisterSheep]

Just a note: haste only yields influence if it saves enough time to cast additional spells. Suppose you have a 2 sec cast time and 1% haste. Your cast time is now 1.98 seconds. In 100 normal casts, you have successfully chained 101 with your 1% haste. However, if the boss dies after 95 casts, your haste will have provided 0 benefit over the course of the fight (unless there are special circumstances where shaving off .02 seconds allowed you to cast a spell before moving or something). Think of it more like a staircase than the immediate return linear benefit Mastery provides.

I agree with you, but it's mainly a luck-of-the-draw issue. Haste can be better than crit for some points, and crit can be better than haste on some case.

Now about haste, don't you think haste can be quite treacherous sometime? Let's say you have a very unlucky chain of straight casts that doesn't proc Arcane Missiles, it can actualy push your mana under your confortable zone of let's say 90+ % mana (trust me i have under 5% haste and it still happens to me a lot where i get like 10 casts before i get AM proc'ing) A low amount of haste would allow your mage armor to build up mana more smoothly.

I also checked the bonus given per ratings for crit and haste:

XX amount of crit rating gives 1% crit chance

XX amount of haste gives 1,3% haste bonus

Now haste might seem better than crit for the extra value, but while crit is a flat 1% damage increase (well an average of 1% over a long-term fight) haste actualy makes you burn mana faster, and our mastery depends on our mana%...

Soo..... i would say

If you're lvl 85 and dont have much mana pool: Int *> Mastery > Crit > Haste

If you have a good mana pool that allows an easy control over mana and a smooth regen: int > Mastery > Haste > Crit

But it's all theorycrafting. Right now i have 70k mana and i do know it can be hard to keep my mana over 90%, and it becomes impossible to do if someone pulls heroism (or if i pull time warp myself)

[Roostor]

That's only true if all you're doing is chain-casting the entire fight. As soon as mobility is factored in, it is no longer true.

Instead of modelling a fight as say 5 minutes of continual casting, it should be modelled as many 'cast-windows' with variable duration according to some distribution. With that model, haste looks more linear than staircase.

Are you sure about that? If you reset the chain-cast window, then it seems to me that haste would still be staircase, and less effective, depending on the windows. Raid-buffs aside, gearing for 4% haste is 1 extra cast every 25 casts. If your window doesn't provide time for an extra there, the second you move and refresh the window, you cancel the benefit of haste, as it's a brand new, independent window.

It's highly possible that I'm missing some lame statistical application here, so if you have some formulas behind it, I'd be more than happy to check them out.

[Imnick]

So a stat is not good for you?
Ok. Get gear without that stat on it.